Re: God Thread, Pt. III

[Cruijf]

Firstly: You guys all need to learn how to take a joke.

Secondly: The fact that you guys are even trying to refute this cartoon baffles me, seeing as how it's not even a complete argument.

But while you're in the mood, enjoy:

An atheist buys an ancient lamp at an auction, takes it home, and begins to polish it. Suddenly, a genie appears, and says, “I’ll grant you three wishes, Master.” The atheist says, “I wish I could believe in you.” The genie snaps his fingers, and suddenly the atheist believes in him. The atheist says, “Wow. I wish all atheists would believe this.” The genie snaps his fingers again, and suddenly atheists all over the world begin to believe in genies. “What about your third wish?” asks the genie. “Well,” says the atheist, “I wish for a billion dollars.” The genie snaps his fingers for a third time, but nothing happens. “What’s wrong?” asks the atheist. The genie shrugs and says, “Just because you believe in me, doesn’t necessarily mean that I really exist.”

Why did the atheist throw her watch out the window?
She wanted to see if it was designed intelligently enough to evolve into a bird.

Why did the atheist cross the road?
He thought there might be a street on the other side, but he wouldn’t believe it until he tested his hypothesis.

Knock, knock.
Who’s there?
God.
Who?
God.
Who?
God.
Must be the wind.

[bazinga]

Firstly: You guys all need to learn how to take a joke.

Secondly: The fact that you guys are even trying to refute this cartoon baffles me, seeing as how it's not even a complete argument.

But while you're in the mood, enjoy:

An atheist buys an ancient lamp at an auction, takes it home, and begins to polish it. Suddenly, a genie appears, and says, “I’ll grant you three wishes, Master.” The atheist says, “I wish I could believe in you.” The genie snaps his fingers, and suddenly the atheist believes in him. The atheist says, “Wow. I wish all atheists would believe this.” The genie snaps his fingers again, and suddenly atheists all over the world begin to believe in genies. “What about your third wish?” asks the genie. “Well,” says the atheist, “I wish for a billion dollars.” The genie snaps his fingers for a third time, but nothing happens. “What’s wrong?” asks the atheist. The genie shrugs and says, “Just because you believe in me, doesn’t necessarily mean that I really exist.”

Why did the atheist throw her watch out the window?
She wanted to see if it was designed intelligently enough to evolve into a bird.

Why did the atheist cross the road?
He thought there might be a street on the other side, but he wouldn’t believe it until he tested his hypothesis.

Knock, knock.
Who’s there?
God.
Who?
God.
Who?
God.
Must be the wind.

It's the Internet. It's very hard to tell what is a joke and what isn't, especially in cases like that one. Also, I tend to like to get things on the record during debates.

[RedOranje]

This isn't the Life & Humor section though, this is a section for legitimate and serious discussion and debate on the subjects.

If you'd contributed a joke with some shred of credibility or legitimacy to it, that's one thing. Instead you posted an absurdly flawed and shallow sketch that contributes nothing to the thread or the topic. It's basically spam. Your attempt to follow up with MORE of the same only furthers the issue.

[Cruijf]

This isn't the Life & Humor section though, this is a section for legitimate and serious discussion and debate on the subjects.

If you'd contributed a joke with some shred of credibility or legitimacy to it, that's one thing. Instead you posted an absurdly flawed and shallow sketch that contributes nothing to the thread or the topic. It's basically spam. Your attempt to follow up with MORE of the same only furthers the issue.

One could argue my joke(s) had legitimacy to them, seeing as how they do use actual points, they just present them in a comical manner.

I see no difference between my posts and Phritz' dolphin pic a while back. You're presenting perfectly valid points, just in a sarcastic or humorous manner.

Nevertheless, it's clear this has done more harm than good, so I apologise for my alleged spam and I'll return to the topic at hand with an actual point:

Which is still my point, ACMRox, the definition of god is illogical in itself.

It contains mutually exclusive attributes, this makes it logically invalid.

But even if that weren't so, we'd still have to discuss the implications of this. Because we've heard again and again in this thread, that absolute morality can only justified by god.

Yet that's the same god giving Aids to babies for shits and giggles. How can any kind of morality, as we recognize it in modern society, be derived from such behaviour?

I put it to you that it can't.

Your main point was that we can't factor in the after life though. If you believe in God with all his descriptions and traits, then you do factor in the afterlife, and his supposed 'cruelty' is nullified because of the compensation provided.

Factor that in, and His so-called 'mutually exclusive' attributes aren't so mutually exclusive any more.

[VivaStPauli]

If the after life is so great, why can't I go around murdering people? I'm pretty much doing them a favor if I believe in heaven.

Edit: For the record, I thought the "knock knock"-joke was brilliant.

[Cruijf]

If the after life is so great, why can't I go around murdering people? I'm pretty much doing them a favor if I believe in heaven.

1. Violating their rights.
2. It's not whether or not you believe in Heaven, it's whether or not they do.
3. Even if they believe, the longer they live the more chances they have to do good. It's not just belief=reward. It's belief+good deeds=reward.
4. Violating their rights.

All in all, I really hope you're just trolling

Edit: For the record, I thought the "knock knock"-joke was brilliant.

[VivaStPauli]

But if god murders infants it's awesome? Even if they're, say, Burmese infants, who are very unlikely to believe in heaven, if they're lucky to get old enough to grasp the concept?

I just don't get how you reconcile all that clearly not human-caused suffering.

I perfectly get wars etc. being the result of human free will, you might even count famine in that bracket. But some things, like epidemics, earth quakes, and tsunamis have to be sanctioned by god, if you believe in god.

[Cruijf]

But if god murders infants it's awesome? Even if they're, say, Burmese infants, who are very unlikely to believe in heaven, if they're lucky to get old enough to grasp the concept?

All babies that die before infancy (or even before puberty) go to heaven, regardless of beliefs, since they're not old enough to choose right from wrong for themselves.

I perfectly get wars etc. being the result of human free will, you might even count famine in that bracket. But some things, like epidemics, earth quakes, and tsunamis have to be sanctioned by god, if you believe in god.

Tests for the people witnessing them to thank god, for the people suffering to be patient, and for those who die, it's just death. It's their chosen time and method of death.

[bazinga]

But if god murders infants it's awesome? Even if they're, say, Burmese infants, who are very unlikely to believe in heaven, if they're lucky to get old enough to grasp the concept?

All babies that die before infancy (or even before puberty) go to heaven, regardless of beliefs, since they're not old enough to choose right from wrong for themselves.

I perfectly get wars etc. being the result of human free will, you might even count famine in that bracket. But some things, like epidemics, earth quakes, and tsunamis have to be sanctioned by god, if you believe in god.

Tests for the people witnessing them to thank god, for the people suffering to be patient, and for those who die, it's just death. It's their chosen time and method of death.

If a God is omnipotent and omniscient, why does he need to test humans?

[RealGunner]

This isn't the Life & Humor section though, this is a section for legitimate and serious discussion and debate on the subjects.

If you'd contributed a joke with some shred of credibility or legitimacy to it, that's one thing. Instead you posted an absurdly flawed and shallow sketch that contributes nothing to the thread or the topic. It's basically spam. Your attempt to follow up with MORE of the same only furthers the issue.

The dolphin picture a while back had a lot of credibility and legitimacy ?

[rwo power]

I perfectly get wars etc. being the result of human free will, you might even count famine in that bracket. But some things, like epidemics, earth quakes, and tsunamis have to be sanctioned by god, if you believe in god.

Tests for the people witnessing them to thank god, for the people suffering to be patient, and for those who die, it's just death. It's their chosen time and method of death.

So people are supposed to thank god for causing epidemics, earth quakes and tsunamis where they loved ones die? Sounds legit. I should also thank a mass murderer who kills people by infecting them with anthrax or blowing up a bomb to bring a house down etc. After all, if the omniscient and omnipotent God doesn't stop that, it is their chosen time to die, too.

And before you object...
If God allows a person to be killed and thus cuts short a life where they could have done good to redeem themselves, then either "he" already set that death date beforehand and a killer would thus actually be sanctioned by God, or it is a mistake that the person was killed and that would violate the omniscience and omnipotence of God.

[Cruijf]

So people are supposed to thank god for causing epidemics, earth quakes and tsunamis where they loved ones die?

No, it's for the spoiled brat crying about how he didn't get an iPhone 5 to grow up and realize he's very, very privileged. And that's just an example. It's for every last one human on this earth to realize that he's blessed to have what he does, even if he thinks it's nothing.

And before you object...
If God allows a person to be killed and thus cuts short a life where they could have done good to redeem themselves, then either "he" already set that death date beforehand and a killer would thus actually be sanctioned by God, or it is a mistake that the person was killed and that would violate the omniscience and omnipotence of God.

God gave the murderer free will. The murderer abused it. He will be punished.

God did not force the murderer to do what he did. But God knew it would happen and it happened at a time that would have given the victim sufficient time to find the truth and decide for himself.

If this doesn't satisfy you, there's a story from the Quran I wanted to share to address this whole problem anyway.

Basically, there was a man who lived in the time of Musa (Moses) of great wisdom and knowledge named Al-Khidr. Musa heard of this man and sought him out, asking if he could accompany him on his travels and learn from him. Think Sherlock Holmes and John Watson.

They reach a point where they need a boat to carry on, so they ask a passing ferry if they could, essentially, hitch a ride. The group on the boat graciously accepts, and Khidr and Musa board the ferry. Near the end of their time on the boat, when Khidr and Musa are about to disembard, Al-Khidr uses a knife to carve a hole into the boat before leaving. When Musa realizes what happened and the boat is sailing away, Musa becomes furious. Why did you sabotage the boat? Do you want them to drown?

Khidr however, explains.

It just so happened that in the waters that Khidr and Musa were travelling in, there was a tyrannical and greedy king. This King would frequently take passing ships for himself, leaving them stranded. Because Khidr had carved the hole into the boat, the King would see it as undesirable, and the sailors would notice it when wondering why they were left alone, fixing it before it did any harm.

Genius, right?

The point is, God's intelligence is infinite. So just as a human could do something that appears immoral while it's actually quite a kind thing to do, God could be allowing 'evil' things to happen with actual wisdom behind them.

Accept this infinite wisdom as part of the equation, and there's no reason for God to be a paradox any more.

[RealGunner]

You know Al khidr is a prophet

[Cruijf]

You know Al khidr is a prophet

Yes, but Musa didn't know that, Allah SWT just told him that Al Khidr was a wise man, and for the purposes of the story it wasn't really important. The moral was more about the possibility that stuff like that can happen.

[bazinga]

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/important.htm

[RealGunner]

You know Al khidr is a prophet

Yes, but Musa didn't know that, Allah SWT just told him that Al Khidr was a wise man, and for the purposes of the story it wasn't really important. The moral was more about the possibility that stuff like that can happen.

I know lol, i was just saying in case you didn't know because it's not a well known thing

[bazinga]

So people are supposed to thank god for causing epidemics, earth quakes and tsunamis where they loved ones die?

No, it's for the spoiled brat crying about how he didn't get an iPhone 5 to grow up and realize he's very, very privileged. And that's just an example. It's for every last one human on this earth to realize that he's blessed to have what he does, even if he thinks it's nothing.

And before you object...
If God allows a person to be killed and thus cuts short a life where they could have done good to redeem themselves, then either "he" already set that death date beforehand and a killer would thus actually be sanctioned by God, or it is a mistake that the person was killed and that would violate the omniscience and omnipotence of God.

God gave the murderer free will. The murderer abused it. He will be punished.

God did not force the murderer to do what he did. But God knew it would happen and it happened at a time that would have given the victim sufficient time to find the truth and decide for himself.

If this doesn't satisfy you, there's a story from the Quran I wanted to share to address this whole problem anyway.

Basically, there was a man who lived in the time of Musa (Moses) of great wisdom and knowledge named Al-Khidr. Musa heard of this man and sought him out, asking if he could accompany him on his travels and learn from him. Think Sherlock Holmes and John Watson.

They reach a point where they need a boat to carry on, so they ask a passing ferry if they could, essentially, hitch a ride. The group on the boat graciously accepts, and Khidr and Musa board the ferry. Near the end of their time on the boat, when Khidr and Musa are about to disembard, Al-Khidr uses a knife to carve a hole into the boat before leaving. When Musa realizes what happened and the boat is sailing away, Musa becomes furious. Why did you sabotage the boat? Do you want them to drown?

Khidr however, explains.

It just so happened that in the waters that Khidr and Musa were travelling in, there was a tyrannical and greedy king. This King would frequently take passing ships for himself, leaving them stranded. Because Khidr had carved the hole into the boat, the King would see it as undesirable, and the sailors would notice it when wondering why they were left alone, fixing it before it did any harm.

Genius, right?

The point is, God's intelligence is infinite. So just as a human could do something that appears immoral while it's actually quite a kind thing to do, God could be allowing 'evil' things to happen with actual wisdom behind them.

Accept this infinite wisdom as part of the equation, and there's no reason for God to be a paradox any more.

Wonderful little story.

Now explain why somewhere in the world, a six year old's mother lies dying with cancer, and the child has nowhere to go and no one to look after her.

Or tell me why millions of children are caught in a conflict between rebels and soldiers in Syria, Mali, Congo, and why hundreds of innocent people have been killed in Pakistan, Afghanistan and many other places through human actions. Why isn't your omnipotent, omniscient god stopping this slaughter? Are you seriously implying that these people are part of some larger plan which your so called God has for all of us?

[Potential]

Wouldn't we be doing the infant a favor by killing him/her? Ok, I'll start killing infants 'out of love', if god is allowed to do it then why shouldn't be I?

[VivaStPauli]

All babies that die before infancy (or even before puberty) go to heaven, regardless of beliefs, since they're not old enough to choose right from wrong for themselves.

What's the beef with abortion, then? Does seem to be doing the babies a favor.

Tests for the people witnessing them to thank god, for the people suffering to be patient, and for those who die, it's just death. It's their chosen time and method of death.

And how is that not evil by any moral standard?
I ask this, because Theists will often argue to atheists that we can't have an objective validation of morality, because we have no absolute deity to derive it of. (Sidenote: some theists even argue that we can't have morals because of that, but let's not delve into that argument, since it's too easy to debunk)

So I'd really ask of theists this: where, then, do those supposed "objective" morals come from, when god does shit that seems evil all the time?

[rwo power]

What's the beef with abortion, then? Does seem to be doing the babies a favor.

As a matter of fact, if God planned the exact time of a person's birth and death, "he" also planned the time that an embryo to be aborted stays in the womb of the mother, thus in fact enforcing people to abort an embryo if the time is up (unless "he" decides to kill it "him"self, thus being an abortionist "him"self). Interesting idea that I got from that whywontgodhealamputees.com site.

[CBarca]

I just want to raise an issue that I've always thought of, apologies if it has come up before.

Spoiler:

The picture only really makes sense if you read this quote by Carl Sagan. Unless you know about it already, but even then, read it because then you will be able to see my thought process more clearly.

You see what the arrow is pointing at?

That's us.

Can someone please explain to me why God, if he existed, would even give a flying f**k about us? We are a speck of dust on a grand piano (probably less). Yet there is all this significance about humanity that is evident in the bible and in religion. Well, I just don't get it. I'm sorry. It's arrogant to me, we aren't anything special. It sounds so conceited to me.

If God is so omnipotent, what is he doing wasting his time with us when in reality we are absolutely NOTHING.

This is just something I'd like to ask because I'm curious. I'm not looking to argue much, it's simply a question to the theists here.

[VivaStPauli]

Well, I don't think there is a god, but us being on that tiny god really doesn't mean that we're insignificant. There might also be life elsewhere, so we might not be unique at all.

Who knows? The vastness of space is baffling all alone, and Sagan is right. We should cherish our little blue marble. It's not like we got another.

[Cruijf]

What's the beef with abortion, then?

You're not actually pro-abortion are you? Aside from cases where it's a health issue.

[bazinga]

I just want to raise an issue that I've always thought of, apologies if it has come up before.

Spoiler:

The picture only really makes sense if you read this quote by Carl Sagan. Unless you know about it already, but even then, read it because then you will be able to see my thought process more clearly.

You see what the arrow is pointing at?

That's us.

Can someone please explain to me why God, if he existed, would even give a flying f**k about us? We are a speck of dust on a grand piano (probably less). Yet there is all this significance about humanity that is evident in the bible and in religion. Well, I just don't get it. I'm sorry. It's arrogant to me, we aren't anything special. It sounds so conceited to me.

If God is so omnipotent, what is he doing wasting his time with us when in reality we are absolutely NOTHING.

This is just something I'd like to ask because I'm curious. I'm not looking to argue much, it's simply a question to the theists here.

This.

Religious people call atheists arrogant, but there is nothing more arrogant than assuming that an entire universe is made for us.

[bazinga]

What's the beef with abortion, then?

You're not actually pro-abortion are you? Aside from cases where it's a health issue.

I'm pro choice, and guess what, the church agrees.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/01/23/1181447/-A-fetus-is-not-a-person-if-it-costs-us-money-says-Catholic-Church

[Cruijf]

What's the beef with abortion, then?

You're not actually pro-abortion are you? Aside from cases where it's a health issue.

I'm pro choice, and guess what, the church agrees.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/01/23/1181447/-A-fetus-is-not-a-person-if-it-costs-us-money-says-Catholic-Church

Don't know why you brought the church up but whatever...

So I suppose you're pro murder than right? I mean, it's their choice right?

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