Let's talk about the 3-4-3

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Post by Curtinho Tue Dec 30, 2014 3:28 am

Yeah the whole thing about it not being sustainable sounds like rubbish. Burnley is a team of low talent, high energy players that run all over the pitch and make things difficult for any team. As soon as we started pressing and they ran out of a bit of gas we were controlling the match and creating a bunch of scoring opportunities. Any team will have trouble with hard pressing teams. Can you remember more than one scoring opportunity that Burnley actually created though? Aside from the shot off the post, which was an individual mistake by Skrtel, they didn't really create much of anything. This tactic has been very defensively sound.

I'm optimistic about it, but I have been since the beginning.

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Post by Fahim89 Tue Dec 30, 2014 7:10 am

There's no point fighting over this cause as soon as Sturridge is back BR would tinker with the formation and put in place something that best suits this team and fits in the best in form players. That's how it has always been :coffee:
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Post by Art Morte Tue Dec 30, 2014 7:49 am

I've said this before, but I think the main reason the 3-4-3 has looked good for us (apart from the Burnley game) is that it has coincided with Coutinho, Lallana and Sterling playing together in attack. Before that it used to be one or two of them. Heck, we had both Coutinho and Lallana starting on the bench in the Basel game, that makes me :facepalm: so hard just thinking about it. After that it was the ManU game and the current trio started together for the first time and we looked much better in attack. If our four most attacking players in the 3-4-3 were now what they were in the Basel game: Lambert, Sterling, Gerrard and Henderson, believe me, we would be hating the 3-4-3.

I think we have now definitely got the attacking part right (or at least much better than what it was up to the Basel game) and that shouldn't be messed with much. But I don't think the 3-4-3 in itself is necessarily what we should keep long-term, I think you could tinker with the defence and midfield, switch to the 4-3-3 Christmas Tree or Diamond, but not the wide version of it.

Anyway, the way I see it we'll stick with 3-4-3 for now and the next real test for it will be on 10 January when we play Sunderland away.
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Post by Art Morte Tue Dec 30, 2014 7:54 am

Also, Swansea didn't even try to counter the 3-4-3 tactically, unlike Burnley did. Monk simply came to play their own 4-2-3-1 what they would play at home / when they're the better team and that just wasn't the right decision by him. The Swansea game wasn't a tactical test for the 3-4-3, but don't get me wrong, I don't mind keeping the 3-4-3 as long as it's working for us.
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Post by Fahim89 Tue Dec 30, 2014 8:01 am

Art don't spoil the good mood man!!!!! :facepalm:
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Post by Red Alert Tue Dec 30, 2014 8:11 am

Oh ffs settle.

Happens after every game.

We win one "Ohhhh its sooo good etc" lose the next three and "its suspect".

End of the day, it's a stupid formation. This happened exactly like last year where we lost more points than we gained from it.

Playing Coutinho, Lallana and Sterling in the same formation isn't hard. And you don't need a 343 to play them together ffs.

@Fahim: How's he spoiling the mood? He's talking with sense. The reason we won today is because Monk is clueless. lmao
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Post by Helmer Tue Dec 30, 2014 4:11 pm

No wonder we looked better when we played Manquillo and Moreno as wingbacks. That is what matters in 3-4-2-1, it wont work so effectively if you have player like Hendo as wingback. The reason you need to press properly is because if you allow the opposition team to play the pass behind the wingback, you are inviting trouble every time.

Hames is right btw, this is 3-4-2-1 and it makes a slight difference from usual 3-4-3 and it wokrs in our favour. Having two technical and hardworking players like Coutinho and Lallana behind Sterling makes things tick from time to time.

