Catalan independence process

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Post by free_cat Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:14 pm

@harhar11 wrote:
@free_cat wrote:Catalan independence process - Page 4 E5iqko

Some pictures comparing the two demonstrations. What a difference hahaha! And the demonstration for independence could have 10 more pictures like those.

tbf mate, wouldnt the guys who wants independence have a bigger need to go to the demonstration?

Maybe, but that doesn't matter.
What we, catalan democrats, ask is simple: let the people decide. Make a referendum and count the votes and act accordingly.
What they, spanish nationalist, want it'hs the opposite: don't let people decide.

Three acts of violence, all of them started by spanish nationalists.
I never saw that coming. :coffee:

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Post by harhar11 Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:24 pm

@free_cat wrote:
@harhar11 wrote:
@free_cat wrote:Catalan independence process - Page 4 E5iqko

Some pictures comparing the two demonstrations. What a difference hahaha! And the demonstration for independence could have 10 more pictures like those.

tbf mate, wouldnt the guys who wants independence have a bigger need to go to the demonstration?

Maybe, but that doesn't matter.
What we, catalan democrats, ask is simple: let the people decide. Make a referendum and count the votes and act accordingly.
What they, spanish nationalist, want it'hs the opposite: don't let people decide.

Three acts of violence, all of them started by spanish nationalists.
I never saw that coming.
:coffee:

Neither did I... Oh wai...



Ultra Sur calls for hunt against "catalufos"

Edit: watching that video again with the father. If you paus at 0:00 you can see that the guy behind him whips him with the flag. The father overreacted but I belive that most people would have reacted the same way..

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Post by free_cat Mon Oct 22, 2012 12:03 pm

Cool, so we agree that it was the spanish nationalist father who was violent. Settled.

On other notes, basque elections were held yesterday and nationalists parties won a big majority in the parliament:
Basque Nationalist party (PNV) 27 congressmen
EH-Bildu (left-wing independentists): 21 congressmen
PSOE: 16
PP: 10
UPyD: 1

Both PNV and Bildu want to make a referendum of independence, although they have not been as vocal as catalan parties.
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Post by CBarca Mon Oct 22, 2012 10:29 pm

So Free_Cat, what would you rate your chances of getting independence at this point in time...as a percentage. 20%, 50%...?

Random memory: I remember last year around this time of the year in my Spanish class, a bunch of Spanish natives came to our school, they were in the US for 2 weeks, but here at my school only for a couple days. Nonetheless, they came into our Spanish class and we were allowed to converse in English/Spanish, and then we asked questions as a group to the Spanish kids. I asked what they thought about Catalan independence, and whether it was possible, what they're chances were, and if it was a realistic goal for the Catalan people.

A couple of them replied that they did not think it was possible. They said they kind of "laugh at them (Catalans)" for it- while that sounds particularly insulting, I think it was because they didn't know how to phrase it in English. They said that it was possible, but that they never expect it to ever happen, and that it is a mere pipe dream for the Catalan people.
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Post by free_cat Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:29 am

Awesome video from this New Yorker called Sharif:



He understands catalan sentiments and I really like his ending of the video. We want to start from scratch and make a new, more democratic and better country. Let's do this!
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Post by free_cat Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:36 am

@CBarca wrote:So Free_Cat, what would you rate your chances of getting independence at this point in time...as a percentage. 20%, 50%...?

Random memory: I remember last year around this time of the year in my Spanish class, a bunch of Spanish natives came to our school, they were in the US for 2 weeks, but here at my school only for a couple days. Nonetheless, they came into our Spanish class and we were allowed to converse in English/Spanish, and then we asked questions as a group to the Spanish kids. I asked what they thought about Catalan independence, and whether it was possible, what they're chances were, and if it was a realistic goal for the Catalan people.

A couple of them replied that they did not think it was possible. They said they kind of "laugh at them (Catalans)" for it- while that sounds particularly insulting, I think it was because they didn't know how to phrase it in English. They said that it was possible, but that they never expect it to ever happen, and that it is a mere pipe dream for the Catalan people.

Who knows, it is certainly not an easy path, but I think we are closer than ever before. I'll quote a post I made in the politics section about the odds:

@free_cat wrote:

I don't know how likely it is. It's not an easy path. We first need a political majority that wants to exercise our right of self-determination. This majority exists and will most likely be confirmed and enlarged in the elections on the 25th of november.

We then need to hold a referendum on creating a catalan state. This will be very difficult as spanish laws don't allow catalan government to make such a referendum without central government permission, and central government will obviously deny it. Our President said yesterday that if Spanish law doesn't allow the referendum, it will be done anyway, which I think it's democratic and makes sense. However, Spain might try to stop the referendum putting our President in jail or closing down the electoral colleges with the policemen. Catalan police should then stop spanish police from doing any of those things.

