Re: For a team who has possession, what are the best ways to break down a good defense?

by lszanto Thu Apr 24, 2014 5:15 am

A few years ago united had an insane amount of own goals for their team, from memory it was because teams would park against them so they'd just shoot from outside the box and eventually a shot got deflected in. Harder against teams like Chelsea though when they throw every single person in front of the ball when you shoot.

by guest_07 Thu Apr 24, 2014 5:23 am

keep passing to the most creative player you have to decide whether to shoot or pass or dribble or any unimaginable skill that can unlock the superb stubborn defense a.k.a. "nuclear bunker football"

by CBarca Thu Apr 24, 2014 5:27 am

Long shots are alright but you can't be taking tons of them. Chances are it will not work rather than eventually work in the first place, and then you're usually going to give up possession, which is terrible for a team like Barca who depends on it in order to cover up how shit our defense is. It's not quite as bad for Bayern because they don't have the defense Barca does and much better pressing (which DOES allow someone like Kroos to pop the long shot every once in a while), but it still allows the other team possession, and therefore a chance to score.

It really may just be better to pass it around and look for the opportunity to score, therefore also denying the opposition possession and more potential to score. I don't condone the odd longer shot though.

by Winter is Coming Thu Apr 24, 2014 5:37 am

Shooting is an option, but not always right. Bayern in 2012 final against Chelsea had 40 or some odd shots only scored once, they also had 30 or something around there in the UEFA super cup as well and only scored two. Atleti the other night shot 20 times and a lot from distance. Its more difficult then people make it seem out to be. We've also had our fair shares of shots and barely able to score.

When teams defend deep they force the opponent to have more balls or these guys can play without possession.

by Adit Thu Apr 24, 2014 5:38 am

Bayern couldnt create anything against a two banks of 4. That is basic defensive tactics, nothing more defending about it.

Bayern couldnt create anything against us because our fullbacks are pretty good in one on one and owned Ribbery and Robben through out the gamel. They also plays at very slow tempo which makes it easier to defend plus we are not bundesfodders...dont get deceived by Bayern finishing their league by November.

by ioilersrock448 Thu Apr 24, 2014 6:03 am

Best way to do it is quit playing possession and let the other team come back at you for a while then hit them with quick attacks.

If they still don't want to play and just keep hoofing, just hoof it right back at them.

by Forza Thu Apr 24, 2014 6:11 am

VivaStPauli wrote:Shoot.

This is correct. People don't realise that playing possession is about risk taking. There is always going to be a risk of a counter-attack, but what separates good possession teams from bad possession teams is that the good ones take their chances. Every time you lose the ball there is a risk of counter, so the solution is to lose the ball as little as possible - i.e. make the most of your chances. Every time your attack doesn't end in a FK, Penalty, corner, shot on target or goal, you have failed. This list of outcomes is how you break down a defence.

This means that on occasion you will have to be direct. Lame ass crossing again and again is predictable and teams that are set up for the counter love it because their CBs can just head clear to the wingers or the CM who will initiate the counter.

The key when in possession is to manufacture shooting chances as often as possible. Once you fall into the trap of only shooting when you are close enough to walk it in, your team is not playing to its full potential. There are definite disadvantages to sitting so deep in defence. The task of the possession team is to exploit this. Yes, you can try to get behind them from the wings, but this is difficult to do because the defence is compact. However, the defence has sacrificed the space in front of the CBs in order to achieve that compactness. This central area is where teams should be taking shots from. No need to play the through ball, just hit it ffs.

by Robespierre Thu Apr 24, 2014 7:14 am

VivaStPauli wrote:Shoot.

*

by Blue Barrett Thu Apr 24, 2014 7:41 am

Kick wrote:Counter attack them.

Seriously, if a team is parking the bus, let them win an attacking free-kick and hit them on the counter from that, you have to be clinical though.

Depends.

Mourinho on Tuesday: "I had told my players not to keep too much possession, but to move it wide. Atletico press really hard, so I told them to play wide. Torres played a game of great sacrifice."

So basically Chelsea deliberately gave up possession a lot of times because of how good Atletico are at pressing and countering.

by Art Morte Thu Apr 24, 2014 7:44 am

Play faster. It's difficult to counter-attack a defensively set up side, but end your attacks faster (sometimes). You're coming up with the ball, don't always slow down to short-passing it around the box and waiting for the perfect opportunity. You see an OK opportunity to shoot or attempt a key pass, take it.
Be optimistic. Try hopeful passes and flicks. Don't be afraid to lose possession when you have the ball nearby the opponent's box. There's no danger to you and you will regain it soon enough. It's better to go for the sensational than keep hitting aimless crosses.
Shoot more often. Don't be afraid to miss and lose possession again. A missed or saved shot is better than the 17th harmless cross in a row, because, eventually, you'll hit that screamer into the top corner.
Run! Knocking the ball around a few metres from the opponent's penalty area looks mighty nice, but don't go ball-watching. Make those runs! It can be a sideways run, you might not receive a pass, it might be all but useless, but it will put some movement to that defence. Keep making those runs, because it will always make it more difficult for the defence. Also, don't crowd the box unless you really just aim to hit them crosses. It's very difficult to successfully pass to a standing / jogging attacker who is surrounded by the CBs and CMs around the "D". Make a quick run to empty space, someone else can come and run into the space you vacated. Get some off-the-ball movement to the whole thing, ffs. Even if you don't have the ball, it's still good to leave the defenders chasing shadows.
Buy Andy Carroll. And you can keep doing it the easy, crossing way.

by Blue Barrett Thu Apr 24, 2014 7:46 am

I think the best way to play against it is to constantly feed in crosses to a target man in the box. If it gets cleared, it gives the long rang shot takers(Robben, Lampard, Gerrard, etc) a chance to take a quick shot with the defense a little out of shape.

I strongly believe that if Barca had a good target man in 2012 and they kept feeding it to him aerially, they would have beaten us. But they're too one dimensional for their own good and that's what killed them. Same with Bayern who weren't taking enough advantage of having Gomez.

Sometimes, playing fast quick passes help too. Even teams like Chelsea and Real Madrid, in another sense, who depend a lot on counter attacks struggle against deep defenses. As much as they stumble a lot, I believe Arsenal have had the most success against parked buses of any top team I've seen. They pass a lot, almost like Barca and Bayern, but they play quicker and more decisive passes in the final third and not just passing for the sake of it.

by rwo power Thu Apr 24, 2014 8:56 am

Well, I'm for the shoot option, too. Especially as Toni Kroos and Bastian Schweinsteiger are able to launch powerful shots from outside the box, too, which I guess Pep told them not to do for fear of losing his sacrosanct possession.

by Hapless_Hans Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:00 am

Play FAST and ACCURATE in the final passes. That what we DON'T do.

by AnchorMan Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:49 am

Feint Shot then Shoot . . . When U Feint Shoot, The Defenders are Quick to Jump to BLock Ur Shot; That'll Give U Enough Time to Shoot or Give a Final Ball; and Chances are That When U Shoot from Outside, The Keeper's View will be BLocked by One Of His PLayers

by Busby Babe Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:55 am

rwo power wrote:Well, I'm for the shoot option, too. Especially as Toni Kroos and Bastian Schweinsteiger are able to launch powerful shots from outside the box, too, which I guess Pep told them not to do for fear of losing his sacrosanct possession.

During the first leg, Man Utd vs Bayern Munich, the commentator said Pep encourages the players not to take long shots so they don't lose possession.

by rwo power Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:22 am

Busby Babe wrote:During the first leg, Man Utd vs Bayern Munich, the commentator said Pep encourages the players not to take long shots so they don't lose possession.

q.e.d., I guess ^^

by The Franchise Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:36 am

The ball has to move fast side to side, you need to get away from the numerical superiority the defence has caused.

To do this you must create the 1 v 1 situations as quickly as possible, and then attack the 1 v 1 before the secondary defender (midfielder actually) came again create the numerical advantage.

Bayern yesterday were talking so long with the ball in the middle, taking 3 touches to pass it laterally, then 3 touches again before it reaches Robben. By this time, the defence has long shifted and Robben isnt 1 v 1.

The ball must move to the weak side quickly, to sum it up. By weak side I mean, when the ball is on one wing, the opponants entire team shifts over to that side to defend. Different formations do this differently, but the one thing in common is that they leave the other side in space so they can compress the side of the pitch they are on. They take the smart route in their belief that by the time the ball has been switched to that wing, they can get over there.

That's why its crucial the ball has to move fast from side to side.

The answer to this question also depends on the line the back 4 are taking. Usually they dont allow space in behind, but a "good defence" is quite general...for example, you can defend well by the deepest forward/midfield pressuring when the opponent reaches the half way line, but then the defence line must be close to them and therefore leaving space in behind.

Against a team that dont have runners (Barcelona with Cesc, minus Alexis or Pedro) this is a good tactic because you can pressure them and force them to have possession in non dangerous areas (and away from Messi) and if they dont have runners they wont threaten you with a ball over the top of the defence.

But the point is, in this situation you need depth. You need someone trying to break the offside trap. So it really depends on what you mean by "good defence". My guess is you mean deep lying, right on the edge of the area.

Either way it would help if you can win the ball back high up the pitch, while the opponent is trying to launch a counter. When the opponent wins the ball, the midfielders/forwards are no longer trying to compact the lines, but spread out to take advantage of the space. If you can win the ball in this situation, you save yourself having to break down 2/3 lines of defence.

This notion of just giving the other team the ball is ludicrous Laughing

All they will do is hammer it forward and attack with their 2-3 attacking players, while the others remain behind the ball. If their attack fails, they are still set up and you have just given them a free attack...which is what they are waiting for, the rare chance to break. If a team is going to defend like this, the bare minimum is to not allow them chances too.

This notion of "just shooting" not great either. No doubt, when in space you MUST let fly..but every deep lying, compact defence want you to attack in the 2 most comfortable ways to defend.....crosses (they have more numbers in the box to win the ball) and long shots (everything is in front of them, they can see the man and the ball).

by urbaNRoots Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:27 am

Stretch the oppositions backline, create those gaps between the centre back and fullback and if someone else is taking that space, SHOOT, don't pass it back (well unless you see a better opportunity on the other side). You need to release the ball fast and make quick passes, remember the ball is quicker than a defender trying to deny space. And if the oppositions CB's are good aerially, DON'T CROSS (again unless there's clear opportunity and you trust your crossing ability), crossing against these players just means giving the ball away and risk conceding on a counter.

by Eivindo Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:40 am

score.

by Pedram Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:41 pm

harhar11 wrote:
Pedram wrote:Give up the possession idea and join others, teams like Bayern and Barca are isolating themselves with insisting to play only way of football, it makes them predictable.

Whatever they like it or not possession is just not effective anymore, they have to deal with it.

What if the defending team just keeps on hoofing the ball up field like Chelsea did last night? Should the attacking team just leave the ball on the halfway line and wait for the defending team to start attacking?

If one team don't monopolize the possession the other team will have to come out eventually which would leave gaps for you to exploit. hoofing happens because the defending team is under pressure. if you let them have the ball but pressing them at the same time i don't think they would hoof it all the times, that's just a assumption.

by 1991 Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:52 pm

Runners in behind & over lapping full backs.

by El Gunner Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:15 pm

Art Morte wrote:

Play faster. It's difficult to counter-attack a defensively set up side, but end your attacks faster (sometimes). You're coming up with the ball, don't always slow down to short-passing it around the box and waiting for the perfect opportunity. You see an OK opportunity to shoot or attempt a key pass, take it.
Be optimistic. Try hopeful passes and flicks. Don't be afraid to lose possession when you have the ball nearby the opponent's box. There's no danger to you and you will regain it soon enough. It's better to go for the sensational than keep hitting aimless crosses.
Shoot more often. Don't be afraid to miss and lose possession again. A missed or saved shot is better than the 17th harmless cross in a row, because, eventually, you'll hit that screamer into the top corner.
Run! Knocking the ball around a few metres from the opponent's penalty area looks mighty nice, but don't go ball-watching. Make those runs! It can be a sideways run, you might not receive a pass, it might be all but useless, but it will put some movement to that defence. Keep making those runs, because it will always make it more difficult for the defence. Also, don't crowd the box unless you really just aim to hit them crosses. It's very difficult to successfully pass to a standing / jogging attacker who is surrounded by the CBs and CMs around the "D". Make a quick run to empty space, someone else can come and run into the space you vacated. Get some off-the-ball movement to the whole thing, ffs. Even if you don't have the ball, it's still good to leave the defenders chasing shadows.
Buy Andy Carroll. And you can keep doing it the easy, crossing way.

I was reading the first page and half and couldn't believe I didn't find what is in red above.

That would be my most obvious answer.

Art Morte Thumbs up

by El Gunner Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:18 pm

1991 wrote:Runners in behind & over lapping full backs.

Quite impossible to do when the opposition is deep in their own half.

by Zealous Thu Apr 24, 2014 2:28 pm

Here are my thoughts on this issue, assuming that you are playing against a legit park the bus team;

1. Stretch the defence:

Like others (namely Dani) have said already, you absolutely must do your best to create 1v1 situations in dangerous areas. To do this you need to be able to move the ball to a position were one of your players has the opportunity to attack a single defender. For me the best way to do this is a long (or even short, the important thing it is going into space) diagonal ball to the other flank. If done correctly the defence is forced to shift much faster than it would like, when a defence is uncomfortable you are more likely to create something.

Example: Barcelona's first goal against Milan in the video below

Obviously it's debatable whether Milan were parking the bus that night but the idea is the same. The fullback received the ball from the other side as he was running into space.

2. Win individual battles:

It's all well and good getting into good positions but if you can't win the individual battles you're going to find it difficult to score. The best park the bus teams have players who can physically contest anything you throw at them. You have to be able to win balls in the air, reach through balls before the defender does, shake off a defender that is marking you closely. You're not going to get many clear cut chances if the defenders are consistently winning every header and blocking every shot/cross.

Example: Ronaldo's goal vs Man United

Ronaldo won his 1v1 vs Evra after the cross came in from the other flank. Had Evra won (or even contested) this duel in the air Ronaldo would not have scored.

3. Mix it up offensively:

Usually, teams that are really good at parking the bus will have a set idea on how you will attack them. They've probably done their homework on you and if you just try things you always do it'll be difficult to break them down. The trick is to mix things up and try different approaches. I don't mean playing a whole new style, just make adjustments. Make the defence worry about more than one thing when defending, that means things like having runners in behind, have your two wingers attack the same flank for certain spells, shots from distance or even your CB pushing up. In short you want the defence to be always trying to adjust, the more adjustments they make to cover for gaps the more likely they are to create gaps elsewhere.

Example: Pepe forces the own goal against Atletico

Pepe shooting from such a position is rare (that it would result in a goal even rarer than that) but he was reward for attempting something the defence were not expecting. When a defender has to make an impromptu decision when defending an attack it is likely he'll make the wrong one. In the case a above a much too late block attempt resulted in an own goal.

4. Set pieces:

Self explanatory, make use of your set pieces. Team can't "park the bus" when defending a free kick or a corner. A goal from a free kick changes can change the entire circumstances of the match. Every team needs a free kick specialist.

Example(s):

5. Cut off the defending team's outlets.

"Zealous you loveable rouge, this thread is about scoring a goal against a PTB team not defending against one." You're probably thinking as you read this, well here is my view on this.

You have to be smart in such games. You will have the majority of possession but it needs to be meaningful and to do that you want to keep the ball in the opponents half as much as possible. In order to do this you need to keep the other team from hitting you on the counter. A lot of effort must be made to make sure that the outlets for a team in transition are cut. If you end the transition quickly you'll have a chance to exploit gaps, a great counter attacking team runs in transition with 100% commitment. It's very likely that if the counter is snuffed out then there are gaps to be exploited.

Example: Couldn't find an example of good counter attack defending (mainly because no one makes videos like that lol) but here is a video with some text book counter attacks. In all of them the counter attacking team had the outlet available.

You can't afford to sleep on defending these situations, you absolutely must cover the runners and deny them the vertical passing lanes they are looking for. If you can nullify the offensive threat against you it's likely that you'll be able to frustrate the opponent and exploit the gaps that appear as a result.

by BusterLfc Thu Apr 24, 2014 2:36 pm

Shoot from outside the box if you got some long rangers in your team.

Y'all saying play fast and accurate in the final third. It's easier said than done. If it was so easy then why don't all the teams break down defensive teams? It isn't that easy when the team is playing so deep.

by harhar11 Thu Apr 24, 2014 2:42 pm

If all you need to do is play fast, accurate and direct, then how come Atleti didn't managed to do it against Chelsea when they are a direct team? And it's not like Atleti are the only direct team that has had trouble with a 10 man wall. Real Madrid tend to struggle just as much, and they are arguably the best counter-attacking team in the world..

Like I said before, it does not really matter what style you use against a team who defends deep, it will all look the same.

by Sponsored content