Re: God Thread, Pt. III

[free_cat]

Wiki Islam

Written by 5 year old kids

At least is a way to know something about the Quran not in clasical arabic, the only way God could express himself.

It doesn't really matter, my point stands, and is that any religion disfavours science because it's based in faith on certain stuff that is given as a fact, so there's no need (on the contrary, it's against that religion) to research the real truth.

Sad story that of religion.

[RealGunner]

At least is a way to know something about the Quran not in clasical arabic, the only way God could express himself.

Gold also sent down the Bible and the Torah and they weren't in Arabic...

[free_cat]

At least is a way to know something about the Quran not in clasical arabic, the only way God could express himself.

Gold also sent down the Bible and the Torah and they weren't in Arabic...

This God. Has a whole universe to preach his word and only sends prophets in the remote and backwards middle east.

[RealGunner]

Nope, he sent over 124,000 prophets worldwide. But then you don't really have any interest or knowledge in religious history so it's useless and a waste of time to explain how ancient African/Chinese tribes/community believed in the same God and his word as the Muslims or the Christians do/did.

[Potential]

Islam back then is the opposite of what it is now! Alas; that era collapsed and never recovered, leaving everything to be discovered again by later generations.
I believe that if that era never collapsed while the dark ages in christianity were nevee experienced we would be visiting stars!

I cannot believe my eyes... I agree 110%

RIGHT NOW, The Muslim community is basically dead. The Christian Crusades, the end of Muslim Spain, and a whole host of other factors led to The Muslim community being what we are today, not even a tenth of what we should be. But the Islam you're talking about was Islam actually being practised. Don't let what we have now fool you; A true Muslim state founded on the ideals of the Prophet and his companions would be a fantastic addition to the global community, and it would definitely (at least IMO) enhance our current scientific growth rate.

But... But... We can't agree!! I change my mind


@RG
We've been over this, there is no real proof of this.

[VivaStPauli]

Nope, he sent over 124,000 prophets worldwide. But then you don't really have any interest or knowledge in religious history so it's useless and a waste of time to explain how ancient African/Chinese tribes/community believed in the same God and his word as the Muslims or the Christians do/did.

Lolwut?
Historical sources, please. Oh, so please.

[RealGunner]

You don't even believe in Jesus' existence mate

[VivaStPauli]

Huh? I think Jesus probably existed. I'm not entirely convinced, but why not?

I just don't think he rose from the dead, or performed any other kind of miracle.
That being said, you still just made an extraordinary claim, and I really want to see some evidence of ancient tribes worshipping the Big Guy, because this sounds really interesting, and I have, frankly, never heard of that in history class.

[free_cat]

Nope, he sent over 124,000 prophets worldwide. But then you don't really have any interest or knowledge in religious history so it's useless and a waste of time to explain how ancient African/Chinese tribes/community believed in the same God and his word as the Muslims or the Christians do/did.

124.000 prophets for the same God, or you mean a different and contradictory God?

Because I was specifically talking about the Jewish, Islamic and Christian God, who theoretically is the same guy.

A very incompetent guy who is unable to spread one single faith about him, I must add.

[RealGunner]

Huh? I think Jesus probably existed. I'm not entirely convinced, but why not?

I just don't think he rose from the dead, or performed any other kind of miracle.
That being said, you still just made an extraordinary claim, and I really want to see some evidence of ancient tribes worshipping the Big Guy, because this sounds really interesting, and I have, frankly, never heard of that in history class.

Oh i thought you were asking me for the evidence of their existence, my bad lol.

About the African thing.

If you can find this book, then i would recommend it as it explains how the Primitive African tribes believed in the characteristics of God which the Christians, Muslims and the Jewish people do.

Origin and Growth of Religion by Wilhelm Schmidt.

Schmidt found that, throughout the world, primitive cultures have a notion of a supreme god. They believed in one omnipotent being who was a creator of everything, He is eternal, He is all-knowing, However his form cannot be physically represented, and so there are almost never idols of him etc. The tribes of Ainu, Neyam-Neyam, Yoruba and Isoko are some of them.

However it's not something purely based on the African tribes. Native American Indians also have the concept of one God. Along with the fact that Chinese traditions have figures like Jesus and Mohammad who all share the same ideas, and teachings. And of course the Persians.

[RealGunner]

Nope, he sent over 124,000 prophets worldwide. But then you don't really have any interest or knowledge in religious history so it's useless and a waste of time to explain how ancient African/Chinese tribes/community believed in the same God and his word as the Muslims or the Christians do/did.

The same God or you mean a different and contradictory God?

Because I was specifically talking about the Jewish, Islamic and Christian God, who theoretically is the same guy.

A very incompetent guy who is unable to spread one single faith about him, I must add.

Of course it's the same God.

[rwo power]

If you can find this book, then i would recommend it as it explains how the Primitive African tribes believed in the characteristics of God which the Christians, Muslims and the Jewish people do.

Origin and Growth of Religion by Wilhelm Schmidt.

I guess that should be available in German libraries as it was originally a German language work: Wilhelm Schmidt: "Der Ursprung der Gottesidee. Eine historisch-kritische und positive Studie", 1–12, Aschendorff, Münster 1912–1955.

BTW, the French translation is available online as full text: http://archive.org/details/loriginedelide00schmuoft

[Potential]

I like that argument, I don't want to go on quests to disprove it but unfortunately for you, the same argument can be used to prove polytheism, how else can you explain Diana and Artemis being so similar among many others?

[RealGunner]

I like that argument, I don't want to go on quests to disprove it but unfortunately for you, the same argument can be used to prove polytheism, how else can you explain Diana and Artemis being so similar among many others?

Greek Mythology lol? seriously?

In any case they were not God, just fairy tales. Gods are not "born" or "raised" nor "killed"

Although i must admit i need to study more about the Mythologies since there might be something in it. Like i heard about Zeus flooding the earth which i find interesting.

[stevieg8]

RG, there are major discrepancies between the origin myths, attributes of god (aside from unity), and ethics of all of those groups. If you want to claim they're all the same thing, that's fine by me - and actually fits my personal view better. But how can you possibly claim that Islam is "right" or that religious texts are word of God? Under that formulation, there are major contradictions that God specifically gave, things that do not match up and work. The only way Schmidt's theory is workable is if we're discussing human expression of spirituality, rather than divine word.

Also, to claim "Gods are not "born" or "raised" nor "killed"" is working with YOUR definition of a god, not a universal one. Just because it doesn't fit the Islamic definition of god does not mean it's not a god.

[rwo power]

Well, the polytheistic religions have interesting origin myths, too. If you want to call them "fairy-tales" - well, they were real for the ancient folks, and there are enough modern people who consider the current monotheistic religions fairy-tales, too.

You might want to look for the works of Karl Kerényi on Greek mythology as he collected the far distributed fragments in his works and added commentaries to them.

That's the original work:
"Die Mythologie der Griechen", Rhein-Verlag, Zürich 1951–1958;
Band 1: "Die Götter- und Menschheitsgeschichten", 1951;
Band 2: "Die Heroen der Griechen", 1958.

The translated version is called: "The Mythology of the Greeks" (Vol 1: "Gods of the Greeks" and Vol 2: "The Heroes of the Greeks")

Info on Kerényi: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%A1roly_Ker%C3%A9nyi

[Potential]

I like that argument, I don't want to go on quests to disprove it but unfortunately for you, the same argument can be used to prove polytheism, how else can you explain Diana and Artemis being so similar among many others?

Greek Mythology lol? seriously?

In any case they were not God, just fairy tales. Gods are not "born" or "raised" nor "killed"

Although i must admit i need to study more about the Mythologies since there might be something in it. Like i heard about Zeus flooding the earth which i find interesting.

Elaborate... I have the exact same reason to believe in these gods as to believe in the islamic god. And if you were indoctrinated into these gods; I am pretty sure you would believe in them.

[VivaStPauli]

Greek Mythology lol? seriously?

Abrahamitic Mythology lol? Seriously?

In any case they were not God, just fairy tales. Gods are not "born" or "raised" nor "killed"

In any case, god can't be real, real gods live on Mount Olympos, they're born from each other, or from the corpses of Titans, and they sire demigod heroes to perform incredible tasks, not just sit aorund in some metaphysical cloud construct! He has to be just a fairy tale!

Although i must admit i need to study more about the Mythologies since there might be something in it. Like i heard about Zeus flooding the earth which i find interesting.

It's also very interesting that the Abrahamitic traditions took the real story of resurrection from proper gods like Enki or Osiris and stole them for their supposed "Jesus".



See?
This post is obviously a troll post, yet my arguments are no different than the ones put forward by Christians and Muslims.
That really should make you think those arguments over.

[RealGunner]

RG, there are major discrepancies between the origin myths, attributes of god (aside from unity), and ethics of all of those groups. If you want to claim they're all the same thing, that's fine by me - and actually fits my personal view better. But how can you possibly claim that Islam is "right" or that religious texts are word of God? Under that formulation, there are major contradictions that God specifically gave, things that do not match up and work. The only way Schmidt's theory is workable is if we're discussing human expression of spirituality, rather than divine word.

Also, to claim "Gods are not "born" or "raised" nor "killed"" is working with YOUR definition of a god, not a universal one. Just because it doesn't fit the Islamic definition of god does not mean it's not a god.

I am not talking from Islamic point of view mate but rather a general theist one. I personally (i.e not other Muslims ) believe in one God for every religion. It's the same God whether it's Judaism or Christianity. With Abrahamic religions it gets even more close. I have not said anything against Judaism or Christianity. Think we both touched on this a bit before, I respect the old testament a lot. I am nearly at the end of it now and if you ever get the chance of reading the Quran, you will see that the views are 80% alike. My apologies if i offended you or your beliefs in any way since i thought i wasn't saying anything diabolical. If you are interested i can PM you some of the ideas i have and we can talk about it related to Judaism and Islam

Schmidt's theory works when we are talking in a general sense about God. For example talking about his characteristics. Of course i can't sit here and say that most of the world believes in that same god which isn't true however what i am saying is that The idea of that same God which we worship now was not all of a sudden invented by Abraham but that it was there before and was not exclusive to Middle East.

Finally, the general definition of God can be said as "the one Supreme Being" I don't think it's wrong is it ?

[RealGunner]

I like that argument, I don't want to go on quests to disprove it but unfortunately for you, the same argument can be used to prove polytheism, how else can you explain Diana and Artemis being so similar among many others?

Greek Mythology lol? seriously?

In any case they were not God, just fairy tales. Gods are not "born" or "raised" nor "killed"

Although i must admit i need to study more about the Mythologies since there might be something in it. Like i heard about Zeus flooding the earth which i find interesting.

Elaborate... I have the exact same reason to believe in these gods as to believe in the islamic god. And if you were indoctrinated into these gods; I am pretty sure you would believe in them.

I don't think i would believe in a god who was raised by a sheep...

[RealGunner]

Abrahamitic Mythology lol? Seriously?

Historical evidence of the existence of Jesus, Moses and Muhammad all there. You can find the tomb of Muhammad with his grave inside in Saudi Arabia. There is every detail of where they all came from and when and how they died and how they all spent their life.

Compared to that, Greek mythology looks like Harry potter.

In any case, god can't be real, real gods live on Mount Olympos, they're born from each other, or from the corpses of Titans, and they sire demigod heroes to perform incredible tasks, not just sit aorund in some metaphysical cloud construct! He has to be just a fairy tale!

This one made me laugh

God born from each other won't be god but humans

It's also very interesting that the Abrahamitic traditions took the real story of resurrection from proper gods like Enki or Osiris and stole them for their supposed "Jesus".

Maybe Enki was Jesus himself ?

See?
This post is obviously a troll post, yet my arguments are no different than the ones put forward by Christians and Muslims.
That really should make you think those arguments over.

Oh you weren't serious

Of course i understand that, i have been in that situation many times. But common sense always prevails though

[rwo power]

Maybe Enki was Jesus himself ?

This would be tricky as Jesus was believed to have lived 2000 years ago, while the Sumerian religion is quite a bit older (from somewhere around 2500 BCE or more).

But then, Gilgamesh is about from that time, too, and the Gilgamesh Epos recounts a big flood as well. The Bible is just a big piece of plagiarism

[Potential]

Maybe Enki was Jesus himself ?

This would be tricky as Jesus was believed to have lived 2000 years ago, while the Sumerian religion is quite a bit older (from somewhere around 2500 BCE or more).

Well, the son of god can obviously live forever and resurrect himself.

Greek Mythology lol? seriously?

In any case they were not God, just fairy tales. Gods are not "born" or "raised" nor "killed"

Although i must admit i need to study more about the Mythologies since there might be something in it. Like i heard about Zeus flooding the earth which i find interesting.

Elaborate... I have the exact same reason to believe in these gods as to believe in the islamic god. And if you were indoctrinated into these gods; I am pretty sure you would believe in them.

I don't think i would believe in a god who was raised by a sheep...

Oppa, we are so close... All we have to do now is remove the 'who was raised by a sheep part'

Let's replace that by things like... Homophobic god, a god who disappeared when science came (obviously science is more powerful than god), one who gave diseases such as aids to little boys in south africa.

[RealGunner]

Maybe Enki was Jesus himself ?

This would be tricky as Jesus was believed to have lived 2000 years ago, while the Sumerian religion is quite a bit older (from somewhere around 2500 BCE or more).

But then, Gilgamesh is about from that time, too, and the Gilgamesh Epos recounts a big flood as well. The Bible is just a big piece of plagiarism

lol i didn't eve know who Enki was till i googled him. Not much information on the net which i trust so i'll try look up some books on this particular mythology.

Gilgamesh (Epic of Gilgamesh) is very interesting though. Mainly because it's like the oldest story out there. I don't think Bible was plagiarized from it but that the author was the same. Can't be proved though

[RealGunner]

Oppa, we are so close... All we have to do now is remove the 'who was raised by a sheep part'

Let's replace that by things like... Homophobic god, a god who disappeared when science came (obviously science is more powerful than god), one who gave diseases such as aids to little boys in south africa.

lmao, you are so desperate

Keep believing in that mate, you are on the right path

[rwo power]

Gilgamesh (Epic of Gilgamesh) is very interesting though. Mainly because it's like the oldest story out there. I don't think Bible was plagiarized from it but that the author was the same. Can't be proved though

Well, in the Epic of Gilgamesh (sorry, I used the German term "Gilgamesh Epos") you still have a polytheist background, while in the Bible you have a monotheist background. So if that was the same author, s/he appears to be somewhat confused

(Although the Bible does start with "elohim" who created the world in 6 days, with "elohim" apparently originally being a plural form, too.)

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