For a team who has possession, what are the best ways to break down a good defense?

If all you need to do is play fast, accurate and direct, then how come Atleti didn't managed to do it against Chelsea when they are a direct team? And it's not like Atleti are the only direct team that has had trouble with a 10 man wall. Real Madrid tend to struggle just as much, and they are arguably the best counter-attacking team in the world..

Like I said before, it does not really matter what style you use against a team who defends deep, it will all look the same.

Art Morte wrote:[list]

[*]Buy Andy Carroll. And you can keep doing it the easy, crossing way.

Calloll to Bayern

Try to dribble past the defense and draw fouls. Practice set pieces, so you can increase your conversion ratio from set pieces and corner. Try going at defenders at the box to draw fouls and penalties.

harhar11 wrote:If all you need to do is play fast, accurate and direct, then how come Atleti didn't managed to do it against Chelsea when they are a direct team? And it's not like Atleti are the only direct team that has had trouble with a 10 man wall. Real Madrid tend to struggle just as much, and they are arguably the best counter-attacking team in the world..

Like I said before, it does not really matter what style you use against a team who defends deep, it will all look the same.

name me a game we have struggled to open up a 10 man defence??? We are not Barca with their one dimensional problems we have players who can play all different kind of tactics

Regarding this thread, Zealous made a very good point about mixing it up to confuse the other team. Tuesday's game was a perfect example of where this could've come in handy. Chelsea read them like a text book and Atleti were doing the same thing over and over and over

halamadrid2 wrote:

harhar11 wrote:If all you need to do is play fast, accurate and direct, then how come Atleti didn't managed to do it against Chelsea when they are a direct team? And it's not like Atleti are the only direct team that has had trouble with a 10 man wall. Real Madrid tend to struggle just as much, and they are arguably the best counter-attacking team in the world..

Like I said before, it does not really matter what style you use against a team who defends deep, it will all look the same.

name me a game we have struggled to open up a 10 man defence??? We are not Barca with their one dimensional problems we have players who can play all different kind of tactics

Regarding this thread, Zealous made a very good point about mixing it up to confuse the other team. Tuesday's game was a perfect example of where this could've come in handy. Chelsea read them like a text book and Atleti were doing the same thing over and over and over

Atletico in the league, both of them.

Then of course, you played quite well against them in the cup. But by that time, were they not missing some important players and considering that their squad aint the best. Not to mention that you also got quite lucky, which is what you need against a deep defence, with 2 of the 3 goals in first leg which took a huuuuge deflection..

Learn to defend would be enough.

It's not really that hard to understand. If you play against one of the very best teams in the world and the whole team defends together you won't get a lot of chances. It just won't happen. Get over it. You'll get a few chances if you're really good and that's it. There's simply no way to create a dozen top chances as long as the defending team doesn't fail to deliver. So you have to score from one of those few chances and because there's always a chance of failing in doing so you have to defend well. 0-0 is fine. Losing 1-0 isn't.

Of course Bayern didn't player great yesterday. They were lacking speed and some accuracy but still. This is Real Madrid we're talking about and the whole team defending together.

go back to your own half and start passing sideway

harhar11 wrote: Atletico in the league, both of them.

Then of course, you played quite well against them in the cup. But by that time, were they not missing some important players and considering that their squad aint the best. Not to mention that you also got quite lucky, which is what you need against a deep defence, with 2 of the 3 goals in first leg which took a huuuuge deflection..

We were pathetic in the first game against Atleti, nothing to do with not being able to not open them up. We were in a bad shape then. Second leg we scored two and if the reff had given just one or two more minutes we would've scored another. Again we were finding plenty of chances and those copa games you mentioned. Atleti is not a problem for us

We have not struggled against PTB teams this season, in fact arguable it's the posession teams we have struggled with because our off the ball pressuring has been bad against them

halamadrid2 wrote:

harhar11 wrote:    Atletico in the league, both of them.

