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Post by Juveman17 Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:24 pm

Obama went to Congress because if he didn't his public polls would once again plummet further as all the polls are showing the majority of Americans are against the war. He brought up the whole world police thing and how he wants Congressional approval moving forward which, for your information, means following the Constitution.


And the international community is tired of using being this police force with hundreds of bases in countries around the globe. As history shows us, we should stop getting involved in foreign problems as we cannot adequately solve them ourselves.

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Post by Yuri Yukuv Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:37 pm

@che wrote:
@Yuri Yukuv wrote:
Obozo just hurt both US credibility and leadership in a way we have not seen in decades, he got outplayed diplomatically in a way that we have not seen before. Our allies in the face of danger feel their position is threatned and are doubting the strengths of our relationship, all the way from Japan & South Korea to Turkey & Israel.
any source on this or just the fox reruns in your bomb shelter? because the three countries' news i monitor - england, holland and slovakia - all talk about how happy political analysts are with usa not playing world police once again... look up polls of americans themselves ffs, even your own countrymen don't want to go to war, nevermind the allies

Maybe I am the one that should ask what is wrong with you? why do you like seeing a weak and defeated america?
i know americans have been doing it for the better part of 70 years, but there are other ways to show strength apart from bombing the shit out of some coloured people... NOT bombing the shit out of coloured people when you have the opportunity to do so, for instance

but don't let that get in the way of your jingoistic bullshit about how accepting an entirely reasonable proposition by the dirty commies makes you weak and defeated... murica indeed
You do not understand this is not about going to war from not going to war, this is the middle east and europe's problem not ours. The refugees are flooding Turkey/Arab world and heading to Europe. The middle east is becoming radicalized and europeans are even sending jihadists to Syria.

My problem is with Obozo drawing redlines and then not abiding by them as well as getting played by Potin and his united russia cronies.

Who says that any american should give to damns about what europeans think? The american public elected Obama to serve their interests and not so some euros can write nice things about him.
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Post by Juveman17 Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:38 pm

Yuri you're spitting out pure propaganda atm. This isnt the 1960's anymore. We dont need to patrol the world for no damn reason, waste our money, resources, and young men for pointless wars. Time to cut down on our foreign aid and military budget as that money needs to be invested into health care and infrastructure.
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Post by Yuri Yukuv Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:43 pm

Davide Moscardelli wrote:Obama went to Congress because if he didn't his public polls would once again plummet further as all the polls are showing the majority of Americans are against the war. He brought up the whole world police thing and how he wants Congressional approval moving forward which, for your information, means following the Constitution.


And the international community is tired of using being this police force with hundreds of bases in countries around the globe. As history shows us, we should stop getting involved in foreign problems as we cannot adequately solve them ourselves.
Stop making up excuses about the constitution, Obama himself said that he still maintains that he has authorization and might act even without congressional approval. How do you expect a man that thinks its ok to have kill lists with american citizens, loves gun control and supports NSA spying to be pro constitution?

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Post by Yuri Yukuv Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:46 pm

Davide Moscardelli wrote:Yuri you're spitting out pure propaganda atm. This isnt the 1960's anymore. We dont need to patrol the world for no damn reason, waste our money, resources, and young men for pointless wars. Time to cut down on our foreign aid and military budget as that money needs to be invested into health care and infrastructure.
Again you are being ignorant and short sighted

I dont want a war with a random middle eastern dictator

I want Obama to either shut his mouth or to act on what he says, him blabbering while at the same time not acting is a grave threat to our credibility and our future national security.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:46 pm

Thing is Yuri, it's quite likely that Obama does not want to act. If he did not make the red line comment there is no doubt in my head that there wouldn't be any action being considered at all.
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Post by Yuri Yukuv Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:48 pm

@BarrileteCosmico wrote:Thing is Yuri, it's quite likely that Obama does not want to act. If he did not make the red line comment there is no doubt in my head that there wouldn't be any action being considered at all.
I would rather that there was no such statement

However there was, there also was escalation, Assad even did it infront of UN inspectors and now the administration ducks under their desks and says they didnt really mean it!!

There has to be responsibility, there needs to be accountability, Obozo and his crew are acting like a group teenagers on the sidewalk that can talk but cant act.
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Post by Juveman17 Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:08 pm

If he gets Congressional approval and we do attack Syria would you still call him weak?
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Post by la bestia negra Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:18 pm

my tin foil hat wont allow me not posting here so
all i have to say is the warmongers are just delayed a tiny bit
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Post by Yuri Yukuv Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:01 am

Davide Moscardelli wrote:If he gets Congressional approval and we do attack Syria would you still call him weak?
Yes, he projected amazing weakness and diplomatic naivete. Getting congressional approvale then striking Syria or getting an UNSC resolution which authorizes the use of force if chemical weapon overturn is not completed are best ways forward now, I would much rather get the latter.
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Post by RedOranje Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:20 pm

Why anyone is attempting to have a serious discussion with someone actively, repeatedly, and seriously using "Obozo" I cannot fathom. There's naught to be gained from such conversation, unless you just enjoy hearing the talking points and propaganda of the US right wing.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Thu Sep 12, 2013 3:20 pm

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/12/opinion/putin-plea-for-caution-from-russia-on-syria.html?ref=opinion&_r=1&

http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/139905/fiona-hill/putin-scores-on-syria
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Post by che Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:25 pm

@Yuri Yukuv wrote:
europeans are even sending jihadists to Syria.
what the absolute *bleep* are you talking about Laughing

Who says that any american should give to damns about what europeans think? The american public elected Obama to serve their interests and not so some euros can write nice things about him.
you do

Our allies in the face of danger feel their position is threatned and are doubting the strengths of our relationship, all the way from Japan & South Korea to Turkey & Israel.
on a side note, i find it absolutely hilarious that a libertarian hero such as yourself is arguing for the president of the us to do something without the approval of either the public or the congress but you're probably too busy reading alex jones to see the irony
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Post by Juveman17 Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:01 pm

I consider myself a libertarian I'm many ways but Yuri come on man at taking without Congressional approval is a far from Libertarian one can go Laughing
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Post by Yuri Yukuv Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:10 pm

FT explains Vladimir's NYT victory speech

Russia, Syria and the US – parsing Uncle Vlad

Vladimir Putin has an op-ed in The New York Times reassuring Americans that he is on their side. Its attempted cuddliness brought to mind the west’s wartime image of another Russian leader. I am surprised this one did not sign the piece Uncle Vlad.

What follows is an attempt at parsing Putin:

MOSCOW – RECENT events surrounding Syria have prompted me to speak directly to the American people and their political leaders.
Recent events surrounding Barack Obama have prompted me to speak directly to the American people and their political leaders.

It is important to do so at a time of insufficient communication between our societies.
It is important to do so at a time of insufficient recognition of Russia’s importance.

The potential strike by the United States against Syria, despite strong opposition from many countries and major political and religious leaders, including the pope, will result in more innocent victims and escalation, potentially spreading the conflict far beyond Syria’s borders. A strike would increase violence and unleash a new wave of terrorism.
A strike would increase violence and unleash a new wave of terrorism. My PR team tells me that this article will go live on September 11. Coincidence.

Syria is not witnessing a battle for democracy, but an armed conflict between government and opposition in a multireligious country … This internal conflict, fueled by foreign weapons supplied to the opposition, is one of the bloodiest in the world.
The weapons we supplied to the government were maintaining stability. You let the Qataris and the Saudis ruin it.

From the outset, Russia has advocated peaceful dialogue enabling Syrians to develop a compromise plan for their own future.
From the outset, Russia has assumed that the west would not seek to topple Bashar al-Assad’s regime by force. This is still the case, so I am here to help.

We are not protecting the Syrian government, but international law.
We are not protecting the Syrian government, but our interpretation of international law.

The law is still the law, and we must follow it whether we like it or not. Under current international law, force is permitted only in self-defense or by the decision of the [UN] Security Council.
Syria is not Iraq. Syria is also not Georgia.

No one doubts that poison gas was used in Syria. But there is every reason to believe it was used not by the Syrian Army, but by opposition forces, to provoke intervention by their powerful foreign patrons, who would be siding with the fundamentalists.
No one doubts that poison gas was used by the Syrian government. But you have not thought about it in a realpolitik sort of way. That is what I am here for.

Reports that militants are preparing another attack – this time against Israel – cannot be ignored.
Reports that militants are preparing another attack – this time against Israel – cannot be ignored by members of the US Congress.

It is alarming that military intervention in internal conflicts in foreign countries has become commonplace for the United States.
It is alarming for Russia that despite the US electing a Democrat who opposed the Iraq war and who told me he would “reset” our relations, military intervention in internal conflicts in foreign countries has become commonplace for the US.

Is it in America’s long-term interest? I doubt it.
Is it in America’s long-term interest? Let me help you with that. I am a grown-up statesman, an auteur of realpolitik. Your president is an amateur.

Millions around the world increasingly see America not as a model of democracy but as relying solely on brute force, cobbling coalitions together under the slogan “you’re either with us or against us”.
Readers of The New York Times: your president is no different from George W Bush. Don’t support him. And forget about that Alexei Navalny guy over here.

A new opportunity to avoid military action has emerged in the past few days.
I love John Kerry. Why didn’t you vote for him?

The United States, Russia and all members of the international community must take advantage of the Syrian government’s willingness to place its chemical arsenal under international control for subsequent destruction.
The US must take advantage of this accident of history and trust your friend, Uncle Vlad. (And none of this contradicts what I wrote a few paragraphs ago about how the rebels were the ones using the chemical weapons.)

Judging by the statements of President Obama, the United States sees this as an alternative to military action.
Can you believe that your president hasn’t bothered to talk to your Uncle Vlad for more than 20 minutes? Hasn’t he read George Kennan? We Russians need attention.

My working and personal relationship with President Obama is marked by growing trust. I appreciate this.
My working and personal relationship with President Obama recently reached Kennedy-Khrushchev levels and has since improved marginally. Americans, you should appreciate that I have been so understanding.

I carefully studied his address to the nation on Tuesday.
I smiled throughout his address to the nation on Tuesday.

And I would rather disagree with a case he made on American exceptionalism, stating that the United States’ policy is “what makes America different. It’s what makes us exceptional.” It is extremely dangerous to encourage people to see themselves as exceptional, whatever the motivation. There are big countries and small countries, rich and poor, those with long democratic traditions and those still finding their way to democracy. Their policies differ, too. We are all different, but when we ask for the Lord’s blessings, we must not forget that God created us equal.
Stop interfering. You may be familiar with the Brezhnev Doctrine. This is the Putin Doctrine. Trust your Uncle Vlad.
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Post by Yuri Yukuv Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:12 pm

@RedOranje wrote:Why anyone is attempting to have a serious discussion with someone actively, repeatedly, and seriously using "Obozo" I cannot fathom.  There's naught to be gained from such conversation, unless you just enjoy hearing the talking points and propaganda of the US right wing.
What does my labeling of the president matter? it is not part of my argument or a core issue. I think that nickname is precisely appropriate in this situation as he has proved himself a clown
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Post by Yuri Yukuv Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:19 pm

@che wrote:
@Yuri Yukuv wrote:
europeans are even sending jihadists to Syria.
what the absolute *bleep* are you talking about Laughing

Who says that any american should give to damns about what europeans think? The american public elected Obama to serve their interests and not so some euros can write nice things about him.
you do

Our allies in the face of danger feel their position is threatned and are doubting the strengths of our relationship, all the way from Japan & South Korea to Turkey & Israel.
on a side note, i find it absolutely hilarious that a libertarian hero such as yourself is arguing for the president of the us to do something without the approval of either the public or the congress but you're probably too busy reading alex jones to see the irony
Maybe you should read about the thousands of Jihadis leaving europe and going to Syria, currently Syria is the biggest concentration of Jihadists elements recorded in history with more than 16,000 or so fighters there at the same time (never was more than 2,000-3,000 in afghanistan) As the war has grown and Assad has proven unable to squash the opposition they have grown considerably

If Obama came out tomorrow and said that he would push for a repeal of the 1973 war act I would certianly support him, however this is not what the issue is about Obama maintains that he has authority. He is simply trying to find anyway so he does not have to keep his word, if anything libertarianism maintains that system along with clear rules & consequences should be placed before discretion

What does Alex Jones have to do with anything?


Last edited by Yuri Yukuv on Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Yuri Yukuv Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:25 pm

Davide Moscardelli wrote:I consider myself a libertarian I'm many ways but Yuri come on man at taking without Congressional approval is a far from Libertarian one can go Laughing
Wait, Obama didnt cede his powers to congress he just said that he wanted the nation to have a debate about the issue upon which he will decide. He has maintained that he has authority and could strike syria even if congress does not approve.

The question of congressional delegation of war powers is not solved through the executive branch and everyone knows this! it is an issue that only elected legislators (congressmen) and judges can solve (SCOTUS). Neither Obama or Bush or Clinton have anything to do with the constitutionality of the issue.


Also I would like to ask where was Obama on drone strikes which are everywhere from Yemen to Pakistan to Libya? Where was Obama on having US citizens on his kill list? Where was Obama's love for the constitution in the Libya campaign?

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Post by Juveman17 Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:14 pm

Lol you are acting like I'm a Democract who supports everything Obama does Laughing

Obviously he broke the constitution those times and I disagree with those actions.

But he finally did something constitutional so all I can do is applaud it. This could be a precedent for future US involvements in the region which is a great thing.
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Post by Yuri Yukuv Sat Sep 14, 2013 12:32 pm

A little something for those who still support Obama's actions which empowered a dictator over USA

Listing Demands, Assad Uses Crisis to His Advantage

WASHINGTON — Not long ago, President Bashar al-Assad of Syria seemed a remote and embattled figure, with the United States threatening airstrikes and other Arab leaders denouncing him for having used chemical weapons against his own people.

Yet in recent days, he appears, paradoxically, to have turned the crisis to his advantage, making clear to a global television audience that he aims to use President Obama’s own “red line” against him.

In exchange for relinquishing his chemical arsenal, Mr. Assad said Thursday, he will require that the United States stop arming the Syrian opposition — a demand that might seem wishful from the leader of a devastated country where civil war has left 100,000 dead, two million living as refugees and large swaths of territory beyond his control.

Mr. Assad outlined his demands on Thursday, telling a Russian TV interviewer that the arms-control proposal floated by his patron in Moscow would not be finalized until “we see the United States really wants stability in our region and stops threatening, striving to attack and also ceases arms deliveries to terrorists.”

Secretary of State John Kerry delivered a blunt response to Mr. Assad’s comments after meeting Thursday with Russia’s foreign minister, Sergey V. Lavrov, saying the standard procedures for identifying and securing the weapons were too slow in Syria’s case. “There is nothing standard about this process,” Mr. Kerry said. “The words of the Syrian regime, in our judgment, are simply not enough.”

Mr. Assad, sounding relaxed and confident, hinted in his interview that the Russian proposal — which requires Syria to sign the Chemical Weapons Convention — could become a lever for endless negotiations and delays, much as Saddam Hussein delayed arms control inspectors during the 1990s. “It doesn’t mean that Syria will sign the documents, fulfill the obligations, and that’s it,” Mr. Assad said.

The state-owned Syrian newspaper Al Watan put it bluntly in a headline on Thursday: “Moscow and Damascus pull the rug out from under the feet of Obama.”

ohn Kerry's Russian counterpart mocks him for talking too much

Secretary of State John Kerry's negotiations with the Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov got off to a rocky start Thursday, with the Russian mocking Kerry right at the outset.

"They got off to a really bad start yesterday --- partly because of the Putin op-ed and partly because Kerry in the opening remarks spoke at length --- and I mean at length --- compared to the unprepared few welcoming comments from the Russian counterpart," NBC News foreign correspondent Andrea Mitchell said on "Morning Joe."

"And then the Russian minister said at the end, very tartly, 'Sometimes diplomacy demands silence.'"

Mitchell said the tone improved after a private dinner yesterday evening, but Syrian dictator Bashar Assad's decision to set another precondition for handing over his chemical weapons (he wants the United States to stop arming the rebels, in addition to holding off on a military strike on his regime) is complicating matters.
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Post by RedOranje Sat Sep 14, 2013 12:54 pm

"Look, I've found some talking points from my favourite anti-Obama websites and posted them here. They totally and completely refute any points made in opposition to me because I like them!"
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Post by Juveman17 Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:22 pm

Source: Fox News

What's next you're going to post an O'Reilly factor video? rofl

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Post by Yuri Yukuv Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:53 pm

What the hell? News is from NBC correspondent and the NYT. They reflect the reality of the discussions taking place right now in Geneva. If you do not want to accept opposing views just because they are opposing say so, no need to accuse me of cherry picking from anti-obama propaganda website or like that slovakian guy says from alex jones. (Even though Im pretty sure the fox stooges and alex jones are all in favor of no strike at all)

Now this is what the leader of the moderate rebels has to say about our actions

However the accord was greeted with dismay by the Syrian opposition coalition, who have spent two years appealing to the west to give them the weapons needed to tilt the balance of the civil war in their favour.

“We cannot accept any part of this initiative,” General Selim Idriss, the head of the Free Syrian Army, told reporters in Istanbul.

“Are we Syrians supposed to wait until mid-2014, to continue being killed every day, and to accept (the deal) just because the chemical arms will be destroyed in 2014.”
Again we have disappointed allies and emboldened enemies, thank you USG administration

Putin is emboldened at home and so are his allies, wait for more "anti-gay propaganda" laws or for some businessmen/opposition to commit "suicide" through shooting themselves three times in the head
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Mon Dec 02, 2013 7:59 pm

UN says that Syria's chemical weapon use was ordered from top to bottom with Assad's knowledge

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-25189834
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Post by El Chelsea Fuerte Mon Dec 02, 2013 8:29 pm

Syria should be dealing with its own problems. The international community aka USA should not be involved.

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Post by Juveman17 Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:05 pm

@El Chelsea Fuerte wrote:Syria should be dealing with its own problems. The international community aka USA should not be involved.
Well I hate to break it to you but Isolation policy clearly didn't work when Hitler took over most of Europe nor is it working now in Rwanda. I'm typically against the US getting involved in foreign conflicts except for ones where there is actually a humanitarian crisis. Syria is currently facing that problem but I am unsure whether the US getting involved will solve the problem or create another Iraq/Afghanistan.
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