If we finally can hold a referendum, we must then win it. Poll show a big majority for independence (50% in favour, 25% against, rest undecided or don't care). However, going into the referendum Spain will put all their media trying to scare catalans, and I don't know if it can work.

If we win the referendum, we must then create the catalan state, which will need of some negotiation with Spain and the international community. Spain could also apply the constitution and send the army to catalonia and invade us, but that seems very unlikely.

So it is a hard and difficult path, mostly because of Spain's intransigence and undemocratic culture, but IMO we are in a point of no return, at least when it comes to making a referendum. If we will win it or not, that's another thing, but I'm sure there will be a referendum in the next 4 years at most.

Oh, on those guys insulting Catalonia, it's quite possible that they really meant to be insulting, we are constantly suffering insulting comments from spanish press, politics and famous people, so it's quite possibly that normal people also insult us.
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Post by free_cat Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:50 am

Catalan elections are next sunday.
Last polls predicted a win by current president's party, CIU, with around 64 members. The overall pro-referendum members in the party would be around 90 over the 135 total.

However, since the last polls, there have been a lot of political movement.
As foreseen by many, spanish media is attacking the catalan president, Artur Mas, accusing him of corruption and tax fraud (never saw that coming) mentioning a police report about current accounts in Switzerland. Several judges have stated that this report doesn't exist but spanish politicians are using the news to attack Artur Mas.

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Post by FCBarça Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:57 am

Several subtitled interviews over at The Guardian of people in Spain over the question of Catalan Indepedence...Very revealing, I feel...Few really were able to overcome historic prejudices while some simply pointed out Catalunya wouldn't benefit economically from it - ignoring all the other cultural, social & political reasons why many would want it

I don't know whether the country can benefit better from Independence or not but what I have observed over the last decade (Through friends in Spain and during my visits) is that Catalans suffer from widespread prejudices in the country - particularly from the capital...They deserve better and at the very least respect that they do not receive...Economically, they are absolutely taken advantage of by the capital but Independence would/could isolate them financially, as well

Not a simple question to answer but they certainly have the right to decide for themselves
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Post by free_cat Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:48 am

Btw, two new videos from Sharif, the american guy who was in 9/11 demonstrations in Barcelona:

https://vimeo.com/53543211

https://vimeo.com/53962070

Respect!
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Post by free_cat Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:49 am

@FCBarça wrote:Several subtitled interviews over at The Guardian of people in Spain over the question of Catalan Indepedence...Very revealing, I feel...Few really were able to overcome historic prejudices while some simply pointed out Catalunya wouldn't benefit economically from it - ignoring all the other cultural, social & political reasons why many would want it

I don't know whether the country can benefit better from Independence or not but what I have observed over the last decade (Through friends in Spain and during my visits) is that Catalans suffer from widespread prejudices in the country - particularly from the capital...They deserve better and at the very least respect that they do not receive...Economically, they are absolutely taken advantage of by the capital but Independence would/could isolate them financially, as well

Not a simple question to answer but they certainly have the right to decide for themselves

It certainly is not a simple question. However, I think that we should be given the right to choose, that's what we are asking right now and that's what Spain doesn't even want to let us.
Thanks for your insightful post!
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Post by free_cat Sun Nov 25, 2012 6:23 pm

Half an hour to close the polls.

I'm near a nervous breakdown.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Sun Nov 25, 2012 6:25 pm

How long do you think it'll take for the polls to be counted Free?
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Post by free_cat Sun Nov 25, 2012 6:31 pm

@BarrileteCosmico wrote:How long do you think it'll take for the polls to be counted Free?

We catalans must be world's best in counting votes, 99% of votes are counted in less than two hours usually, so they'll be counted around 22:00.
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Post by free_cat Sun Nov 25, 2012 6:52 pm

7 minutes for the closing of polls and the survey of catalan tv which is usually extremely accurate.
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Post by free_cat Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:08 pm

According to TV3 survey this are the results:

CIU 54-57 Independentists
ERC 20-23 Independentists
PSC 16-18 Unionists
PP 16-18 Independentists
ICV 10-12 Favour autodetermination
C's 6-7 Unionists
CUP 5-6 Independentists

The independentist parties would improve the general support but CIU would suffer a setback.
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Post by free_cat Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:18 pm

88% votes counted:

CIU 50 Independentists
PSC 21 Unionist
ERC 20 Independentists
PPC 19 Unionist
ICV 13 Favour self-determination but undecided
C's 9 Unionist
CUP 3 Independentists

so at the moment 73 independentist parliamentaries over 135 (absolute majority) vs. 39 unionist and 13 undecided!
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Post by free_cat Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:16 pm

Almost final results, there will probably be no more changes or one parliamentary at most. 98% of votes counted:

CIU 50 Independentists
ERC 21 Independentists
PSC 20 Unionist
PPC 19 Unionist
ICV 13 Favour self-determination but undecided
C's 9 Unionist
CUP 3 Independentists

so at the moment 75 independentist parliamentaries over 135 (absolute majority) vs. 48 unionist and 13 undecided.