Then of course, you played quite well against them in the cup. But by that time, were they not missing some important players and considering that their squad aint the best. Not to mention that you also got quite lucky, which is what you need against a deep defence, with 2 of the 3 goals in first leg which took a huuuuge deflection..

We were pathetic in the first game against Atleti, nothing to do with not being able to not open them up. We were in a bad shape then. Second leg we scored two and if the reff had given just one or two more minutes we would've scored another. Again we were finding plenty of chances and those copa games you mentioned. Atleti is not a problem for us

We have not struggled against PTB teams this season, in fact arguable it's the posession teams we have struggled with because our off the ball pressuring has been bad against them

I remember Atletico outplaying you for much of the game. Although, I have to agree with what you said about scoring another goal if the ref would have added some more minutes. But then again, that's probably got more to do with Atletico tire themselves out. I mean, the same happend when they played against us, apart from the 2nd leg of the quarter-final.

Barca destroying Milan time and time again is proof enough that when you are playing well, no amount of "bus parking" will stop you from winning.

Here are 5 factors against PTB teams in the CL:

1- Its a knock out match, you need to score.
2- Concede 1 goal, and you will need to abandon your "bus".
3- You are more likely to concede FK and cards.
4- Pressing the ball is more tiring than attacking (see every Milan- Barca game post 2007, and every major Atleti game).
5-By having your teams all defending, your counter attacks would be heavily limited.

Whenever a team fails to score even once against a PTB team, it is because they failed in creating or converting chances. In that regard, the onus is on them to score and they failed.

Yeah, but apart from the 4-0, we always suffered when we played you. Heck, even when you were awful, something that most of you admitted last season, you managed to defeat us by using that style..

Throw every man forward in the first ten minutes to try and get an early goal (thus forcing the opponents to attack) and hope for the best. If that fails it's back to plan A, pass until the other team dies of tiredness and exploit the openings.

That's all you can do really, and that's all that Barcelona has done in the times post 2008 when they beat park the bus teams.

harhar11 wrote:Yeah, but apart from the 4-0, we always suffered when we played you. Heck, even when you are were awful, something that most of you admitted last season, you managed to defeat us by using that style..

Yeah, I tend to agree. In the good Allegri years we often played Barca without our best players and still got decent results. Even last year, when we were awful, for that 2-0 we parked the bus with the mediocre Mexes - Zapata CB combination. Bus parking works, no doubt. In that 4-0 we got caught up with trying to get that one away goal and when it didn't come, the team capitulated.

harhar11 wrote:Yeah, but apart from the 4-0, we always suffered when we played you. Heck, even when you are were awful, something that most of you admitted last season, you managed to defeat us by using that style..

That was because you didn't manage to score early.

In every game that you forced us to unlock our defense, you won. However, when in one game we managed to stop you from having a single shot in target, you naturally were not able to score a goal.

The moment you score against a PTB team, you should win.

Barca, by courtesy of their characteristic lack of a plan B cannot react as well as othre teams. For example, Juve in the league regularly encounters defensive teams. However, they have Llorente who is good at headers, Giovinco who always wins fouls that Pirlo manages to score, and are rarely caught out on the counter and hence rarely lose against PTB teams.

Whenever Barca gets a foul or a corner, it is mostly a wasted chance, since they have no expert FK takers and are poor at headers.

Forget every other answer in this thread because we were ALL wrong. Gary Neville with the smartest and most insightful answer I've seen to this question. Probably the most likely to work too.

Start from the 8:40 mark or so.

Many people have already said, that, not tooting my own horn because I am not alone in saying it....but its already been said, create the 1 v 1, crossing and long shots is fail.

Lord Spencer wrote:

harhar11 wrote:Yeah, but apart from the 4-0, we always suffered when we played you. Heck, even when you are were awful, something that most of you admitted last season, you managed to defeat us by using that style..

That was because you didn't manage to score early.

In every game that you forced us to unlock our defense, you won. However, when in one game we managed to stop you from having a single shot in target, you naturally were not able to score a goal.

