'The Messiah' - Lionel Messi V.2

messixaviesta wrote:

alexjanosik wrote:

messixaviesta wrote:I don't doubt Messi's talent one slightest bit but being the best that can possibly be is about a little more than talent. Does Messi lack just a little bit in terms of heart and mental toughness in the tightest, hardest and most crucial of occasions? Maybe having top quality players in Barcelona alongside him, some of whom are marginally superior to him in terms of heart and mental toughness, makes us rarely see these shortcomings there but with the national team even though there are a few players like Mascherano who have as much heart and toughness as possible, not having as much talent as Barca, exposes these shortcomings of Messi all the more.

Maradona was Maradona not just for his talent but also for his determination, fighting spirit, mental toughness and leadership (ability to drive his team and bring the best out of others). Maybe in spite of being just as talented if not more Messi can never be Maradona and maybe this is the reason for it.

I never watched Maradona live but there are a few other players who I have watched for years who I think, had they been on the pitch instead of Messi last night, Argentina would have won. Maybe no one will agree with me but I think someone like Zinedine Zidane, Andres Iniesta, Xavi, Pavel Nedved, Steven Gerrard and a few others would have won the match for Argentina last night. We were superior to Chile on paper. They didn't have the big names that we had. What was most missing for us was the one player who could drive things from midfield. Argentina's play maker was Javier Pastore and while he has impressed me with his talent he has also convinced me that he has even less heart, toughness and personality than Messi. It's actually the much maligned Angel Di Maria who probably is the closest to the kind of player Argentina needed last night. Maybe he couldn't have done it but I think the ones I named would likely have done it.

Yes it's true that when Messi had the ball in the right area he was still capable of creating a magical moment and yes it's true that Higuain etc. bottled it big time but what's unforgivable is that this was only Messi's second (and maybe last) international final and he hid on the pitch for so long. Last year in the world cup final he had done something similar but this time it was even more conspicuous. Like alex, dani and a few others here have mentioned time and again laziness has become a disease that Messi just cannot be cured of any more. No one knew more than Messi just how important this was for Argentina and for Messi but he just didn't do enough to the extent that my eyes could barely believe what I was watching. Does the world's greatest player look unsure and scared just because the going has got tough and he is in a battle more than in a football match? Maybe in spite of the superstar that he has become within Messi there still lies that child that suffered from hormonal growth deficiencies and he happens to show himself in the most inopportune of occasions. I can't believe I am saying this but for the very first time I actually understand why some in Argentina don't like Messi and accept their point of view to some extent.

BTW let it be understood very clearly that Barcelona was never a one man team, at least not when we were at our best. Messi is Barca's best player but Barca is much more than Messi. When Messi in a major final sees Iniesta, Xavi, Suarez, Neymar, etc. next to him he feels that much more confidence that the team will win. Without them he loses belief really fast. Messi is essentially a comfort player who needs others to fight and work to make things rosy for him so that he can then work the kind of magic that only he is capable of. He is not a Maradona and cannot do it alone, whatever that may mean.

Maybe this is just a knee jerk reaction from me. Maybe more. I don't know and maybe will never know.

I mostly agree and it is what I have been saying all along. Until he can bring his best form for Argentina and display a transcendental performance,he wont be counted amongst the Holy trinity of Pele,Maradona and Cruyff.I dont mean that he has to win the WC but he has to have a signature tournament like they did.Until then,he will always be mentioned in a tier below them,no matter how much he wins with us.

TBh,I am a little sympathetic with his performance this Copa. He arrived in the form of his life.Unfortunately for him, this Copa happened to be the most cynical tournament in recent history.It didnt help that he was offered very little protection by refs who let cynical play go on. I thought he dribbled quite brilliantly under the tough circumstances but his passing was uncharacteristically off.And when things dont go his way, he starts walking which only compounds the problem.And ofcourse he lacks that intangible which you have alluded to in your post.When things arent going his way,he lacks that extra something which other greats have had.
Still I think he played better in this Copa than in the WC.His play in the KO stages of the WC was shocking and the lack of effort was painful to watch.

Where I disagree with your post is regarding Maradona. I think Messi is a throwback to the older day superstar, like Maradona.A magician who would not offer much movement or defense and just wait for the ball at his feet to then work his magic.Ironically, I think Messi would have fared much better playing for his NT around the same time Maradona did.Back then,a team could afford such a luxury player.
Nowadays a team cant afford such a luxury player who doesnt offer much movement.Same reason why I think Maradona wouldnt have been as successful playing for Argentina as he was back in 86. His space would have been closed down far more easily just like it does with Messi.

The reason why Messi can get away with it at Barca is that we monopolize possession and repeatedly get him the ball in areas where he can do most damage.So his lack of movement isnt as much of a problem.Mind you,it was a major problem last 3 years before this past season.This year he improved a bit and we had Neymar and Suarez.So teams couldnt focus solely on Messi.That coupled with him getting the ball repeatedly in dangerous areas is why it works for us.

Argetina dont monopolize possession and messi doesnt get the ball as much in dangerous areas.They also dont have a Suarez or Neymar who can draw some markers giving Messi some breathing space.

And because he doesnt move,he becomes easy and predictable to defend against.I know what he is going to do even before the match starts.He is going to wait in that right central position for the ball.he isnt going to offer any off the ball runs.he isnt going to make himself free for a pass.After a while of not seeing the ball,he gets frustrated,drops deep into midfield for the ball.gets the ball.If he is lucky,he will go on a nice dribbling run,lay it off to the overlapping winger on the left(Di Maria) and make the trailing run into the box.But he is marked and cant get the ball back.if he is unlucky,he gets dispossessed on the dribble or fouled.Rinse and repeat for 90 minutes.Extremely easy to defend against for a well drilled and disciplined team like Chile.

Bottom line.He needs to run and offer more movement.IMO, movement is the single biggest reason the likes of Neymar,Suarez,Xavi and Iniesta are much better NT players than Messi. They are in perpetual motion and thus are much harder to defend against than a static player like Messi. Messi may be more talented but he is very static and predictable in his movements(or lack of it), which makes him easier to defend.
Until he stops being lazy and actually puts in the effort,he is going to find international success hard to come by.

alex, once again an excellent analysis from you. Nice to see that we largely agree.

Yes I have also always said that more than winning the world cup it's very important to deliver an era defining performance in it. Pele and Maradona are remembered for the timeless world cup wins and Cruyff has universal empathy for an outstanding performance in a losing effort. In spite of his hotly debated best player trophy at WC 2014 Messi hasn't come anywhere close to this kind of stuff.

Yes the lack of intangibles and laziness are the key problems. If he gets the ball at his feet in the right areas he can work magic that only he is capable of at any moment.

You say Messi would be better off in that era with more space. It's an acceptable point but the counter point that comes to my mind is how well would Messi have handled the likes of Claudio Gentile (and he was certainly not the only one) in those days? This Copa aside, players nowadays get so much more protection.

No question Neymar and Suarez helped us get over that problem to a large extent. I have thought time and again that Suarez was the missing piece in our jigsaw. Suddenly everything fit in as if magically and we went from terrible to treble in a very short time.

Yes having others to distract defenders is very helpful. No wonder mole said that even in not so great form Di Maria's direct dribbling drew markers towards him and gave Messi more space. Argentina looked much worse once Di Maria went off.

Very well elaborated on how exactly Messi plays nowadays. Nothing that I can add there.

I have given up hope that Messi will stop being lazy and for that matter ever win a major international tournament, at least not a world cup. This season was my final hope. He was in the form of his life all season even by his peerless standards and I had also seen him working a little harder from time to time. So if he couldn't do it this season and that too in a final my feeling is that he may never do it. Of course I am not a soothsayer and wouldn't mind being proved wrong some day.

linetty wrote:Biglia on Messi: "He was destroyed and it was heart-breaking, horrible. It was an ugly moment to see someone like him like that."

"He let it all out on the coach. He was crying uncontrollably like a kid."

alexjanosik wrote:

messixaviesta wrote:

alexjanosik wrote:


I mostly agree and it is what I have been saying all along. Until he can bring his best form for Argentina and display a transcendental performance,he wont be counted amongst the Holy trinity of Pele,Maradona and Cruyff.I dont mean that he has to win the WC but he has to have a signature tournament like they did.Until then,he will always be mentioned in a tier below them,no matter how much he wins with us.

TBh,I am a little sympathetic with his performance this Copa. He arrived in the form of his life.Unfortunately for him, this Copa happened to be the most cynical tournament in recent history.It didnt help that he was offered very little protection by refs who let cynical play go on. I thought he dribbled quite brilliantly under the tough circumstances but his passing was uncharacteristically off.And when things dont go his way, he starts walking which only compounds the problem.And ofcourse he lacks that intangible which you have alluded to in your post.When things arent going his way,he lacks that extra something which other greats have had.
Still I think he played better in this Copa than in the WC.His play in the KO stages of the WC was shocking and the lack of effort was painful to watch.

