Knappenschmiede - Schalke's Youth Academy

In a lengthy interview, Horst Heldt explained to transfermarkt.de why the "Knappenschmiede" (youth academy of Schalke 04) is so successful that even Bayern München called to ask how they do it. As the interview is pretty long, I really don't have the time to translate all of it, just one or the other point Horst Heldt makes.

Heldt: We knew that we had quite some problems in that area, and so we had to do something. The certification by the DFL is always a good measure, and three or four years ago, it was a disaster for us. We used this as a reason to rebuild our youth academy from scratch.

First we checked what we could do on short notice, so that our status could be enhanced in the revaluation. But we knew this wasn't enough, so we put quite some money into it, exchanged the stuff and set up completely new structures. Thus we took our U23 team which bumbled about on its own as it belonged neither to the first team, nor to the youth set up, and incorporated it into the youth academy. Then there was the U16 which was dissolved for a while. Now it is back. Additionally, we gave the youth academy a new name: Knappenschmiede (literally: "miners' forge").

Then we hired more fulltime coaches and more scouts for the academy. We even have fulltime assistent coaches for our youth teams now. Such a standard isn't even available everywhere in the DFB. And it bears fruit. It is no coincidence that we were in the U19 final of the German championship last year and that we won it the year before.

Transfermarkt.de: Currently there are 8 players in the first team that came through your youth academy...

Heldt: What distinguishes us [from other YAs] is probably the fact that we pull it through to the end. Our youth players can make the step to the first team with us and become pros. We make space for our young players in the team. I think this is more difficult in other clubs. To give you an example: We didn't sign Raffael, whom we loaned, even though he is an excellent player. We didn't decide *against him*, though, but we decided *for Max Meyer*. We wanted to make it possible that he could develop here. If we had signed Raffael, then Max Meyer wouldn't be where he is now. Oh, he would have come out on top, but it would have taken much longer.

Transfermarkt.de: Oliver Ruhnert (Schalke's youth academy coordinator) says  a very important criterion when scouting is the identification [of the young players] with the club. Why do you put so much importance in this criterion?

Heldt: Because talent doesn't suffice. You have to do more than run long and fast or shoot with the left and right. The character and mindset is important, too. There are enough examples in professional football that not only the quality is crucial, but also the mentality of the player. That's what we have to take into account. Moreover, FC Schalke 04 is a special club. We have a very high amplitude to the good, but also to the bad. You need a lot of good character traits to prevail here. If you don't get involved with us to the fullest, you don't belong here.

We teach what is important for us through the atmosphere here in the club, through constant togetherness. When the first team trains, the U14 or U19 trains next to them. There is a close connection. When we play away in the Champions League, we organise friendly matches for one of our youth teams with a youth team of our opponent. This costs money, but it brings identification. I believe in such activities. [...] Everybody who plays here has to internalise what they have to do so that they do the club justice, and this starts with the youngsters.

Transfermarkt.de: Was it a strategic decision to promote Jens Keller to senior coach, to tighten the ties between the departments? After all, Keller did work with the Schalke U17 team before he got promoted.

Heldt: Of course it belongs to the strategy of our club that we not only create players from our ranks, but if possible also the senior coach. Some years ago this would not have been possible as we only had one coach with a UEFA Pro license in the youth sector (Norbert Elgert), but we changed this. So we can now use people of our own staff for the first team, if need be.

Transfermarkt.de: Do you already have the next jewel of the Schalke youth academy in sight after Manuel Neuer, Julian Draxler and Max Meyer?

Heldt: There are several, for example Donis Avdijaj, or Leroy Sane, or Marvin Friedrich, to mention only three of the many talents. They currently work on the final touches, so that they will become proper prospects for our first team.

Transfermarkt.de: Your chairman Clemens Tönnies formulated the objective that each year two players of the Schalke youth academy should make the transition to the pros. That's quite a task.

Heldt: I don't think so. It is an ambitious target, but not impossible. Currently we are better than the average.

