If Spain persist with the 4-3-3 their Era will end very soon

+22
Le Samourai
Körbl
Sina
Lupi
halamadrid2
guest7
Art Morte
iftikhar
BarrileteCosmico
Mamad
VanDeezNuts
Arquitecto
barca 2011
McAgger
futbol
Collblanc
sbaggio
Valkyrja
free_cat
Onyx
Milantildeath
Great Leader Sprucenuce
26 posters

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

Go down

If Spain persist with the 4-3-3 their Era will end very soon Empty If Spain persist with the 4-3-3 their Era will end very soon

Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:10 pm

Throughout this tournament i have noticed a Spain which is a lot weaker defensively and easier to get at.

I know it sounds stupid considering they didn't concede to Nigeria or Italy and Uruguay scored a fantastic free kick.

But all 3 teams caused them issues and had many chances but they were not taken, if they were then Spain could easily be out of this tournament and today Italy dominated large portions of the 90 mins of normal time.

This was not happening before when Spain with Alonso-Busquets-Xavi-Iniesta-Pedro-Cesc/Torres.

They were straight dominating games and controlling oppositions attacks at arms length, teams are now creating chances against them.

This is much more entertaining for the neutral of course but i don't believe it will be as successful for Spain come next year at the World Cup.

My prediction: If Spain go back to the tried and tested they will win the WC with ease, but if they don't and persist on this more open style which is offering teams more chances on goal than it ever did during their dominant era i can see them coming unstuck.

Your move Del Bosque.

Great Leader Sprucenuce
Great Leader Sprucenuce
Forum Legend
Forum Legend

Club Supported : PSG
Posts : 68989
Join date : 2011-06-05
Age : 34

Back to top Go down

If Spain persist with the 4-3-3 their Era will end very soon Empty Re: If Spain persist with the 4-3-3 their Era will end very soon

Post by Milantildeath Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:14 pm

Spain wins by "parking the bus" against Italy, let that one sink in for a second
Milantildeath
Milantildeath
First Team
First Team

Club Supported : AC Milan
Posts : 2275
Join date : 2011-06-05

Back to top Go down

If Spain persist with the 4-3-3 their Era will end very soon Empty Re: If Spain persist with the 4-3-3 their Era will end very soon

Post by Onyx Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:16 pm

They aren't pressing properly. They're sitting back and allowing the opposition time on the ball.

Onyx
Forum Legend
Forum Legend

Club Supported : Real Madrid
Posts : 40128
Join date : 2011-06-05

Back to top Go down

If Spain persist with the 4-3-3 their Era will end very soon Empty Re: If Spain persist with the 4-3-3 their Era will end very soon

Post by free_cat Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:16 pm

They are not weaker defensive really. Very few goals conceded. They could have been beaten and conceded more goals in all the tournaments they've won.

Spain era will end regardless soon, but not because of a tactic.
free_cat
free_cat
Fan Favorite
Fan Favorite

Club Supported : Barcelona
Posts : 8546
Join date : 2011-06-05

Back to top Go down

If Spain persist with the 4-3-3 their Era will end very soon Empty Re: If Spain persist with the 4-3-3 their Era will end very soon

Post by free_cat Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:16 pm

They are not weaker defensive really. Very few goals conceded. They could have been beaten and conceded more goals in all the tournaments they've won.

Spain era will end regardless soon, but not because of a tactic.
free_cat
free_cat
Fan Favorite
Fan Favorite

Club Supported : Barcelona
Posts : 8546
Join date : 2011-06-05

Back to top Go down

If Spain persist with the 4-3-3 their Era will end very soon Empty Re: If Spain persist with the 4-3-3 their Era will end very soon

Post by Valkyrja Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:18 pm

It's because of Xavi being past it. He can't cover much ground anymore, so he is less time on the ball. IMO that's why their possession suffers.
Valkyrja
Valkyrja
World Class Contributor
World Class Contributor