Where I disagree with your post is regarding Maradona. I think Messi is a throwback to the older day superstar, like Maradona.A magician who would not offer much movement or defense and just wait for the ball at his feet to then work his magic.Ironically, I think Messi would have fared much better playing for his NT around the same time Maradona did.Back then,a team could afford such a luxury player.
Nowadays a team cant afford such a luxury player who doesnt offer much movement.Same reason why I think Maradona wouldnt have been as successful playing for Argentina as he was back in 86. His space would have been closed down far more easily just like it does with Messi.

The reason why Messi can get away with it at Barca is that we monopolize possession and repeatedly get him the ball in areas where he can do most damage.So his lack of movement isnt as much of a problem.Mind you,it was a major problem last 3 years before this past season.This year he improved a bit and we had Neymar and Suarez.So teams couldnt focus solely on Messi.That coupled with him getting the ball repeatedly in dangerous areas is why it works for us.

Argetina dont monopolize possession and messi doesnt get the ball as much in dangerous areas.They also dont have a Suarez or Neymar who can draw some markers giving Messi some breathing space.

And because he doesnt move,he becomes easy and predictable to defend against.I know what he is going to do even before the match starts.He is going to wait in that right central position for the ball.he isnt going to offer any off the ball runs.he isnt going to make himself free for a pass.After a while of not seeing the ball,he gets frustrated,drops deep into midfield for the ball.gets the ball.If he is lucky,he will go on a nice dribbling run,lay it off to the overlapping winger on the left(Di Maria) and make the trailing run into the box.But he is marked and cant get the ball back.if he is unlucky,he gets dispossessed on the dribble or fouled.Rinse and repeat for 90 minutes.Extremely easy to defend against for a well drilled and disciplined team like Chile.

Bottom line.He needs to run and offer more movement.IMO, movement is the single biggest reason the likes of Neymar,Suarez,Xavi and Iniesta are much better NT players than Messi. They are in perpetual motion and thus are much harder to defend against than a static player like Messi. Messi may be more talented but he is very static and predictable in his movements(or lack of it), which makes him easier to defend.
Until he stops being lazy and actually puts in the effort,he is going to find international success hard to come by.

alex, once again an excellent analysis from you. Nice to see that we largely agree.

Yes I have also always said that more than winning the world cup it's very important to deliver an era defining performance in it. Pele and Maradona are remembered for the timeless world cup wins and Cruyff has universal empathy for an outstanding performance in a losing effort. In spite of his hotly debated best player trophy at WC 2014 Messi hasn't come anywhere close to this kind of stuff.

Yes the lack of intangibles and laziness are the key problems. If he gets the ball at his feet in the right areas he can work magic that only he is capable of at any moment.

You say Messi would be better off in that era with more space. It's an acceptable point but the counter point that comes to my mind is how well would Messi have handled the likes of Claudio Gentile (and he was certainly not the only one) in those days? This Copa aside, players nowadays get so much more protection.

No question Neymar and Suarez helped us get over that problem to a large extent. I have thought time and again that Suarez was the missing piece in our jigsaw. Suddenly everything fit in as if magically and we went from terrible to treble in a very short time.

Yes having others to distract defenders is very helpful. No wonder mole said that even in not so great form Di Maria's direct dribbling drew markers towards him and gave Messi more space. Argentina looked much worse once Di Maria went off.

Very well elaborated on how exactly Messi plays nowadays. Nothing that I can add there.

I have given up hope that Messi will stop being lazy and for that matter ever win a major international tournament, at least not a world cup. This season was my final hope. He was in the form of his life all season even by his peerless standards and I had also seen him working a little harder from time to time. So if he couldn't do it this season and that too in a final my feeling is that he may never do it. Of course I am not a soothsayer and wouldn't mind being proved wrong some day.

The physical play from that time is vastly overrated. Reading people comment(not you),one would be forgiven for thinking there were broken bones every game.Except,there quite clearly wasnt. Gentile at WC 82 is a classic example.Reading accounts,it would appear he ruthlessly scythed down players. Actually seeing the games,it was nothing of the sort. Take the Italy games against Brazil and Argentina in which Zico and Maradona were shut down respectively. There was cynical fouling but I really dont think the fouling was any worse than that in this year's Copa. It is just vastly blwon out of proportion. I would say the treatment Messi suffered was just as bad if not worse than what Zico and Maradona suffered at WC 82.
And he seemed to put up with it quite well.Dribbled very well inspite of the cynical fouling and won a lot of fouls.I have no doubt that he could have handled Gentile and co.I think it is reasonable to say he would have flourished more for the NT in that time.Just like Maradona,his static play wouldnt be as big a liability back then.

linetty wrote:Biglia on Messi: "He was destroyed and it was heart-breaking, horrible. It was an ugly moment to see someone like him like that."

"He let it all out on the coach. He was crying uncontrollably like a kid."

ahmad25 wrote: