Would you be against the scrapping of International football?

Dnmac4 wrote:

farfan wrote:

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:




I'm done, you are clearly delusional.

delusional ?  i'm not the one who's trying to paint Germany as " Bayern - all the foreign players " as if the German team doesn't have a shitload of world class talents in other Bundesliga  teams and abroad .

spain had Barça's core + Ramos , Casilllas , Alba  , Alonso , Silva,  Mata , Navas ...
you think Messi's presence outweighs all these names ?

You pretend Messi is the only non-Spanish player on those Barcelona teams.  Not to mention you leave out which Barca team you would actually like to compare it to?

Is it 2012 where they had Messi, Dani Alves, Mascherano, Abidal, Alexis Sanchez, Thiago, Keita and Adriano?

Because yes that Barca team would beat that Spain team as they really have no need for Ramos with Puyol and Pique or Silva or Mata or Alonso as they had the best midfield in the world in Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Thiago, Cesc and Mascherano.

i'm mostly talking about 2008-2011 Barça, the one that lifted 3 Ligas and 2 CLs.

and lol at that entirely spanish midfield + a guy who was mostly used as a CB ( Masch )
Spain could've fielded that + Silva, Koke ,Cazorla , Gabi , Alonso etc..
Spain had more depth in midfield , GK and defense than any version of Pep's barça .

it really comes down to Messi and Alves and whether you believe these two would be enough to make up for the talent and depth disparity between the two teams .

All you English fans would be singing a different tune if your country did anything worth a damn in international football.
Just because you are not emotionally invested in NT football you don't have the right to spout nonsense like this.

You think the lesser teams of Europe and the Americas would dare talk such bs? Do you know the joy my Jamaican friends felt when Jamaica was playing in the Gold Cup?  

How did you think the Costa Rican's felt when they watched the 2014 WC? Even the simple act of qualifying that you guys take for-granted was an area of great pride for them and many other small countries. And you would take that away from them? Because of your English entitlement.  

Downright disgusting and childish.

farfan wrote:

Dnmac4 wrote:

farfan wrote:


delusional ?  i'm not the one who's trying to paint Germany as " Bayern - all the foreign players " as if the German team doesn't have a shitload of world class talents in other Bundesliga  teams and abroad .

spain had Barça's core + Ramos , Casilllas , Alba  , Alonso , Silva,  Mata , Navas ...
you think Messi's presence outweighs all these names ?

You pretend Messi is the only non-Spanish player on those Barcelona teams.  Not to mention you leave out which Barca team you would actually like to compare it to?

Is it 2012 where they had Messi, Dani Alves, Mascherano, Abidal, Alexis Sanchez, Thiago, Keita and Adriano?

Because yes that Barca team would beat that Spain team as they really have no need for Ramos with Puyol and Pique or Silva or Mata or Alonso as they had the best midfield in the world in Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Thiago, Cesc and Mascherano.

i'm mostly talking about 2008-2011 Barça, the one that lifted 3 Ligas and 2 CLs.

and lol at that entirely spanish midfield + a guy who was mostly used as a CB   ( Masch )
Spain could've fielded  that + Silva, Koke ,Cazorla , Gabi , Alonso etc..
Spain had more depth in midfield , GK  and defense than any version of Pep's barça  .

it really comes down to Messi and Alves and whether you believe these two would be enough to make up for the talent and depth disparity between the two teams .

No your wrong and here is why your missing the point.  Spain cannot field all of those players.  They can filed 11 at a time.

Depth was never an issue for Pep at Barca.

And you can try and laugh all you want at Masche but since he's been with Barca he's played more minutes than probably 80% of the team.  Not to mention he's a terrific international player as well.

And LOL at dropping all the way back to when Pep first started with Barca, then you bring in players like prime Eto'o, Henry, Yaya, Abidal (at his best would take him all day over Alba) Ibra etc.

In this case you are wrong. These Barca teams would crush that Spain team.

It's the same team but upgraded with world class players.

And again it's not just Messi and Alves.  

You keep moving your argument around to support your theory which is flawed.  Now it's not the 2012 team it's 2008-2011 Barca.  So does that mean I can cherry pick off of each team and have a forward line of prime Eto'o, Ibra and Villa?

My Defensive midfield options would be Busquets, Masche and Yaya?  That's depth right there.

The only argument you even have a shot at is Spain has better reserves and if this were the NBA or the NFL that may make a difference but you only get 3 subs at a time, who cares how many players Spain "could field" the fact is most of them never even see the field because Barcelona players are ahead of them all of which  would be in my team plus the best player in the world and about 3-4 other world class players.

And you throw on top of it the training together all year round.  This really shouldn't even be a debate.

i didn't move anything  we were talking about the Spain that won everything vs the Barça that won everything, that's roughly 2008-2012 for Spain  and 2008-2011 for Barça. i don't have a problem with including Pep's last season  even though they didn't do shit that year .

the idea that depth should just be ignored and that we should solely focus on the starting 11 is ridiculous .. that's not how football works .
in a hypothetical one off encounter  Barça should be favored , but if both teams were to take part in a season long competition like La liga  , a tournament like the CL for WC etc... my money would be on Spain .

Barça  = stronger 11.
Spain = stronger squad .

imo Spain would've cruised to a league title against that  Barça that had a bench comprised of Bojan , Afellay  , Keita , Maxwell etc..

I'm with farfan insofar as noone in their right mind would call that Spain NT 'crap'.

I'm not with him in claiming how it would fare against Barca, as club teams obviously spend much more time training together etc.

But to claim international football is generally 'crap' is pretty mindless snobbery. Mole's specialty.