Source: http://www.transfermarkt.de/en/heldt-wir-schaffen-platz-fuer-unsere-jungen-spieler/news/anzeigen_152804.html (Language: German)

Homepage of the Knappenschmiede: http://knappenschmiede.schalke04.de/

As an outsider (by outsider, I mean not from any European nation), always interesting to see/read how these clubs operate. Anyway, I think Dani mentioned it a while back that one of the very underrated practices clubs can do is good coaching. Even that silly game called Football Manager rewards the player for having good coaches. It is amazing how big clubs (clubs that actually have the resources as well) don't manage to do this often.

Though I must ask, how much does it cost Schalke to keep this going as I know good youth academies are not exactly cheap.

They better reduce the number of youth players who have release clauses on their contracts or they will never enjoy these players on their prime or even close to their prime years which is the whole point, right? Draxler, Meyer and Avdijaj already have confirmed release clauses on their contracts....

Well, on the other hand, if they really get their production line running (from the interview they only started in earnest about 3 years ago), then they can affort to lose a couple of them.

I'm just a bit puzzled at Max Meyer's release clause of "only" about 25.5 mio Euros. The reported 50 mio Euros for Avdijaj is a bit more fitting. ^^

About the cost of the academy I haven't found any reliable data yet, but I will try to find something.

Edit: Looks like we are 1 week too early - the new financial report of Schalke 04 for the year 2013 will be published on 25 Mar 2014: http://www.derwesten.de/staedte/gelsenkirchen/schalke-04-faehrt-zweithoechsten-umsatz-seiner-geschichte-ein-id9123402.html

I found some info that Schalke want to invest about 13 mio Euros to overhaul the training places for the Knappenschmiede (they want to rebuild the old Parkstadion for use by the youth teams.): http://www.derwesten.de/sport/fussball/s04/schalke-will-cl-millionen-ins-trainingsgelaende-stecken-id8766671.html

More info on the Knappenschmiede: http://www.derwesten.de/sport/lokalsport/gelsenkirchen-und-buer/schalker-knappenschmiede-will-beste-akademie-der-welt-werden-id8285818.html (Language: German)

And here's the homepage of the Knappenschmiede: http://knappenschmiede.schalke04.de/

It's easier for a smaller club with lesser priorities to take the risk of trying youth players in the first team.

Bayern Munich's* youth academy

El Chelsea Fuerte wrote:It's easier for a smaller club with lesser priorities to take the risk of trying youth players in the first team.

Lesser priorities like getting into the CL and maybe one day winning the league, too?

ExtremistEnigma wrote:Bayern Munich's* youth academy

Interestingly, the Bayern youth academy produced less top players recently than Schalke's youth academy. In the interview it was mentioned that the Bayern guys actually called Schalke and inquired about their youth work.

BTW, on Sunday, Schalke's U19 defeated Chelsea's U19 in the UEFA Youth League quarter final and will now meet either Barcelona's or Arsenal's U19 in the UEFA Youth League semi final.

What I meant is, most of these prospects who will turn out to be very good will eventually join Bayern.

Well, Bayern can't have an unlimited squad either, so there is a good chance at least some stay with Schalke

BTW, in Schalke's current squad, there are 8 players who came from their youth academy, and there were already 3 new kids who just got pro contracts this month.

rwo power wrote:

El Chelsea Fuerte wrote:It's easier for a smaller club with lesser priorities to take the risk of trying youth players in the first team.

Lesser priorities like getting into the CL and maybe one day winning the league, too?

ExtremistEnigma wrote:Bayern Munich's* youth academy

Interestingly, the Bayern youth academy produced less top players recently than Schalke's youth academy. In the interview it was mentioned that the Bayern guys actually called Schalke and inquired about their youth work.

BTW, on Sunday, Schalke's U19 defeated Chelsea's U19 in the UEFA Youth League quarter final and will now meet either Barcelona's or Arsenal's U19 in the UEFA Youth League semi final.

How many "top players" did Schalke produce over the last years? I know guys like Meyer and Draxler are fine talents but they have still a long way to go before I'd call them top players. Only one who I know who is a top player right now is Neuer but it could well be that there are more. If so please tell me.

Besides I think it's really a bit easier for a club like Schalke but that being said clubs like Barcelona and Bayern have the highest ambitions and still produce quite some players. It's not as if every club has to produce a top player every year but it certainly doesn't hurt to have a core of 5-6 players from the own academy.

Btw U19-tournaments are nice for the kids but they don't tell a lot about the quality of the academy.

zigra wrote:How many "top players" did Schalke produce over the last years? I know guys like Meyer and Draxler are fine talents but they have still a long way to go before I'd call them top players. Only one who I know who is a top player right now is Neuer but it could well be that there are more. If so please tell me.

Usually as "top players" one can actually name those who make it as professionals in the main league of the country where they were brought up, as for every player who makes it there, there are bazillions who are cast away.

The criterion Clemens Tönnies gave for a successful academy year is that at least two players should make it to professional level in the Bundesliga, which isn't the case for most of the academies. For example, in the last years, Bayern usually only brought through one player per year.

Currently active successful players of Schalke's academy (not yet Knappenschmiede, as that was only started from the 2011/12 season on) are:
- Mesut Özil (25) - Arsenal FC
- Sebastian Boenisch (27) - Bayer Leverkusen
- Tim Hoogland (29) - Fulham FC
- Joel Matip (23) - Schalke 04
- Benedikt Höwedes (26) - Schalke 04
- Alexander Baumjohann (27) - Hertha BSC

Goalkeepers:
- Manuel Neuer (28) - Bayern München
- Ralf Fährmann (26) - Schalke 04
- Lars Unnerstall (24) - Fortuna Düsseldorf
- Christofer Heimeroth (33) - Borussia M'gladbach
- Patrick Rakovsky (21) - 1.FC Nürnberg
- Christian Wetklo (34) - Schalke 04

I'm sure there are more, but I have yet to find a page that lists all successes in one place. BTW, two years ago, Bayern snatched up Lukas Raeder, then U19 GK of Schalke. So far he only played for Bayern II, though, as he was out with a cruciate ligament tear for quite a while).

Recent players that were promoted to Schalke's professional team:
- Julian Draxler (21)
- Max Meyer (19)
- Sead Kolasinac (21)
- Kaan Ayhan (19)

And the newest guys who were just promoted in March 2014:
- Donis Avdijaj (18)
- Marvin Friedrich (18)
- Pascal Itter (19)
- Timon Wellenreuther (18) (GK)

BTW, Kyriakos Papadopoulos (22) is a somewhat special case as he came to Schalke from Olympiakos Piräus at the tender age of 18, but immediately got into the first team. But then, he was an early starter in Greece, too, where he already played with the big boys at age 15.

zigra wrote:Besides I think it's really a bit easier for a club like Schalke but that being said clubs like Barcelona and Bayern have the highest ambitions and still produce quite some players. It's not as if every club has to produce a top player every year but it certainly doesn't hurt to have a core of 5-6 players from the own academy.

Well, la masía is a special case at it is an academy that has been top notch for years now. They are probably helped, too, as Barca B plays only one division under the Barcelona first team.

The Bayern academy very recently underwent a critical review by the board as they expect it to create more players for the team than it currently does. From what I remember they fired some coaches and stuff and try to improve it atm.

zigra wrote:Btw U19-tournaments are nice for the kids but they don't tell a lot about the quality of the academy.

Well, that was just as info. ^^

rwo power wrote:

zigra wrote:How many "top players" did Schalke produce over the last years? I know guys like Meyer and Draxler are fine talents but they have still a long way to go before I'd call them top players. Only one who I know who is a top player right now is Neuer but it could well be that there are more. If so please tell me.

Usually as "top players" one can actually name those who make it as professionals in the main league of the country where they were brought up, as for every player who makes it there, there are bazillions who are cast away.

Ah so that's the point. When I read "top players" I thought of guys like Schweinsteiger or Neuer, not Bönisch or Hoogland. In that case you're right of course. Schalke is doing a very good job producing professional football players and they have quite some bright talents.

Anyway what do you think about the Knappenschmiede. Of course it seems it's a very good academy but do you think the current output of talent is what we can expect over the next years or are they a bit lucky with great prospects at the moment?

i need assistance to read that name (scroll back up and  continue reading)

Lupi wrote:i need assistance to read that name (scroll back up and  continue reading)

Knappenschmiede?

Well, for "Knappen" you need to actually pronounce the "K" in the beginning, not omit it like in English "knight". The "a" is pronounced like the vowel in "but" or "far", just short, and the syllable is stressed. The "e" is a "schwa" sound, that is if you pronounce "uh" in English. "schmiede" is easier than it looks: shmee-duh, with the stress on the first syllable.

So try "K'nuppn-shmeeduh"

zigra wrote:Anyway what do you think about the Knappenschmiede. Of course it seems it's a very good academy but do you think the current output of talent is what we can expect over the next years or are they a bit lucky with great prospects at the moment?

I think they are doing a good job, and they have really good scouts. As they only recently started to systematically scout and put more effort in the education of the players, I think they should be able to keep up with their target of creating two professional players per year.

By the way, this year even a 4th player of the U19 got a pro contract: Leroy Sane (currently an AM who can play on both wings, too).

In yesterday's match against Braunschweig, a team with an average of 23 years of age started, the own youth products are in bold:

Ralf Fährmann (25)
Tim Hoogland (28)
Kaan Ayhan (19)
Joel Matip (22)
Sead Kolasinac (20)
K.-P. Boateng (27)
Roman Neustädter (26)
Leon Goretzka (19)
Max Meyer (18)
Julian Draxler (20)
Klaas-Jan Huntelaar (30)

Oh, by the way, on Friday, I watched the UEFA Youth League match between FC Schalke 04 and FC Barcelona, and the Schalke youngsters looked very promising.

The above mentioned Leroy Sané made a really good impression, and the GK Timon Wellenreuther was very convincing, too.

Who did you think the better side was? I know Barca scored, but did you think they were better or just they got the clinical goal when needed, while Schalke was all over them? Sorry for being off topic lol

Check here: http://www.goallegacy.net/t32892p36-official-uefa-youth-league-thread#1179916

Daily Mail discovered the Knappenschmiede:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2746350/Manuel-Neuer-Julian-Draxler-Mesut-Ozil-came-Germany-s-talent-factory.html

I thought I'll bump this as you might have noticed Leroy Sané by now - he is another kid who was educated at Schalke from 2005 to 2008 and 2011 to 2015 until he was promoted to the senior team.

With Thilo Kehrer and Felix Platte there are even two more boys who are looking very promising. Thilo Kehrer was involved in a tug of war between Schalke and Inter Milan in which Schalke kept the upper hand.

Marvin Friedrich (whom I already mentioned a year ago) and Thilo Kehrer belong to the German U20 NT at the moment, while Felix Platte plays for the German U19 NT.

The other kids I mentioned before (Donis Avdijaj, Pascal Itter, and Timon Wellenreuther) are doing okay and/or well, too:

- Donis Avdijaj is loaned to Sturm Graz in the Austrian Bundesliga where he impressed with 2 goals and 4 assists in 12 matches so far; Schalke consider recalling him early atm. He plays for the German U19 NT.
- Timon Wellenreuther is currently loaned to RCD Mallorca in the Spanish Segunda División where he is an undisputed starter. He's probably the current Nr.1 of the German U21 NT (he's fighting it out with Stuttgart's Odisseas Vlachodimos atm).
- Pascal Itter transfered to Austrian Bundesliga team SV Grödig where he does okay as a squad player.

General Question for this thread , does Schalke have any youth academy outside of Germany?
If there is can someone tell me about it?

As far as I know, Schalke only have their youth academy in Gelsenkirchen, I'm afraid.