Bayern Munich vs Juventus

Arquitecto wrote:The essence of his statement is the same as always as Serie A is terrible etc etc. If you are part of the same group who says Serie A is in decline, then I have nothing to say aside from putting you in the blind contingent who is oblivious to the revolution of quality and tactics within the league. If Milan didn't choke to Barca and Juve actually had the balls to take them head on instead of Conte-gate, we wouldn't be speaking about this.

Serie A is improving but we also need to understand that other leagues are on a rapid rise.As much as it pains to me say it,money buys success,its the way it is.

You have the cash-rich PSG/Monaco in Ligue 1, Real/Barca with their 500m annual turnovers,Everybody in the EPL will get rich now with their new TV deal.Now to Serie A's disadvantage ,Bundesliga is on the rise and plus most of their teams are financially sustainable unlike Italian sides.Lack of financial resources + Plus rise of other leagues=decline of the quality in the league.On the youth front ? Serie A is still meh in that regard.It would even be difficult for Italy's best side to compete with these entities in the future.

Note that this post is not a knee-jerk reaction to yesterday's game it takes a lot more than 'tactics' or 'spirit' or whatever for the uprise of this league.It has been a general concern for me since many months as there may be a case we dominate fodder teams in the league and come up short against the big boys in the CL because there isnt much quality in the league or atleast up to standards.

Seems Juve still need to grow in Europe? Although Bayern are just an animal of a team this season, their all round tempo and pressing and so intense and fast, their attacking play very good, defense strong.... Juve just couldnt handle it.

"Bayern best team in the world" without it being Messiah who says it?

Blasphemy.

Dont worry, Roma will save us





































with their 20 year project

Eivindo wrote:People actually believe this Bayern style can beat Barcelona? Too similar and Barca is better at it. It will be goals galore I tell ya.

Jube is still the only hope for humanity against the alien Catalans

Blue print to beating Barcelona:

1. Good fullbacks that can attack and keep the ball and know when to stay at home.

2. CB's that can read the game and close down space when Barca players reach the box.

3. A midfield that can get in the face of Barca's midfield three not allowing them easy passes.

4. Fast wingers who can track back when needed but more importantly must be able to create high percentage chances on the break.

5. Strikers willing to put in high work rate and dummy runs to stretch Barca's back line.

6. A good number of strong athletic players that can create problems for Barca on set pieces and in 50/50 balls.

I'm sitting here and looking at these points and I think Bayern tick all the boxes. They have all the tools in attack plus they have a decent defence. You have to at least think they can do well.

Sushi Master wrote:"Bayern best team in the world" without it being Messiah who says it?

Blasphemy.

Messiah the Prophet it is true now anyway at least IMO.

Eivindo wrote:

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:LOL @ the sig.

Anyway IMO no one in England are either but its not a detriment on the league.

Bayern, Dortmund, Barca and Madrid are just a level above as far as i'm concerned and would beat anyone from England/Italy.

Maybe Juve and Man Yoo can beat them but that is it really.

Delete Madrid from that list plz

Yeah let's add Milan instead : lucas

How the hell does one catch up on a forced football sabbatical? I am so out of it.

I know a year ain't much, kneejerking not considered, but what has changed overall this season?

Who's good, who's bad, who's goatly?

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:

Sushi Master wrote:"Bayern best team in the world" without it being Messiah who says it?

Blasphemy.

Messiah the Prophet it is true now anyway at least IMO.

Won't last long as Pep will ruin them, but I agree they're head and shoulders above everyone.

@surag exactly

money greatly improves likelihood of success and Serie A is losing badly on that front

Arquitecto wrote:
The essence of his statement is the same as always as Serie A is terrible etc etc. If you are part of the same group who says Serie A is in decline, then I have nothing to say aside from putting you in the blind contingent who is oblivious to the revolution of quality and tactics within the league. If Milan didn't choke to Barca and Juve actually had the balls to take them head on instead of Conte-gate, we wouldn't be speaking about this.

I dont understand this statement. Since when do we talk football in terms of "ifs". If Di Maria had better football brain he would be the world best winger, does that work? no.

Point is, Milan didnt choke, they got stomped on by a better team over two legs. What they did in the first leg was heroic. you say they choke, i think they produced a miracle in the first leg.

It's not that Juve are not good, but they got overwhelmed as well by a better team. THey faced a situation that is completely unknown to them, and couldnt make adjustments. The teams that make adjustments are the greater teams, Juventus still have a step to reach. it's good for them, they will get better.

Tbf if we was talking about Ifs Man Yoo would be facing Gala now and Inter would be facing Basle in EL and everyone would be laughing at AVB lol.

Fact is they are not and Madrid and Spurs are one of the favourites for the respective competitions.

Football just doesn't work like that i'm afraid.

Juve will get better but Real,Barca,Bayern and EPL will get stronger.The landscape of football has totally changed.No longer you can say the Italians are 'feared' opponents.Call me pessimistic i dont see an Italian team winning a CL in the coming years and if it happens it would be regarded as a Porto like success story.One has to hope this league doesnt drop down to Ligue 1/Eredivisie levels.(Wouldnt be surprised if it happened though).

Pathetic stadium law sadly is making things much more worse.

Yeah, it's all about making adjustments, those step second reactions to what happens on the pitch, that's how you can truly see if a team are great or not. Mou and madrid showed it in 10min vs man yoo, even if we almost *bleep* it up when Pepe got on the pitch.

On topic, i read a lot of people saying that Juventus are changing their style playing neo catenaccio and trying to counter more and more. why is that? why change what worked before? does that have anything to do with the fact that expectations are weighting heavier on juventus and they are naturally looking for a more cautious way to play the game? if you are all confident that your attacking game is gonna smash the opposition you play your way, but if you are afraid, you change things. This is just the state of juventus as of now imo. fear of failure is creeping up and making them naturally more anxious and cautious as they face tougher challenges. it was unrealistic to expect Juventus to roll out with the same attacking intent they showed vs Chievo when they were goating Serie A months back.

Mr Nick09 wrote:

Arquitecto wrote:
The essence of his statement is the same as always as Serie A is terrible etc etc. If you are part of the same group who says Serie A is in decline, then I have nothing to say aside from putting you in the blind contingent who is oblivious to the revolution of quality and tactics within the league. If Milan didn't choke to Barca and Juve actually had the balls to take them head on instead of Conte-gate, we wouldn't be speaking about this.

I dont understand this statement. Since when do we talk football in terms of "ifs". If Di Maria had better football brain he would be the world best winger, does that work? no.

Point is, Milan didnt choke, they got stomped on by a better team over two legs. What they did in the first leg was heroic. you say they choke, i think they produced a miracle in the first leg.

It's not that Juve are not good, but they got overwhelmed as well by a better team. THey faced a situation that is completely unknown to them, and couldnt make adjustments. The teams that make adjustments are the greater teams, Juventus still have a step to reach. it's good for them, they will get better.

This argument would be valid if Milan played the same system that they did in the first leg. First leg was a 4-3-1-2/4-5-1 hybrid while in the 2nd leg, Allegri pulled an Allegri and played a 4-3-3 without Pazzini who is supposed to be a vital pressing account within that formation. Things aren't as simple as just the better team this and that as otherwise you wouldn't see giants being defeated by tactically astute smaller teams.

Juventus? My point accounts to that if Juventus played their usual system (if you watch Conte long enough then you'll know what I'm talking about) then we might have seen a match in which Juventus could be scrutinized more correctly. It is the same system in which he randomly deploys out of laziness instead of directly studying the opponent. Conte was wrong to use pre-set option instead of adapting to the team itself.

Nothing to do with ifs but analysing on how teams could have optimized on their mistakes pre hand

Arquitecto wrote:

Mr Nick09 wrote:

Arquitecto wrote:
The essence of his statement is the same as always as Serie A is terrible etc etc. If you are part of the same group who says Serie A is in decline, then I have nothing to say aside from putting you in the blind contingent who is oblivious to the revolution of quality and tactics within the league. If Milan didn't choke to Barca and Juve actually had the balls to take them head on instead of Conte-gate, we wouldn't be speaking about this.

I dont understand this statement. Since when do we talk football in terms of "ifs". If Di Maria had better football brain he would be the world best winger, does that work? no.

Point is, Milan didnt choke, they got stomped on by a better team over two legs. What they did in the first leg was heroic. you say they choke, i think they produced a miracle in the first leg.

It's not that Juve are not good, but they got overwhelmed as well by a better team. THey faced a situation that is completely unknown to them, and couldnt make adjustments. The teams that make adjustments are the greater teams, Juventus still have a step to reach. it's good for them, they will get better.

This argument would be valid if Milan played the same system that they did in the first leg. First leg was a 4-3-1-2/4-5-1 hybrid while in the 2nd leg, Allegri pulled an Allegri and played a 4-3-3 without Pazzini who is supposed to be a vital pressing account within that formation. Things aren't as simple as just the better team this and that as otherwise you wouldn't see giants being defeated by tactically astute smaller teams.

Juventus? My point accounts to that if Juventus played their usual system (if you watch Conte long enough then you'll know what I'm talking about) then we might have seen a match in which Juventus could be scrutinized more correctly. It is the same system in which he randomly deploys out of laziness instead of directly studying the opponent. Conte was wrong to use pre-set option instead of adapting to the team itself.

Nothing to do with ifs but analysing on how teams could have optimized on their mistakes pre hand

You know what i think, all those 433/4231, all that are excuses. When you are an elite team, you find ways to win regardless of the shape. If your manager decided to make the change and that was of prejudice to you, then it only further supports my claim that you are not good enough. Milan are not just the players on the pitch, it's a whole organization working together. If the man leading you is going to make brainfart decisions working against you, then it means you are not that good of a team.

Again same thing, another if. Why didnt he play his usual system? i am not here to investigate why they didnt, i saw the game and i saw a juventus side comprehensively beaten and looking naive at times despite all the qualities we know they have. but there is a difference between showing qualities between Genoa, and trying the same vs Bayern Munich. i am looking at the bigger picture, i dont think you can explain to me why they are playing the way they are playing right now, you are merely noting a change, but the point remain that they got beat up. There is still a return leg and maybe they can make that adjustment i am talking about. we will see.

Nick I have said it before I think that in Europe, Conte sees us as levels below any major team and doesn't have enough faith in the squad to let them play the style they've become used to.

Read any Conte pre-match interview in the CL he paints Juventus as a big underdog, on par with Celtic. He clearly believes the only way we can hold our own against the big boys is to play catenaccio. And that's short sighted in a squad where you have the master DLP, and perhaps the best box to box CM in the world accompanied by a great GK and back line.

You know what i think, all those 433/4231, all that are excuses. When you are an elite team, you find ways to win regardless of the shape. If your manager decided to make the change and that was of prejudice to you, then it only further supports my claim that you are not good enough. Milan are not just the players on the pitch, it's a whole organization working together. If the man leading you is going to make brainfart decisions working against you, then it means you are not that good of a team.

No, 4231 and 433 aren't excuses? Why? Well it is the sole reason why certain systematic formations work for a team, work vs another team or just work for your own team as a whole. It doesn't even come down to "good enough" or "not good enough" as such elementary analysis is just plain silly. The 4-3-3 wasn't a brainfart as it was a risk to which simply did not work, not because we aren't "good enough". Is the manager to blame? Yes but so are Niang and El Shaarawy, both who had good enough chances to render this discussion obsolete. It is simple logic, either you use what works v a certain team and extrapolate based on incidental circumstances or you resort back to plan A. A risk was made, it didn't pay off. Happens all the time.

Again same thing, another if. Why didnt he play his usual system? i am not here to investigate why they didnt, i saw the game and i saw a juventus side comprehensively beaten and looking naive at times despite all the qualities we know they have. but there is a difference between showing qualities between Genoa, and trying the same vs Bayern Munich. i am looking at the bigger picture, i dont think you can explain to me why they are playing the way they are playing right now, you are merely noting a change, but the point remain that they got beat up. There is still a return leg and maybe they can make that adjustment i am talking about. we will see.

Why didn't he play the system? Ask the Juve fans who have been questioning this frustrating facet of Conte for 2 years now. Its not just that this rehashed pre-tactic of his doesn't work against Bayern, it hasn't work against Lazio, Napoli, Catania, Nordsjaelland and some provincial sides. Coincidental? No, more of a deviational divergence to which was a naive move by Conte who even stated that he would not focus on studying Bayern, but his own discipline. That stupendous decision did not work. All veteran Juve watchers who aren't sullen in their misery have pointed this out to the point of sounding like a broken record. The crazy Italian media who drove Mourinho nuts with these complex tactical questions are asking the same of Conte on his naive decision to go with a gameplan which has cost him points in all competitions so far. The premise was in not conceding a goal whilst "door-bolting" Bayern along with capitalizing on any given chances. Other questions remain on why he broke up MVP, why the wingbacks were withdrawn and why Quags-Matri was the partnership when it is a suicide move.

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:LOL @ the sig.

Anyway IMO no one in England are either but its not a detriment on the league.

Bayern, Dortmund, Barca and Madrid are just a level above as far as i'm concerned and would beat anyone from England/Italy.

Maybe Juve and Man Yoo can beat them but that is it really.

Is that why we beat them 2-0 at the Allianz

Arquitecto wrote:
Juventus? My point accounts to that if Juventus played their usual system (if you watch Conte long enough then you'll know what I'm talking about) then we might have seen a match in which Juventus could be scrutinized more correctly. It is the same system in which he randomly deploys out of laziness instead of directly studying the opponent. Conte was wrong to use pre-set option instead of adapting to the team itself.

Exactly why i was so confident Juve can beat Bayern and the perfect team to do so. But i guess it's another learning curve for Conte who is still learning despite being fantastic as he is.

Knew this was coming.....

Do you think you would have beat them if they needed to win?

Which is why the two circumstances are not comparable... i wouldn't be surprised if Juve win the 2nd leg.

But Juve struggled playing the ball out of the back, Buffon had a terrible night in particular with his passing. So Conte might actually have a point because Bayern are probably going to have more possession anyway.

Not saying that I agree with Juve being the weaker team or anything like that but I don't blame Conte for trying to keep things tight in the first leg. Bayern know how to keep ball, not just that they have some dangerous wingers as well. Juve trying to impose themselves on the game would have been naive imo.

Bayern are massively overrated on here.

United or Barca would handle them.

I'm pretty confident we can beat them if we came face to face

I normally agree with most of what Arq writes and this is not an exception.

Conte keeps reverting to this system in big games and time and time again it's cost us silly points/games

As for why Conte does it, as i have said I think that he does not have enough belief in our squad. Whenever we face a big team Conte seems to have an idea in his mind we're more in the mould of an Atalanta or a siena and that we can't possibly keep the ball and pin our opponents back. This results in Conte going all 'Catenaccio' on us and stoping our midfielders, wing-backs and team in general from playing to most of their strengths. Perhaps Conte isn't used to managing such a big club yet.

You seen how poorly Pirlo looked, this was not him just having a bad game, this is a tempo dircating, old 'Deep-lying playmaker' being asked to do a job that he's useless at. It's the equivalent of managing a physically and athletically gifted squad with few technical players and trying to implement a tiki taka style of play. You're not using the squad as it's meant to be used.

In most games Conte sets us up beautifully, but in big games he lacks faith and has us playing like a massive underdog would.

Gil wrote:Bayern are massively overrated on here.

United or Barca would handle them.

Finally a decent poster here.

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