Defending Discussion || Individuals ? Coaching ? Keeper ? Midfield Problem?

We all knew it'd be a tremendous task to score 100+ league goals again this season, so we had to tighten up defensively. 6 games into the season, and our defense doesn't look any better.

To put it in perspective, Our defense is the second most expensively assembled defense in the WORLD. Only PSG's cost more. So what is it ?

Sakho looks a world beater for France and nullifies Diego Costa, yet he looks a nervous wreck playing with us.

Lovren was a calm leader at heart of Saints' defense, and he's been a bag of nerve here.

Skrtel has done well in other defensive set ups (including winning POTY) yet we always concede with him in the site.

Is it the personnel or does the problem lie deeper ?

For example, would you rather have our centre backs or Reid-Tomkins? Is it the system, or lack of midfield protection ?

Do you think our defense will look as clueless and bad if we have a Matic/Fernando in front of them instead of Gerrard? Or if we have a commanding leader like Valdes drilling into them from behind instead of the Belgian Shay Given?

For me, the most worrying part is, Brendan continuously dismiss our defending as individual mistake...but at some point it should be coached. Defending is the most coachable aspect of football, yet Jon Flanagan is the only defender who's "IMPROVED" under Rodgers at LFC. Have we found our brilliant managers' blind spot?

Take West Ham's 3rd goal. Sakho heads the ball to the centre, NOT A SINGLE LFC MIDFIELDER IS THERE. Downing could have had a picnic, having a Heineken, smoking a Belmont there...that's how much space was there and our "Controller" was at RB position watching Afilimitano breeze past him and score.

I think we really needs to sort it out. As great the attacking football is (And I am sure our attack will get back on track with Sturridge back), a wise man once said: "Attack wins you games, defense wins you trophies". Watching City-Chelsea today, the contrast between the organization, athleticism, and power of their defensive midfielders and defenders as a whole compared to ours was staggering. I don't want Brendan to go to path of Wenger and developing a blind spot to a clearly missing piece of the puzzle.

Hope we get Valdes in, and the first priority in January should be getting a midfielder signed with Lucas shipped off. then we can see if the problem still persists or it's indeed the individuals at CB.

Attack wins you games, defense wins you trophies"

I pretty much said this last season to you and you were aggravated for me saying it.

End of the day though, Rodgers doesn't know how to set up defensively and the defence is getting the blame for it because all the staff/manager/fans have their eyes on how to attack. (Which this season has been average as hell because the "fear factor" Suarez brought is now gone.)

Our midfield should be equally to be blamed. There's no cover for the defence at all. Gerrard isn't a DM. He never has been, and he never will be. Playing as a playmaker DEEPER in midfield, does not mean he's a defensive midfielder. There's no one guarding the defence because they're too attack orientated, which leaves the defenders isolated to no end. It's so easy for teams to run straight through the middle of the park, and then there's acres for the opposition to run though.

Selling Lucas would also be the stupidest thing we could do.

Lucas should not be played next to Gerrard, it's as simple as that. Lucas should actually be starting, or at the very least, rotated with Gerrard in that controller role right now; they shouldn't be playing in the same side. I have no idea why we're playing Lucas as a box-to-box as he's not that type of player. He never has been, and it's quite late for him to do a career change to learn that role. He is still, the only midfielder in our team at the moment that can actually shield the defence properly. Emre Can can probably do this in the future, but I still see him as a box-to-box ala Henderson, rather than playing as a controller with defensive duties which Lucas does tremendously well but gets hated for doing it so because his name isn't Steven Gerrard.

We really should make Sakho the main man in the defence, instead we're making him as a "mop up" type of defender and he's not very good at playing it. Sakho has, and will always be an aggressive type of player. Instead, he's playing as a very tame one and he's looking very ordinary in defence in doing so. Lovren should be but won't be dropped. And now we really should buy a defender (agan.......) to compliment Sakho in the summer.


To the goalkeeper dilemma: Valdes isn't the answer.

He's just done his ACL. Do you know how risky that is? He's ALWAYS on his toes, so his knee is always in motion, there's a reason Monaco pulled out of the deal. One little/wrong turn can damage his ACL again which is career ending considering his age. Valdes signing will pretty much be another "paper over the crack" signing, and we've already made a lot of those in the summer.

Mignolet isn't the problem, I've said it time and time again, it's the way the defence is managed in front of him.

The biggest problem right now is Lovren, who is making all sorts of mistakes.

I like Sakho all right, the only problem I have with him is that he sometimes switches off or is slow to react.

Skrtel is a very good player and apparently is our first-choice CB, which is good. I'd partner Sakho with him.

I'd also like to see Enrique given a few games in the Prem as I think he's good defensively. Moreno has switched off a few times this season, like Man City's first goal and West Ham's second goal against us.

Gerrard isn't the problem, imo, if you look at goals we've conceded they haven't been because of Gerrard.

Mignolet needs to step up his game or we need to start looking at options in the market, probably not Valdes, though.

Anyway, it's not all doom and gloom in the defence, we've conceded more than one goal in two games, both of them away games. A little tightening up and it should be OK in defence. What worries me is that we're not scoring enough, not playing good enough overall. We need to improve in attack as well as in defence.

But Lovren is the biggest, most obvious problem in our defence right now, imho.

I'l chime in with this one...  You need to name your regular starting CB pair and let them build confidence together.  If a CB plays with the fear of getting benched if he makes a mistake = he will make mistakes.  That's why Sakho is doing so well on NT for example... he knows he has the complete confidence of the coach.  With that confidence, he's performing.  For a guy like him who relies on aggressiveness, it's critical to play without fear imo.

Lovren...  he's a harder one to read.  He was so pathetically awful at Lyon that i was shocked he played well at Southampton.  He was voted as the worse CB in ligue 1 by the media at the end of the 2012-2013 season lol.  My fear for him is that he was a one season wonder.  BUT, it's too early to tell.  Needs time to settle in.  Come February, you'll know what you have if he's playing regularly.

Skrtel...  always been like this.  Either looks WC or very shaky.

In the end though, it's hard to assess unless you give guys a run together.

I think alot of sides in todays game miss a defence leader.

I highly doubt a unit of Lovren, Sakho, Manquillo and Moreno have tremendous communication going on.

So I am with Sports in that it needs time, but we also have to believe that Rodgers is working with them on defensive back 4 shape.

I also dont think it helps the changing formations so often.

Something which may be relevant to this also.

Going from a 442 to a 352 is EXTREMELY difficult. I don't understand how you could train for both tbh.... all the reads and movements are different. In a 352, you have one CB who handles the middle and while the other 2 cover the sides since the fullbacks are pushed up. Now compare that the a 442 where the CBs split the field and have their fullbacks who play much closer to them (usually).

I don't understand it. I think it would take 2 months of training and 5-6 games to actually get a switch to 352 to function properly... and that's if you decide to go exclusively with that formation. If you're switching back and forth, you're asking the defenders to be confused.

And that's what i noticed with Liverpool... the defenders look confused. It's hard enough to defend without the manager confusing you.

In the match days and tactics thread, I had the same opinion that the defenders look bad because of bad coaching. As rightly posted by most of you, our defenders look puzzled during the counter attacks and that is because whole team in the front dont know how to react when we lose the ball. Specially our midfielders have no positional sense when we are on back foot, that leaves our defense line exposed so badly time and again. They are just asked to defend as a team but no special instrcutions, that is how it seems. So it needs to be improved from the training ground, instead of blaming any individual for it.

Right now I'll chalk it up to being a new squad that needs time to mesh. As mentioned Gerrard is not great defensively (but Lucas is past it and isn't the answer either). You can see the miscommunication time and time again -- from heading it back out into the middle, giving the ball away blatantly to misreading a cover or pushing up with no support.

Ultimately if watch the team you can see what Rodgers wants. He wants his CBs to push up and be involved in the play. With that in mind you can't have other CBs hanging back and not supporting their partners when they do push up because it leaves too many holes in behind. On top of this Mignolet absolutely is a problem because he's not a commanding, sweeping keeper that is necessary for the way Rodgers wants to set up defensively. Mignolet is a good reflexive keeper but that's about it. He can't handle the ball well, he's not commanding and he doesn't read the game well enough to help fill in for the space behind the defence when they push up.

Honestly the bodies are there (though I would sign another CB anyway) for this defence to be good they just need to be on the same wavelength. Now whether that's because of Rodgers' training, or just because they're not familiar with eachother yet is another story. Sakho, Lovren and even Skrtel sometimes are all capable of being quality. They need consistency though.

As far as the tactics go I would love for this team to move to a 3-5-2 because I think it's the best formation in football, but it would take some serious training and dedication to get the best out of.

Southampton: Skrtel-Lovern
City: Skrtel-Lovern
Tottenham: Lovern-Sakho
Villa: Lovern-Sakho
Ludogorets: Lovern-Sakho
West Ham: Skrtel-Lovern
Middlesbrough: Toure-Sakho
Everton: Skrtel-Lovern

Lovern: 7
Skrtel: 4
Sakho: 4
Toure: 1

In addition to whatever weakness the individual players have or tactical mistakes Rodgers have made, this frequent change in CB combination is a reason of our defensive frailties. Also, it's apparent that Rodgers wants to build the CB combination around Lovern. Whatever reason he may have, I think Sakho is the best of the bunch and the CB/defense should be built around him.

What has Sakho done to show he is the best of the bunch though? His NT exploits aside he's never shown that kind of level for the club, and then he storms off when he isn't selected (rightfully so) after playing a dreadful game? I don't have sympathy for that.

That said I agree with you in that frequently changing our CB combinations is not helpful. We need time for this team to gel still with so many new players and we've changed formation and who is playing more times than I can count and we're only what...8 games in? I'm worried that Rodgers just doesn't have a plan right now and it's going to hurt the team until he gets it together and the team meshes.

Controversial opinion:

Rodgers picks his CBs based on their goal-scoring ability off set pieces, and that's all.

@Cujo...DREADFUL GAME ? the same game that Kolo Toure gave away a last minute penalty? Or the game before where we were already 2-0 down inside 7 minutes thanks to Lovren/Skrtel panicking and being bullied.

I didn't watch the derby, so I can't comment on that, but heard we looked better in it....so I guess I'll reserve my judgement for after the Basel match tomorrow to see if Lovren-Skrtel partnership shows any sign of improvement.

I'm sure i'm not the only one dreading a Sergio Ramos hattrick of corners and set pieces against us

On defending. I've seen so many people saying that Jagielka goal was not a problem of defending. But I can highlight series of events that led to it:

1) Bringing on Lambert for Balotelli with 2 minutes to go.
Granted Balo hadn't scored, but I just saw the last 10 minutes, and he was pressing their defenders, and winning free kicks in middle of the park by diving and interrupting their flow. He was proposing a threat on the counter and in behind, ensure Jagielka/Stones don't get too much to our goal. Lambert coming on = No pace on counter, Everton defenders push up which leads to Jagielka being in that scoring position

2) That initial cross. Mignolet as usual doesn't take responsibility to come catch/punch it, Skrtel misses it and doesn't even challenge for it...perhaps Moreno should have been tiger to avoid the initial cross as well

3) Second cross, I actually thought Lovren's clearing header was good. got it away from the box and with a good distance too......problem was, we had NO ONE outside the box to claim it. We were so panicked and deep, everyone was in our own box. Jagielka was the last person out there, and there was like 70m of empty grass after him. WTF, why are we so deep...why we are not pressing them to deprive them of space, only Lallana was doing it.

I honestly feel like a ton of our defensive issues will go away with a simple change in net. It sounds like too much blame on Mignolet, but I honestly don't feel like he does anything back there to help them really. He's a strange player because I feel he thinks his only job is to make saves as opposed to actively keeping the ball away from the net/out of the net.

Just my 2 cents on that though. I think the defence will get better with time and familiarity also. Still early, and lots of new players.

You can't play a high line (which is what you will have if you want your CBs involved in the attack) without having a midfield that has a high work rate and immediately puts pressure on the ball. If you play a high line and the midfielders are late or lazy pressuring the ball = suicide. It can't work.

With the midfield that Liverpool starts, it's impossible to play a high defensive line without getting exposed. You need a quality hold mid or DM too... like Busquets at Barca, Lahm at Bayern or Motta at PSG.

If that's the idea, then Rogers is really making a huge tactical mistake. You use the best tactics for your squad.... you don't go in with a tactic and force the players into it, whether they fit or not.

That's why the midfield and team in general look completely different when Allen and/or Can are healthy. Lucas and Gerrard can't put that kind of pressure really and while we joke about it enough Henderson can't be everywhere. Though to be honest if you watch the Everton game it could lead you to believe Henderson can support a high defensive line by himself -- he really does cover and pressure more than any other player in the EPL.

no he really can't imo.  It's man-on-man defense with a high line where everyone needs to match up and pressure his guy...  you need everyone.  they don't need to be great defensive players, but they need to man up quickly and pressure the ball as a group and cover for each other.  If the ball carrier comes free, the defensive line is completely exposed since they're up.

In fact, the pressure needs to start with the forwards.

Defense is more about minimizing the opportunity for dangerous defensive positions... you have to minimize the stress on the defense and put them in a position of strength as much as possible. If you're stressing the defense too much, you will concede... you could have the best defenders in the world and it would happen. But if you minimize the chances, you'll do well even if you have weak defensive spots.

Rogers needs to figure out what he wants his team personality to be.

Rodgers tries to be too intelligent sometimes, I would say. Changing things so many times, I think players need time to adjust to so many tactical changes for like almost every game.

Carragher:

This is more than just a poor start, there’s something wrong. Mentally weak, no leadership on the pitch, and as a Liverpool fan, the worst thing you can ever see is them being bullied, and being weak, and that’s what we’ve seen today, and not for the first time. It’s been happening all season. Liverpool aren’t being beat by quality, they’re being bullied, they’re being beaten by enthusiasm. After the goal Liverpool offered no enthusiasm, no threat. They’re mentally and physically weak. There’s no leadership there. It was the same last year. I’m very worried as a Liverpool fan. Talk about players taking time to settle in, but you’re looking at them and thinking, they need four or five players.

If you look in the team, there’s no men in the team. There’s not enough people organising in there. Sometimes you’ve got to grind results out. There’s no confidence there so you’ve got to grind through. A game like that’s a perfect illustration. You dig in, you nick a 2-1, or take a 1-1. Liverpool rarely if ever play badly and win. Great last year, playing well, winning games. But when they play badly they just get rolled over.

It's a painful thing to say, and I know it's been mentioned before, but I think this team looked completely different with Lucas in Gerrard's spot and it's very clear at this point the whole team would function better if someone that could provide organization and cover for the back line from the DM spot was in Gerrard's place. He just doesn't fit into the way that Rodgers wants to play. We don't need someone there that can provide creativity and set pieces to be quite honest -- we need someone that can bring steel, organize, and be defensively strong. I don't think that Lucas is the answer, but I would like to try Can there instead.

Just IMO. Having a great defensive midfielder playing in that spot would make a big different for the defence (though obviously it wouldn't solve everything).

Problems are much deeper than that.  CBs are poor, keeper has been average, midfield has been disastrous... and the attack relied on Sturridge who is injured.  All the signings other than fullback have been disastrous.

Good teams are built from the keeper forward.  Rogers needs to sort out his defense first (which includes the defensive side of midfield play) and then move on to the rest.

As Carragher said, you need to grind out wins first and then worry about style. Best way to do that is to not concede goals.

I disagree in principle. A team's ability to defend can be manipulated through tactics (though Rodgers appears unwilling to play a more defensive style of football) whereas you can't make up for a lack of quality up front. Liverpool should have the money and draw power to have game breaking talents on attack...Sterling, Coutinho and Balotelli all can be like that on their day, but obviously missing Sturridge in the team's current state is a huge deal. Especially against mid to bottom table teams the quality of the players is not the issue. They just either a) aren't delivering or b) aren't being used properly.

Also, like I said, replacing Gerrard in that position will not solve all of our problems but it's the single most impactful change this team could make at the moment (IMO).

Not really...  bad defenders are bad defenders.  If you had one good CB, then yeah...  you could scheme to make up for the deficiencies of the other.  Or if the strengths and weaknesses of the CB pairing were complementary you could MAYBE put a good scheme to cover.  But when both CBs are shaky and they both have similar weaknesses, it's not fixable via scheme.  Moreno and Manquillo weren't exactly known for defense in Spain either.  Add to that, the midfield isn't helping much there.

Too many individual issues to fix while keeping the current system... the system needs to be changed.  Cannot play an attacking style with high line that leaves the defense exposed when they have so many problems.

Who's in charge of defense, anybody know?

The guy needs to get sacked.

It's Brendan

If we have 10-1 advantage in our box, chances are we will still concede .