Club Supported : Real Madrid
Posts : 11355
Join date : 2011-11-10

Back to top Go down

If Spain persist with the 4-3-3 their Era will end very soon Empty Re: If Spain persist with the 4-3-3 their Era will end very soon

Post by sbaggio Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:18 pm

Hopefully it ends soon. This is a sign. If a depleted and average Azzurri team can push them, they're in trouble next year.
sbaggio
sbaggio
Hot Prospect
Hot Prospect

Club Supported : AC Milan
Posts : 208
Join date : 2011-06-09

Back to top Go down

If Spain persist with the 4-3-3 their Era will end very soon Empty Re: If Spain persist with the 4-3-3 their Era will end very soon

Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:28 pm

free_cat wrote:They are not weaker defensive really. Very few goals conceded. They could have been beaten and conceded more goals in all the tournaments they've won.

Spain era will end regardless soon, but not because of a tactic.

They are much easier to get at..... both Nigeria and Italy should have scored at least 3, because their finishing was poor doesn't mean Spains defence was very good it was far from it.

They are alot weaker defensively as a team with Busquets-Xavi-Iniesta-Silva-Pedro-Cesc/Torres than they were with Busquets-Alonso-Xavi-Iniesta-Pedro-Cesc/Torres where they didn't even allow teams to have chances and they would just dominate.

They don't dominate or control any more or at least they haven't done this tournament by comparison they are nowhere near as defensively solid as the team that won the Euros.

Great Leader Sprucenuce
Great Leader Sprucenuce
Forum Legend
Forum Legend

Club Supported : PSG
Posts : 68989
Join date : 2011-06-05
Age : 34

Back to top Go down

If Spain persist with the 4-3-3 their Era will end very soon Empty Re: If Spain persist with the 4-3-3 their Era will end very soon

Post by Collblanc Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:31 pm

Players have grow older, lost the pace and lost the urge to press as they did in the past. Also the RB and LB pushing up and fail to track back makes Spain defense weak at times - Italy and Nigeria exploited this point and gave them several chances. Another problem is that possesion futbol/tiki taka is easily countered, Spain (just as Barcelona) has no plan B.
Collblanc
Collblanc
First Team
First Team

Club Supported : Barcelona
Posts : 2369
Join date : 2012-02-06

Back to top Go down

If Spain persist with the 4-3-3 their Era will end very soon Empty Re: If Spain persist with the 4-3-3 their Era will end very soon

Post by futbol Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:36 pm

Yohan Modric wrote:They aren't pressing properly. They're sitting back and allowing the opposition time on the ball.

You try to press at 1 pm under the sun, 30°C and 90 % humidity in Brazil. lol

Also Spain won't persist with the 4-3-3. It's just because Alonso is injured.

futbol
World Class Contributor
World Class Contributor

Club Supported : Effzeh Kölle
Posts : 11254
Join date : 2012-11-23

Back to top Go down

If Spain persist with the 4-3-3 their Era will end very soon Empty Re: If Spain persist with the 4-3-3 their Era will end very soon

Post by McAgger Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:53 pm

Mole you beauty :bow: Completely agree with this.
McAgger
McAgger
Ballon d'Or Contender
Ballon d'Or Contender

Club Supported : Reggina
Posts : 28318
Join date : 2011-06-05
Age : 107

Back to top Go down

If Spain persist with the 4-3-3 their Era will end very soon Empty Re: If Spain persist with the 4-3-3 their Era will end very soon

Post by barca 2011 Fri Jun 28, 2013 12:14 am

futbol wrote:
Yohan Modric wrote:They aren't pressing properly. They're sitting back and allowing the opposition time on the ball.

You try to press at 1 pm under the sun, 30°C and 90 % humidity in Brazil. lol

Also Spain won't persist with the 4-3-3. It's just because Alonso is injured.
I'm sorry but ATM, Javi > Alonso. He could easily play alongside busquets in the pivote if they really wanted to. At this point though I don't know what would be best. They played 4-3-3 against Uruguay and absolutely dominated so there have been moments of brilliance with it. I think the key is knowing when to choose which formation to play based on the opposition. Easier said than done though.
barca 2011
barca 2011
First Team
First Team

Club Supported : Barcelona
Posts : 1755
Join date : 2011-06-07

Back to top Go down

If Spain persist with the 4-3-3 their Era will end very soon Empty Re: If Spain persist with the 4-3-3 their Era will end very soon

Post by Valkyrja Fri Jun 28, 2013 12:55 am

barca 2011 wrote:
futbol wrote:
Yohan Modric wrote:They aren't pressing properly. They're sitting back and allowing the opposition time on the ball.

You try to press at 1 pm under the sun, 30°C and 90 % humidity in Brazil. lol

Also Spain won't persist with the 4-3-3. It's just because Alonso is injured.
I'm sorry but ATM, Javi > Alonso. He could easily play alongside busquets in the pivote if they really wanted to. At this point though I don't know what would be best. They played 4-3-3 against Uruguay and absolutely dominated so there have been moments of brilliance with it. I think the key is knowing when to choose which formation to play based on the opposition. Easier said than done though.

Javi and Alonso are different players.
Valkyrja
Valkyrja
World Class Contributor
World Class Contributor

Club Supported : Real Madrid
Posts : 11355
Join date : 2011-11-10

Back to top Go down

If Spain persist with the 4-3-3 their Era will end very soon Empty Re: If Spain persist with the 4-3-3 their Era will end very soon

Post by Arquitecto Fri Jun 28, 2013 12:58 am

Mole is literally spot on in every single aspect here. He just was lecturing me as usual on twitter while I was consequently lecturing a bunch of Nigerians.

Moving on...No surprise all the Spanish think tanks for our football are unsurprisingly BASQUE and moving on towards the 4-2-3-1 hence Bielsa's Basque inspired 4-2-3-1, same for Valverde etc.

4-3-3 is not only outdated for Espana but a formation outdated as a whole in an era resorting back to retro-positionals.

Dual-pivot isn't aesthetically pleasing yet it is functional.

We need Javi or Arteta/Xabi or Illaramendi within that role as a defensively astute Thiago would also suit it.
Arquitecto
Arquitecto
World Class Contributor
World Class Contributor

Club Supported : Liverpool
Posts : 12402
Join date : 2011-06-05

Back to top Go down

If Spain persist with the 4-3-3 their Era will end very soon Empty Re: If Spain persist with the 4-3-3 their Era will end very soon

Post by Onyx Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:09 am

For some reason Spain allow Xavi and Iniesta to stay higher up the pitch and the wingers drop deeper than them. It's not like Xavi/Iniesta were properly pressing, so they might as well drop deeper so the team is defending better/harder to break down.

Onyx
Forum Legend
Forum Legend

Club Supported : Real Madrid
Posts : 40128
Join date : 2011-06-05

Back to top Go down

If Spain persist with the 4-3-3 their Era will end very soon Empty Re: If Spain persist with the 4-3-3 their Era will end very soon

Post by barca 2011 Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:18 am

Valkyrja wrote:
barca 2011 wrote:
futbol wrote:

You try to press at 1 pm under the sun, 30°C and 90 % humidity in Brazil. lol

Also Spain won't persist with the 4-3-3. It's just because Alonso is injured.
I'm sorry but ATM, Javi > Alonso. He could easily play alongside busquets in the pivote if they really wanted to. At this point though I don't know what would be best. They played 4-3-3 against Uruguay and absolutely dominated so there have been moments of brilliance with it. I think the key is knowing when to choose which formation to play based on the opposition. Easier said than done though.

Javi and Alonso are different players.
So you don't think Javi could hack it alongside busquets? Why? And elaborate further than just simply saying "they are different players".
barca 2011
barca 2011
First Team
First Team

Club Supported : Barcelona
Posts : 1755
Join date : 2011-06-07

Back to top Go down

If Spain persist with the 4-3-3 their Era will end very soon Empty Re: If Spain persist with the 4-3-3 their Era will end very soon

Post by futbol Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:23 am

Martinez doesn't have the playmaking ability of Alonso. A central midfield consisting of Busquets and Martinez would be too limited.

futbol
World Class Contributor
World Class Contributor

Club Supported : Effzeh Kölle
Posts : 11254
Join date : 2012-11-23

Back to top Go down

If Spain persist with the 4-3-3 their Era will end very soon Empty Re: If Spain persist with the 4-3-3 their Era will end very soon

Post by VanDeezNuts Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:44 am

its not so much about the formation as it is the players and the chemistry on the field.

VanDeezNuts
Fan Favorite
Fan Favorite

Club Supported : FC Basel
Posts : 5869
Join date : 2011-06-05

Back to top Go down

If Spain persist with the 4-3-3 their Era will end very soon Empty Re: If Spain persist with the 4-3-3 their Era will end very soon

Post by Milantildeath Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:45 am

If I were spain I'd take a note out of Italy's tactics and play the 3-4-2-1, they basically play it anyway.

-------------------------Casillas
--------------Ramos-----Busquets------Pique

------------------Xabi Alonso/Javi Martinez
Navas--------------------Xavi--------------------------Alba

--------------Mata--------------------Iniesta
------------------------Torres/Villa
Milantildeath
Milantildeath
First Team
First Team

Club Supported : AC Milan
Posts : 2275
Join date : 2011-06-05

Back to top Go down

If Spain persist with the 4-3-3 their Era will end very soon Empty Re: If Spain persist with the 4-3-3 their Era will end very soon

Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:52 am

Arquitescu wrote:Mole is literally spot on in every single aspect here. He just was lecturing me as usual on twitter while I was consequently lecturing a bunch of Nigerians.

Moving on...No surprise all the Spanish think tanks for our football are unsurprisingly BASQUE and moving on towards the 4-2-3-1 hence Bielsa's Basque inspired 4-2-3-1, same for Valverde etc.

4-3-3 is not only outdated for Espana but a formation outdated as a whole in an era resorting back to retro-positionals.

Dual-pivot isn't aesthetically pleasing yet it is functional.

We need Javi or Arteta/Xabi or Illaramendi within that role as a defensively astute Thiago would also suit it.

Laughing

But seriously if Spain go to 4-3-3 long term they risk wasting a generation of talent as the U21 showed 4-2-3-1 is not only best for the first team but the generations that will replace them.

Its important that the same system is used through out to get the best from these players.

Sure it may not as aesthetically pleasing but at the end of the day its just leagues above in balance.

I never saw Spain look this fragile when they used it, you can say hey they won and ignore it but the best teams react to issues before they take place.

This is an issue IMO, of course it could be the case that they are experimenting without Alonso but i don't find that to be very wise long term.

What should have happened is the system was kept in place and Alonso's considered long term replacement come in and thus the cycle continues, not experimenting with something that could fail.

Of course it hasn't mattered this tournament because they have only faced one team in Italy who will challenge for the WC but quite frankly it could have easily gone the other way and i believe the change in system and playing more openly is a big reason why.

Plus its not just about the WC and their domination its about continued success for generations to come and i do believe you risk the development of the future generations and success of a nation.

Of course this could all mean nothing if VDB goes back to the tried and tested which works for Spain at all levels but if not then i do fear for the possibility of retaining the WC.
Great Leader Sprucenuce
Great Leader Sprucenuce
Forum Legend
Forum Legend

Club Supported : PSG
Posts : 68989
Join date : 2011-06-05
Age : 34

Back to top Go down

If Spain persist with the 4-3-3 their Era will end very soon Empty Re: If Spain persist with the 4-3-3 their Era will end very soon

Post by Arquitecto Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:01 am

Excellently said as I couldn't agree more.
Recent generations of Spaniards simply have been leaning towards more central positions through inspirations of developmental changes and inheritance of provincial tactics since the victories of Espana, have caused... a unison within all the provinces not only to compete but form hybrids of their own positional references.

And it just so happens that 4-2-3-1 is the marquee formation to suit it.

Hope Del Bosque looks beyond his Pornstach and understands the need to continually adapt. This isn't 2010 anymore.

Arquitecto
Arquitecto
World Class Contributor
World Class Contributor

Club Supported : Liverpool
Posts : 12402
Join date : 2011-06-05

Back to top Go down

If Spain persist with the 4-3-3 their Era will end very soon Empty Re: If Spain persist with the 4-3-3 their Era will end very soon

Post by futbol Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:05 am

You're preaching for nothing. Del Bosque is a 4-2-3-1 man through and through. Him and Xavi even had a discussion about the formation of La Roja as del Bosque's assistant revealed recently. Xavi was advocating for 4-3-3 but del Bosque disagreed. The only reason they are playing like this now is because Alonso is injured and because this isn't an important Cup.

I'm actually hoping that Barca also adapt to 4-2-3-1 soon because frankly 1 defensive midfielder against proper teams leaves Barca totally unbalanced. Even in Barca's peak days they conceded comedy goals against far inferior teams. That 2-2 in the Emirates in 2010. :facepalm: It's just not as evident when you have Messi upfront scoring gazillion goals to make up for it. Unfortunately too many Cruyffists at Barca. Sad

futbol
World Class Contributor
World Class Contributor

Club Supported : Effzeh Kölle
Posts : 11254
Join date : 2012-11-23

Back to top Go down

If Spain persist with the 4-3-3 their Era will end very soon Empty Re: If Spain persist with the 4-3-3 their Era will end very soon

Post by Onyx Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:10 am

Spain u21 didn't just play a 4-2-3-1, they played a 4-3-3 too. Also players like Isco can play outwide in a 4-3-3 too.

4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3 are similar formations.

The 4-2-3-1 suggested would have Alonso and Busquets as the '2', however if the '2' were Xavi and Busquets and Iniesta was the AM, then it wouldn't be much different to a 4-3-3.

Koke's a similar size to Xavi and he played alongside Illarramendi.

Onyx
Forum Legend
Forum Legend

Club Supported : Real Madrid
Posts : 40128
Join date : 2011-06-05

Back to top Go down

If Spain persist with the 4-3-3 their Era will end very soon Empty Re: If Spain persist with the 4-3-3 their Era will end very soon

Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:19 am

futbol wrote:You're preaching for nothing. Del Bosque is a 4-2-3-1 man through and through. Him and Xavi even had a discussion about the formation of La Roja as del Bosque's assistant revealed recently. Xavi was advocating for 4-3-3 but del Bosque disagreed. The only reason they are playing like this now is because Alonso is injured and because this isn't an important Cup.

I'm actually hoping that Barca also adapt to 4-2-3-1 soon because frankly 1 defensive midfielder against proper teams leaves Barca totally unbalanced. Even in Barca's peak days they conceded comedy goals against far inferior teams. That 2-2 in the Emirates in 2010. 🤦It's just not as evident when you have Messi upfront scoring gazillion goals to make up for it. Unfortunately too many Cruyffists at Barca. Sad

I hope this is the case tbh and if it happens i'll look rather stupid Laughing

But oh well it was something i had noticed and thought i'd mention it, personally though i would have kept the system and brought Martinez in for Alonso.


Last edited by Great Leader Sprucenuce on Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:19 am; edited 1 time in total
Great Leader Sprucenuce
Great Leader Sprucenuce
Forum Legend
Forum Legend

Club Supported : PSG
Posts : 68989
Join date : 2011-06-05
Age : 34

Back to top Go down

If Spain persist with the 4-3-3 their Era will end very soon Empty Re: If Spain persist with the 4-3-3 their Era will end very soon

Post by Mamad Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:19 am

Spain is full of talent. they may not win world cups and Euros one after one but they will be the best or one of the best for years.
Mamad
Mamad
First Team
First Team

Club Supported : Real Madrid
Posts : 4064
Join date : 2011-06-05

Back to top Go down

If Spain persist with the 4-3-3 their Era will end very soon Empty Re: If Spain persist with the 4-3-3 their Era will end very soon

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum