Syria

El Chelsea Fuerte wrote:Syria should be dealing with its own problems. The international community aka USA should not be involved.

Well I hate to break it to you but Isolation policy clearly didn't work when Hitler took over most of Europe nor is it working now in Rwanda. I'm typically against the US getting involved in foreign conflicts except for ones where there is actually a humanitarian crisis. Syria is currently facing that problem but I am unsure whether the US getting involved will solve the problem or create another Iraq/Afghanistan.

Juveman17 wrote:

El Chelsea Fuerte wrote:Syria should be dealing with its own problems. The international community aka USA should not be involved.

Well I hate to break it to you but Isolation policy clearly didn't work when Hitler took over most of Europe nor is it working now in Rwanda. I'm typically against the US getting involved in foreign conflicts except for ones where there is actually a humanitarian crisis. Syria is currently facing that problem but I am unsure whether the US getting involved will solve the problem or create another Iraq/Afghanistan.

If the U.S. does get involved in Syria (and I think they're talking about bombing something), it would be because of regional interests. No country would actually spend money on a humanitarian crisis, it's always for another reason but to justify said reason (possibly because it may tarnish the country's reputation) it's done under the cover of humanitarian aid. If I remember correctly based on the evidence researched by others, the U.S. supported Saddam's tactics of gassing a particular minority in Iraq because it probably suited them to have Saddam as an ally back then. However, when they no longer needed his help, they betrayed Saddam and portrayed him as an evil dictator (which he may well be) in order to justify invading Iraq (or was it because of those WMD's? ). However, clearly anyone with half a brain would realize that Iraq is still not democratic, and still represses its minorities such as women. Thus, if the international community does go in Syria, they will fight for the cause which suits them, not which suits the Syrian people.

The US is already involved in Syria... you all really need to make a distinction between direct military action and "involvement."

RedOranje wrote:The US is already involved in Syria... you all really need to make a distinction between direct military action and "involvement."

Yes you're right. About a year late with my comments. Should have kept myself updated.

Syria is already destroying their chemical weapons based on a deal with the U.N. they were forced to sign. Another weakened Arab nation definitely benefits Israel/USA.

Being involved in a civil war didn't already make it 'weakened'?

Right, the weapons aren't being destroyed because they were used on civilians or anything... just because it benefits the US (and Russia who were the deal brokers).

Report: Syria tortured and executed 11,000

The government of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad has systematically killed and tortured about 11,000 people, according to a reported based on the evidence of a defector and produced by three former international prosecutors.

The report, commissioned by the government of Qatar and released on Tuesday, examined thousands of pictures said to have been smuggled out by a former military police photographer.

The report shows explicit evidence of starvation, strangulation and beatings, and features pictures of emaciated corpses with livid wounds.

The pictures show ... the systematic murder of detainees by starvation, by torture ... the mutilation of bodies.

Desmond de Silva, former chief prosecutor of the special court for Sierra Leone.

The release came a day before talks were due to begin in Switzerland aimed at negotiating an end to Syria's bloody civil war.

The Syrian denies torturing detainees.

The report was written by Desmond de Silva, the former chief prosecutor of the special court for Sierra Leone; Geoffrey Nice, the former lead prosecutor in the trial of former Yugoslavian President Slobodan Milosevic; and David Crane, who indicted the Liberian president, Charles Taylor.

It features evidence from a forensic pathologist, an anthropologist who investigated mass graves in Kosovo and an expert in digital images.

De Silva said the report was the "smoking gun" showing evidence of "industrial-scale" killing by the Syrian regime.

The defector, identified only as "Caesar", presented about 55,000 images of 11,000 dead prisoners since the start of the uprising in Syria in March 2011.

The evidence was viewed by forensic experts commissioned by a London legal firm representing Qatar.

The defector claims that the victims all died in captivity before being taken to a military hospital to be photographed.

"The pictures show over a period of years the systematic murder of detainees by starvation, by torture, the gouging out of eyes, the hideous beating of people, the mutilation of bodies," De Silva said.

Evidence of starvation

The report says that all but one of the victims were male. Most appeared to be aged between 20 and 40 and a "very significant percentage" showed evidence of starvation.

The defector "informed the inquiry team that there could be as many as 50 bodies a day to photograph which required 15 to 30 minutes of work per corpse", the report said.

He said the purpose of the photos was firstly to be able to issue death certificates - falsely saying that the victims had died in hospital - and secondly to confirm to the regime that executions had been carried out.
A photo presented in the report.

The bodies would then be buried in rural areas.

The authors of the report said they found the informant and his evidence to be credible after subjecting them to "rigorous scrutiny" and have made their findings available to the UN, governments and human rights groups.

The fact that the defector had not claimed to have actually witnessed any of the killings added credibility to his story, they said.

He later escaped from Syria fearing for the safety of his family.

"There came a point a few months ago where he decided that he couldn't take it anymore, so he decided to defect and he left. He could well have gone to Qatar, yes," said De Silva.

Crane called the evidence "amazing" and suggested there was a strong case for prosecution.

"Now we have direct evidence of what was happening to people who had disappeared," he said.

"This is the first provable, direct evidence of what has happened to at least 11,000 human beings who have been tortured and executed and apparently disposed of."

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/01/report-syria-tortured-executed-11000-20141211307452644.html

Yeah it's Asad who kills kids and women in the street everyday and orders married women to sleep with 10 rebels in 2 hours.

make no mistake, Asad is no saint, but he is way better than Suadi Arabia's king and his men are way better than terrorists who are in Syria right now.

RedOranje wrote:Right, the weapons aren't being destroyed because they were used on civilians or anything... just because it benefits the US (and Russia who were the deal brokers).

Any intervention in the Middle East by the U.S.A. is done to enhance Israel's national security. This is hardly debatable.

El Chelsea Fuerte wrote:

RedOranje wrote:Right, the weapons aren't being destroyed because they were used on civilians or anything... just because it benefits the US (and Russia who were the deal brokers).

Any intervention in the Middle East by the U.S.A. is done to enhance Israel's national security. This is hardly debatable.

The only thing that's "hardly debatable" in these discussions is that you (and you're by no means alone in this) are attempting to take a series of very complicated decisions in a highly complex situation and attribute them to a single determining/motivating factor... something absurd even when you HAVE full knowledge of a situation, nevermind when you have only information that fits your personal world view and little to no background in the subject matter.

It seems as if the Assad regime is going strong and will continue to do so. The stability the Assad regime will provide will counter the threat posed by Islamist militant groups who were amongst the rebels.

So, the west decides to intervene into the Syrian civil war by supporting Sunni rebel aka terrorist groups with money and weapons, directly with its intelligence agencies, or via Turkey and Saudi Arabia (who were doing it all along anyway).

A year or so later, a Sunni terrorist militia from Syria sweeps into Iraq, advancing rapidly as they surprisingly have lots of money and weapons.

You got to love the news coverage not connecting the dots here, as usual.

Hapless_Hans wrote:So, the west decides to intervene into the Syrian civil war by supporting Sunni rebel aka terrorist groups with money and weapons, directly with its intelligence agencies, or via Turkey and Saudi Arabia (who were doing it all along anyway).

A year or so later, a Sunni terrorist militia from Syria sweeps into Iraq, advancing rapidly as they surprisingly have lots of money and weapons.

You got to love the news coverage not connecting the dots here, as usual.

Spot on.

This is getting out of control, Saudis are preparing a ground invasion while Turkish artillery has already started openly shelling Kurdish area in Syria. apparently they're going to create a buffer zone deep in Syria. the moment they hit Russians/IRGC/Syrian forces it gets out of hand. Russians are ready to strike back at Turkey.

Shit is about to hit the fan.

Syria is a failed state at this point, and with no end in sight splitting it up between the neighboring countries and the Kurds might really be the best solution.

There is no hope.

Russia are waiting eagerly to attack Turkey and just looking for a chance. Which they will get when Turkey shoot down anything/anyone Russian related.

Saudi are jumping in for the sole reason of not letting Assad regain power and for another state to be ran by Shiites. No idea what army they are going to hire this time since Pakistan have declined to take part. Probably hire few of their fellow ISIS mates

Syria's population will get to 50% in the next 5-10 years if this keeps going on. Europe will continue to get more immigrants. People will continue to die.

BarrileteCosmico wrote:Syria is a failed state at this point, and with no end in sight splitting it up between the neighboring countries and the Kurds might really be the best solution.

No way. After 15 years some group will form to regain Syria. It is pointless. Best solution is to let the current Asad Government continue for a while and split the county for the rebels.

So now Turkey and Soudi are bombing PYD kurds who US called important force against ISIS.

aren't turkey and Soudi their allies?... What is happening?

Adit wrote:So now Turkey and Soudi are bombing PYD kurds who US called important force against ISIS.

aren't turkey and Soudi their allies?... What is happening?

It's a clusterfck, NATO country shelling US allies who are fighting CIA-backed troops.  

Turkey doesn't get their orders from the US when it comes to Kurds, their government regards PYD as a terrorist organization while US doesn't. also PYD are helping Assad to regain rebel held areas in the north.

The Kurds have actually fought ISIS & regained a portion of their country. I see no reason why they should be bombed, when ISIS is supposed to be the evil force. There was no provocation n neither did they attack Turkey.

Turkey is one of the pillars supporting the illegal oil trade with ISIS. There was no reason for them to blow off a Russian plane & kill millions when they had a cordial or atleast a working relation with Russia & ISIS was the target.

Some1 has to get some sense into the Turks.

Russia has never targeted ISIS

Their intervention in Syria is to support Assad and oppose the rebels, no reason why any NATO country should support them. Especially when Assad has killed so many more people than ISIS it's not even a comparison.

This is not to say Assad isn't a bad guy - he probably is & any killing is bad. But Every dictator has killed it's own people. Did Saudi not kill it's own people, even desenters & people protesting for democracy?  Saddam was using chemical weapons at Iran & US was turning a blind eye. The most radical Islamic sect is the wahhabi Saudi ultra radical dynasty.

But if Assad goes Syria plunges into a mess & ISIS takes over. The whole region would explode soon. I don't know y people are so dumb enough to not realize this. ISIS should be taken out 1st

And there is really no proof of Russia doing more damage to rebels than ISIS. Maybe they have hit those rebels, intentionally or un-intentionally & I condemn it, but so far they have been much more effective against ISIS than the NATO forces who frankly suck.

I don't know what business Turkey has in there - If this is going on & there is another provocation like taking another Russian plane then we may soon see Russia bombing Turkey full scale war!

Hasn't Assad killed 10x more civilians than ISIS? What's to say an Assad-led Syria is not better than one by ISIS?

Assad has been in power for decades though.

ISIS already has 1/10 killed is staggering.

My understanding was that those stats were only about this current civil war, but perhaps I'm wrong

Yeah. In the civil war alone, Assad has killed 15,000 people while ISIS has killed 2,000.

http://www.ibtimes.com/syrias-civilian-death-toll-number-isis-victims-2015-much-less-assad-regime-inflicted-2242839

The idea that ISIS is worse and we have to go after them first is absolutely ridiculous and borne out of eurocentric racism.

As for whether Russia is going after the rebels or ISIS, again, that is abundantly clear to anyone who has been paying attention. All of their airstrikes have been in rebel held areas to support Assad in taking them back, and almost all of the casualties have been civilians.

http://time.com/4129222/russia-airstrikes-syria-civilian-casualties-isis/