The moment you score against a PTB team, you should win.

Barca, by courtesy of their characteristic lack of a plan B cannot react as well as othre teams. For example, Juve in the league regularly encounters defensive teams. However, they have Llorente who is good at headers, Giovinco who always wins fouls that Pirlo manages to score, and are rarely caught out on the counter and hence rarely lose against PTB teams.

Whenever Barca gets a foul or a corner, it is mostly a wasted chance, since they have no expert FK takers and are poor at headers.  

Scoring an early goal, I agree with that. That will force the team to change their tactics. But its easier said than done..

The Franchise wrote:Many people have already said, that, not tooting my own horn because I am not alone in saying it....but its already been said, create the 1 v 1, crossing and long shots is fail.

True, but to create the 1 v 1 opportunity, you have to draw the defensive shape to one part of the pitch(since they all move as one, basically) and then make the quick semi-cross/pass to the other part of the pitch where there is some space and a player waiting there to capitalize on the 1 v 1 before the defense reacts. Which is what Neville said and I haven't seen anyone mention it. But yes, you did come close with your post.

Not just me, Zeal said, I think CB also. Anyway, they (we) also said move the ball quickly from the strong to the weak side which allows the player in the 1 v 1 the time.

Anyway, just saying Neville is correct but I would say its not revolutionary.

I like the video mostly because it directly contradicts those who say you need to cross the ball and shoot from distance.

Also shows how there is actually spaces to play the passes through the middle if you see them, its obviously very hard to do, but that is why the term "sustained pressure" is important.

Be patient, never lose the composure, don't cross the ball, don't take shot from unrealistic position, trying to force the 1 vs 1 by breaking the wall. I most admit that I chuckle a little bit hearing what Neville said. For all this time, Barça has been criticized for not having a tall player, someone who they can cross the ball to, and for not shooting more, basically for not having a plan B against a deep defence. But now hearing Neville's analyse, he is basically saying that Barça have been spot on with their approach against a deep defence.

Ah true, you guys did mention moving the ball quickly from strong to weak side, Dani.


I think the Liverpool players were too emotionally frustrated from the time wasting to think straight. Rodgers should take some blame for it as well.

Its really not as easy as it looks to do this but its the best way, all things considered. I was way off with my earlier opinion on this tbf. Although crossing may work if you have a really good target man like a prime Drogba. It may work. But then the number of players in the box tend to negate the advantage of having a top target man.

harhar11 wrote:Be patient, never lose the composure, don't cross the ball, don't take shot from unrealistic position, trying to force the 1 vs 1 by breaking the wall. I most admit that I chuckle a little bit hearing what Neville said. For all this time, Barça has been criticized for not having a tall player, someone who they can cross the ball to, and for not shooting more, basically for not having a plan B against a deep defence. But now hearing Neville's analyse, he is basically saying that Barça have been spot on with their approach against a deep defence.

Except that's not what Barca do. Barca are VERY slow with moving the ball. Before they move the ball from one part of the pitch to the other, the defence is already in place and waiting for their next move. No, that's not what Barca do. Most times, Barca just pass for the sake of it. Bayern are beginning to do this too these days, thanks to Guardiola. Barca are not that direct, sir.

Blue Barrett wrote:Ah true, you guys did mention moving the ball quickly from strong to weak side, Dani.


I think the Liverpool players were too emotionally frustrated from the time wasting to think straight. Rodgers should take some blame for it as well.

Its really not as easy as it looks to do this but its the best way, all things considered. I was way off with my earlier opinion on this tbf. Although crossing may work if you have a really good target man like a prime Drogba. It may work. But then the number of players in the box tend to negate the advantage of having a top target man.

Agree totally. I am starting to question Pool in terms of going against the top top teams, if they set out defensively. Suarez while having some good games isnt finding the net vs the best teams and these defensive teams will frustrate Pools style and the time wasting I think did effect them more than you expect. They beat City and someone else (Arsenal I guess), but I remember the games as very open and attacking. These closed off encounters, you wont see the end of any time soon.


Agree about a striker, which is why I dont even think Barcelona should think about signing a striker just because he is good in the the air. We do need/could use a strike, but thats because we dont get anyone offering runs in behind while still being a reliable finisher..but not to cross the ball vs parked buses. I think we would be better off simply solving our terrible positional and tactic play than buying a striker, but I think it might be too late for that. Depends on Messi.

I hope we never cross like this season again, for us, its such a terrible tactic. No matter how good the 1 person is at getting on the end of crosses, you need numerous players getting into the box to give the defence multiple markers. If its one guy who everyone knows is the only target vs a sheer mass of defenders...it will never work.

The Franchise wrote:

Blue Barrett wrote:Ah true, you guys did mention moving the ball quickly from strong to weak side, Dani.


I think the Liverpool players were too emotionally frustrated from the time wasting to think straight. Rodgers should take some blame for it as well.

Its really not as easy as it looks to do this but its the best way, all things considered. I was way off with my earlier opinion on this tbf. Although crossing may work if you have a really good target man like a prime Drogba. It may work. But then the number of players in the box tend to negate the advantage of having a top target man.

Agree totally. I am starting to question Pool in terms of going against the top top teams, if they set out defensively. Suarez while having some good games isnt finding the net vs the best teams and these defensive teams will frustrate Pools style and the time wasting I think did effect them more than you expect.

Agree, which is why I dont even think Barcelona should think about signing a striker just because he is good in the the air. We do need a striker/could, but thats because we dont get anyone offering runs in behind while still being a reliable finisher..but not to cross the ball vs parked buses.

I hope we never cross like this season again, for us, its such a terrible tactic. No matter how good the 1 person is at getting on the end of crosses, you need numerous players getting into the box to give the defence multiple markers. If its one guy who everyone knows is the only target vs a sheer mass of defenders...it will never work.

Think Rodgers needs to really look into it at the end of the season. They'll be facing teams who'll do just what we did on Sunday in the CL next season. Imagine if they get in the same group with a unit like Atletico - haven't looked at the pot placements so I'm not entirely sure if that would be possible - they'd be better served planning for situations.

On Sunday, I thought Rodgers should have started with Sturridge rather than Lucas. I know he was returning from injury but he didn't seem to struggle when he eventually came on. Think it made the Ivanovic-Kalas focus a lot on Suarez, which took him out of the game. We would have had a lot more to worry about if Sturridge had started as well. When he eventually came on, he took some time to get into the game(as little as he did) and by the time he was getting into positions, Cahill was brought in to shore up.

Also, from a neutral standpoint, Gerrard was quite disappointing. His performance dipped astonishingly after his error. His second half performance was way too selfish and was reminiscent of the one major criticism he used to get in previous years. I understand he was trying to redeem himself but he was also taking Coutinho, Sterling and Suarez(and Sturridge) out of the game while taking useless shots. That was way too selfish and its ironic because he'd been a team player all season and been very selfless.



On Barca, I haven't watched Barca much this season tbh but the games I watched I thought Tata was just being unrealistic with himself. Its one thing to want to change the way Barca play, but I don't understand punting the ball in the air to 5'8 players. Most of the Barca team are short so, I don't get why he was trying to employ that often. I do think the tiki taka was still in place for the most part though, but I can place a finger on what the exact problem was with his tactics.

Hard to say, the fact he didnt bring him on at HT makes me question how much of the game he could of actually played. Maybe he just couldnt start him. Or perhaps he thought that if he had to come off they would lose an edge and the really dont have a replacement.

Imagine they go 1-0 down and then Sturridge has to come off for Aspas...talk about disheartening.

I just don't get why he was trying to go for the kill when a draw would have perfectly put them in the driving seat for the title. That was a bit naive imo. But I guess he wanted to stick to his philosophy of trying to win every game, which is fine, but sometimes you have to adapt to situations.