I'm a bit sad with the results, because the independentism is majority, but polls showed a bigger landslide and especially the main party CIU has suffered a big setback and they'll have less power to lead the process, bu it's still possible.


Last edited by free_cat on Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by The Franchise Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:21 pm

So going forward, whats next?
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Post by Le Samourai Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:23 pm

cheers

Keep Spain United Razz
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Post by free_cat Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:37 pm

@The Franchise wrote:So going forward, whats next?

To form government and approve laws that allow a referendum for independence in the next months/years.
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Post by windkick Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:20 pm

I know Barca wouldnt leave La Liga, but I am curious..

Can some one name all of the Catalan clubs? And also a separate list with all of the Basque clubs? I wonder what a league of the two would look like (and how La Liga would look)
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Post by Arquitecto Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:32 pm

@windkick wrote:I know Barca wouldnt leave La Liga, but I am curious..

Can some one name all of the Catalan clubs? And also a separate list with all of the Basque clubs? I wonder what a league of the two would look like (and how La Liga would look)

Here are all the Basque clubs.
Deportivo Alavés
SD Amorebieta
Amurrio Club
Añorga KKE
Antiguoko
Apurtuarte Club
Arenas Club de Getxo
UD Aretxabaleta
CD Aurrerá de Vitoria
Aviron Bayonnais FC

Barakaldo CF
CD Baskonia
SD Beasain
Bermeo FT
CFS Bilbao
Bizcaya (football team)

Club Ciclista de San Sebastián

SCD Durango

CD Elgoibar
SD Erandio Club

Genêts Anglet
Gernika Club
CD Getxo

SD Indautxu

CD Lagun Onak
CD Laudio
SD Leioa
SD Lemona

Oiartzun KE
Ordizia KE
SD Oyonesa

Club Portugalete

Real Unión
SD Retuerto Sport

SD Salvatierra
Club San Ignacio
SD San Pedro
CD Santurtzi
Santutxu FC
Sestao River Club
Sestao Sport Club
CD Sondika

Tolosa CF

CD Vitoria

Zalla UC
Zamudio SD
Zarautz KE


Free will provide the Catalan ones.

In essence, a separate league composed of Basque and Catalan clubs would appeal to me given a great deal of both provincial clubs focus on youth and development of their local youth.
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Post by free_cat Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:21 pm

Main catalan clubs:

Barça
Espanyol
Girona FC
Sabadell
Nàstic Tarragona
Llagostera
Reus
Badalona
Sant Andreu
el Prat
Hospitalet
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Post by BarcaKizz Thu Nov 29, 2012 3:14 pm

I just finished an article on a potential Catalan XI. Have a read guys:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1426190-fabregas-pique-and-a-potential-independent-catalan-xi

Disclaimer: I tried to include a few more non-Barca players than I would have liked/necessary. Tbh I'd also be very happy with alternatives to this.

Thoughts?
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Post by free_cat Thu Nov 29, 2012 3:54 pm

Good selection, didn't even know that Kiko Casillas or Victor Ruiz were catalan!

Verdu has played a couple of times as LW for Catalunya and did great, and as you mention Sergio García becomes a star when playing for Catalonia.

Other players that could be considered:
Angel Range RB -Swansea
Jonathan Soriano - Striker Red Bull Sazlburg
Jordi Gomez CM - Wigan
Ferran Corominas - FW Elche (doing great at 2a).
Albert Crusat - LW Wigan

And probably some other expat who plays in Spain or abroad and don't remember.
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Post by BarcaKizz Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:10 am

@free_cat wrote:Good selection, didn't even know that Kiko Casillas or Victor Ruiz were catalan!

Verdu has played a couple of times as LW for Catalunya and did great, and as you mention Sergio García becomes a star when playing for Catalonia.

Other players that could be considered:
Angel Range RB -Swansea
Jonathan Soriano - Striker Red Bull Sazlburg
Jordi Gomez CM - Wigan
Ferran Corominas - FW Elche (doing great at 2a).
Albert Crusat - LW Wigan

And probably some other expat who plays in Spain or abroad and don't remember.

Aahh... I forgot Soriano! I used to always have him in there. He's doing great.

Didn't know Rangel was Catalan, he'd definitely be backup RB.

Considered Coro, but didn't choose him.
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