Also, I would just make one change in yesterdays team and that is starting Markovic ahead of Manquillo. @Sepp, the reason it wont work long term is, every time your three attacking players (Cou, Lallana dnSterling) are further ahead. There is huge space in the midfield and a quality CM and one quality player in the position of CAM or winger, together will create many chaces whenever that happens. Also, if the opposition team is pressing in the right manner, you need calmness and skills, from your outer CBs (Sakho and Can) and also from wingbacks (Manquillo and Moreno) eg. yesterday the pass Sakho played to Moreno for our first goal. Just imagine, if all of of the three attacking players (Sterling. Can and Coutinho) are dropping deep to collect the ball in from the midfield, it wont work so effectively.

Right now there is one good thing which is happening is, playing long balls to find any of Cou or Lallana or Sterling. So that negates the effect of pressing by the opposition. Another good thing instructed by BR in this formation is one of the CB runs with the forward to win the ball and one of the CM is there to collect the second ball or just be there to fill the space.

3-4-2-1 has its own positives and negatives, lets see how long we sustain with that :coffee:

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Post by DeletedUser#1 Tue Dec 30, 2014 4:42 pm

Some of you are really really sad fans.

If you can't enjoy a good win and performance and credit the players and manager for it....yet whenever we lose, you're the first to call them names and ask for their head. I hope you never step food at Anfield.

If you give stick when we're bad, give praise when we're good too. You can't have it one way.

I hope we keep winning and winning because I genuinely think it annoys and pisses some of you off whenever we put 3 points on the board.

You've already made your mind up on the manager/formation/players and would rather to be proved RIGHT than to actually see the team you supposedly "support" do well.

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Post by iftikhar Tue Dec 30, 2014 4:53 pm

I guess Rodgers will persists with 343 (OK fine, 3421) for another three games till Sturridge returns. But what happens next!!! If he still persist with the same formation, that will mean either dropping one of Coutinho or Lallana or slotting Raheem in wing-back role.
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Post by DeletedUser#1 Tue Dec 30, 2014 4:54 pm

iftikhar wrote:I guess Rodgers will persists with 343 (OK fine, 3421) for another three games till Sturridge returns. But what happens next!!! If he still persist with the same formation, that will mean either dropping one of Coutinho or Lallana or slotting Raheem in wing-back role.


Or alternatively. Sturridge goes to Sterling's place, and Sterling plays RWB smoking . Sterling was very dangerous vs. Arsenal when he switched to LWB after arrivals of Borini.

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Post by McAgger Tue Dec 30, 2014 4:56 pm

Regardless of the arguments made (which all of you make very good sense obviously) I still don't believe it will be sustainable. I would hope we ride this formation as long as it works even with Dan back. Eventually the formation will be found out whether you want to admit it or not and we could probably go to the 4-4-2 diamond that worked well with Studge at the beginning of the season. But don't break what's working I Say and plus I really enjoy our football right now.
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Post by Curtinho Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:20 pm

Natalie Portman wrote:Or alternatively. Sturridge goes to Sterling's place, and Sterling plays RWB smoking . Sterling was very dangerous vs. Arsenal when he switched to LWB after arrivals of Borini.

Another alternative, since Manquillo is on loan, inexperienced and a lesser talent than others anyway, would be shifting Coutinho right to midfield. He's still central, and has freedom to roam.

Can - Lovren - Sakho
Henderson - Coutinho - Lucas - Moreno
Lallana - Sterling
Sturridge

IMO when healthy with our current team that would be the best set-up. If necessary Gerrard, Markovic and even Skrtel can be subbed on.
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Post by McAgger Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:28 pm

You're not playing FIFA mate Laughing
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Post by DeletedUser#1 Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:35 pm

If I recall correctly DCMJ , we played 4-2-3-1 vs. Saints and City (in both games we were underwhelming, bar the first 40 mins at Etihad), and only did the diamond vs. Spurs.

Thing is, if we go diamond, I only want Sterling at the tip. He's better than anyone else there. Which means one of Balo/Borini/etc will play instead of Coutinho/Lallana.

If we get another top top striker, I'd advocate diamond as well...but not with the current lot of strikers. No one is worthy of partnering Sturridge.

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Post by Curtinho Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:42 pm

Don't call me James wrote:You're not playing FIFA mate Laughing

I don't really understand this comment.
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Post by Art Morte Tue Dec 30, 2014 6:18 pm

Natalie Portman wrote:Some of you are really really sad fans.

If you can't enjoy a good win and performance and credit the players and manager for it....yet whenever we lose, you're the first to call them names and ask for their head. I hope you never step food at Anfield.

If you give stick when we're bad, give praise when we're good too. You can't have it one way.

I hope we keep winning and winning because I genuinely think it annoys and pisses some of you off whenever we put 3 points on the board.

You've already made your mind up on the manager/formation/players and would rather to be proved RIGHT than to actually see the team you supposedly "support" do well.


Of course we can and do all enjoy a good win, but that doesn't mean you cannot ponder how things will turn out in the future. And hey, we lost 3 - 0 with this formation at Old Trafford, which is nothing short of a nightmare, but I think all of us saw the positives about this formation in that game. So, nothing wrong with analyzing the positives after defeat and the possible potholes after victory.
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Post by iftikhar Fri Jan 02, 2015 2:29 pm

How will 3421 look like once Sturridge returns (and till he stays fit)???

I would advocate something like this:

------------Mignolet------------
-------Skrtel-Toure-Sakho------
Markovic-Henderson-Emre-Raheem
--------Coutinho-Lallana--------
------------Sturridge------------

Johnson, Flanagan, Enrique, Manquillo & Moreno to be used for substitute & rotation for wing-back role; Gerrard or Lucas to be used for substitute & rotation for midfield role; Balotelli to be used for substitute & rotation for Lallana or Coutinho while Lambert to be used for substitute & rotation for Sturridge.

However, I believe we will see something like this:

------------Mignolet------------
-------Emre-Skrtel-Sakho-------
Johnson-Henderson-Lucas-Moreno
--------Coutinho-Raheem--------
------------Sturridge------------
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Post by Art Morte Fri Jan 02, 2015 3:03 pm

I kinda hope we drop this 3 CBs thing. I rather have that extra man in midfield than in central defence. Unless we get two people playing excellently in the wing-back positions.
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Post by Curtinho Fri Jan 02, 2015 3:15 pm

I hope Johnson never plays for Liverpool again to be honest, but we all know better. I shudder at the thought of how that right side will look defensively if Johnson is inserted into our current formation.

Full healthy I'd like to see:

Home:

Can - Lovren - Sakho
Sterling - Henderson - Lucas - Markovic
Coutinho - Lallana
Sturridge

Away:

Can - Skrtel - Sakho
Manquillo - Henderson - Lucas - Enrique
Sterling - Coutinho
Sturridge
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Post by iftikhar Fri Jan 02, 2015 9:07 pm

Art Morte wrote:I kinda hope we drop this 3 CBs thing. I rather have that extra man in midfield than in central defence. Unless we get two people playing excellently in the wing-back positions.


----------Mignolet-----------
Manquillo-Skrtel-Sakho-Moreno
------------Emre------------
-----Henderson-Coutinho-----
-----------Raheem-----------
------Balotelli-Sturridge-------

----------Mignolet-----------
Manquillo-Skrtel-Sakho-Moreno
------------Emre------------
-----Henderson-Coutinho-----
Raheem----Sturridge---Lallana
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Post by Helmer Tue Jan 20, 2015 11:26 pm

So our defense with 3-4-3 :

well that three at the back is really helping our CBs to cope up with a striker. When two CBs ae closing down someone, there is free CB either to receive the ball or to close down the other player who is in free space. Or when one CB goes forward to challenge the ball, you would always have two CBs to cover up the space. Then you always have two hardworking midfielders to take care of the rest.
The problem occurs when opposition use width and you have really skillfull and intelligent players using the space properly.

Is it really helping though? At least it seems so from last few games. Lets see if we can win against Big Sam :coffee:

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Post by DeletedUser#1 Tue Jan 20, 2015 11:59 pm

So, what happened to this system being exposed against a decent team?

I mean, if any manager can pin-point its weaknesses and destroy us, it should be Mourinho, right ?

3-4-3 is a masterstroke by Rodgers.

Just like last season, when at mid-way point, Rodgers found a way to transform our team (pushing Gerrard back and playing 4-3-3 with Coutinho as MF and then diamond), he's done it again this season. It took a while, but what's done is done. This formation gets the absolute best of nearly all our players.

There is no a single player in our team that isn't comfortable with this and that's the most important thing.

Sakho and Skrtel look better. Moreno and Markovic are much more suited to being wingbacks than fullbacks.

Lucas and Henderson form a wonderful too and it overcrowds the middle with Coutinho/Lallana/Sterling allowing them quick one and twos and interchanges.

All missing is DStudge who will hopefully be back in a couple of weeks.

Well done Brendan and well done the lads. Positive we'll have a great finish to the season.

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Post by mr-r34 Wed Jan 21, 2015 12:07 am

After 1 game against a team who sits back? Like i said before Rodgers wil be judged on the next 2 months, signs look very promising so far, we'll just have to wait and see.
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Post by Helmer Wed Jan 21, 2015 12:08 am

Sepi, I had really thought that space behind Markovic and Moreno would get exposed , and it would lead to chaos in defense because Lucas and Hendo would have too much to cover every time in transition. Till now it seems like it has worked.

But I had also said that the key to 3-4-3 is pressing well when we lose the ball to minimise the space for opposition or counter pressing, whatever it is called.  Rodgers does very well know how to use it. It would be awesome if we can get positive results in the whole remaining season. Because 3-4-2-1 is really an awesome tactical stuff :coffee:

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Post by McAgger Wed Jan 21, 2015 3:53 am

Sepp, if you are talking about me saying this formation is not sustainable in the long run, this is not what I meant.

When I say in the long run, I mean we will not win the CL with this formation or be one of the best sides in the world again. I just can't see this formation doing that.

But like I said this is my personal formation and I use it on FIFA and FM all the time. I just never thought it would actually work in real life so well and Brendan has done well implementing and great credit to him.

But I still don't think it's going to be sustainable down the line.
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Post by DeletedUser#1 Wed Jan 21, 2015 4:14 am

Don't call me James wrote:Sepp, if you are talking about me saying this formation is not sustainable in the long run, this is not what I meant.

When I say in the long run, I mean we will not win the CL with this formation or be one of the best sides in the world again. I just can't see this formation doing that.

But like I said this is my personal formation and I use it on FIFA and FM all the time. I just never thought it would actually work in real life so well and Brendan has done well implementing and great credit to him.

But I still don't think it's going to be sustainable down the line.


McAgger!

We've won ONE CL and no league titles in quarter of a decade. We haven't been a "best" top top team for 25 years now. Be it with 4 man defense, 3 men defense, 5 men defense, 2 DMs, 1 up top, 2 up top etc.

It's not like we have anything to lose.

Before tonight, Chelsea had average 16 shots in each game this season. The least amount they had was 5. Tonight they had 2. One was a penalty and the other one was a Felipe Luis shot that probably landed at Goodison Park.

Most people's worries about this system was the defensive aspect of it, as opposed to offensive. So in my mind, as long as it improves our defense without sacrificing our offense (As it has done to this date), then it's the way to go.

We'll have a better look of its efficiency going forward when DStudge is back hopefully.

As much as I hate Mourinho, (And trust me I really hated Hitler as well), there aren't many better tactical managers to exploit a flawed system....well, perhaps we'll know a bit better about defensive solidarity of this system next Tuesday when Chelsea will push more men forward (in turn allowing us to counter effectively. Newcastle could have had a bucketload there, so can we).

I think the one thing that goes missing here is that in this formation we're allowed to press a lot more aggressively compared to the ones before, allowing in higher intensity games and fast paced passes.

even at RedCafe's match thread tonight, they were walking off to it and were pissed off why LVG can't make their 3-5-2 be as good going forward as this Laughing

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