Hapless_Hans wrote:
I'm not with him in claiming how it would fare against Barca, as club teams obviously spend much more time training together etc.
.

but this is an entirely hypothetical situation . if you're imagining Xavi and Iniesta vs Xavi and iniesta ,ignoring stuff like extended training time and team compatibility is not a crazy proposition for an entirely fictitious encounter that can never happen in the real world .

farfan wrote:

Hapless_Hans wrote:
I'm not with him in claiming how it would fare against Barca, as club teams obviously spend much more time training together etc.
.

but this is an entirely hypothetical situation . if you're imagining Xavi and Iniesta vs Xavi and iniesta ,ignoring stuff like extended training time and team compatibility is not a crazy proposition for an entirely fictitious encounter that can never happen in the real world .

I didn't say it was crazy. I'd tend to say that highest level club football would edge it against highest level national teams, but again I'd agree with you that there's surely not automatically a huge gulf in class, since you're right to point out that the Spain squad is, and was, ridiculously stacked.

farfan wrote:i didn't move anything  we were talking about the Spain that won everything vs the Barça that won everything, that's roughly 2008-2012 for Spain  and 2008-2011 for Barça. i don't have a problem with including Pep's last season  even though they didn't do shit that year .

the idea that depth should just be ignored and that we should solely focus on the starting 11 is ridiculous .. that's not how football works .
in a hypothetical one off encounter  Barça should be favored , but if both teams were to take part in a season long competition like La liga  , a tournament like the CL for WC etc... my money would be on Spain .

Barça  = stronger 11.
Spain = stronger squad .

imo Spain would've cruised to a league title against that  Barça that had a bench comprised of Bojan , Afellay  , Keita , Maxwell etc..

Again, you're wrong.

And you obviously didn't watch very much of Barca during Pep's time there as he didn't substitute much at all and even media members were stunned no one was getting seriously injured because of the way Pep played his team.

There was an uncanny and almost lucky feel to the way he managed that team and there subs.  You can check the minutes played.

And again if you let me cherry pick off those teams than again Barca is the better side.  Who is getting into the team that already isn't on my team?

Silva wouldn't, they have Messi, the midfield belongs to Barca and you can throw in Yaya and Masche as cover or start them and Thiago as well.

Defense is all Barca as Pique and Puyol are the CB's and Abidal is just a better player than Alba and Alves was unreal over that time frame plus I would have Milito off the bench.

Forwards need not be discussed as i would have Prime Eto'o, Ibra, Villa, Henry, Messi if that's where you choose to play him.  On the wing you have prime Pedro over Navas ect.

The only position really is keeper and the gulf between Casillas and Valdes is not massive although i much prefer Casillas.

But I do wonder where this massive talent gap in reserves happens to be as again Pep kept a very small rotation and did so with unprecedented results so one would have to assume he would do it again evern though I could bring players like Ibra and Villa off the bench, or Yaya and Masche in midfield.

Again, the argument just isn't there.

farfan wrote:

Hapless_Hans wrote:
I'm not with him in claiming how it would fare against Barca, as club teams obviously spend much more time training together etc.
.

but this is an entirely hypothetical situation . if you're imagining Xavi and Iniesta vs Xavi and iniesta ,ignoring stuff like extended training time and team compatibility is not a crazy proposition for an entirely fictitious encounter that can never happen in the real world .

On the other side of the coin you can't just ignore that the Barca side would have 5 times the amount of training time together than your team would.

You can't just pretend that isn't a factor. It's massive.

if we're even going to have this discussion then we should be willing to suspend disbelief . i chose to ignore the training factor just like we're ignoring   the fact that we don't have 2 Xavis or 2 busquets to face each other .
basically picture spain vs barça in the same conditions .

other than 1 or 2 players ( Isco and Koke , for some reason i thought they were selected in 2012  ) , i think all the players i mentioned played with each other at one point or another in that 2008-2012 period . so having a barça team made up of Etoo , Ibra and Villa doesn't sound right or fair for this comparison .

Prime Spain would be favourites in knockout competitions but prime Barca would win a league format IMO. That Busquets-Alonso double pivot with Xavi infront of them flanked by 2 "wide midfielders" (Iniesta, Silva) + Casillas in goal was the ultimate tournament team. Spain didn't concede a single knockout round goal from 2008 until 2014.

Barca on the other hand barely kept clean sheets. Even an injured Arsenal team somehow managed 2 goals. Barca had the firepower though. Alves, Messi, Eto'o, Henry can't be replaced.

In any case, Mole's initial statement that "most top teams would beat Spain easily" is rubbish. Yeah, maybe prime Barca would but anyone else will not "easily" beat this XI in its prime:


Only a Robben type of real winger instead of Silva away from being the ultimate team.

No way prime Spain would beat a knockout competition in club football. That 'prime' Spain scored only 1.1 goals per game, was a penalty away from being kicked out by Paraguay (Martino ) and only won the final because Robben pulled his best Higgy impression. It's unlikely they would ever get that lucky again in a knock out format. Forget about Prime Spain vs Prime Barca, I don't think they could get past Prime Atleti.

Lay down the crackpipe. Shall I start listing the "luck" on the way to Barca's titles? You know, that 10 men Arsenal being a Bendtner toepoke away from kicking Barca out in Camp Nou.

The difference is that Barca won games decisively and by sometimes huge margins. If you consistently only win games by 1 goal margins luck will have a much bigger role to play.

NT football is far more equal because NTs can't pick and choose the players from all over the globe for their teams...  they get what they get and need to make the most out of it.  I love it.

The Bosman ruling destroyed the integrity of club football.  Thank god there's NT football so that there's some mystery to the game.

Any of the top 20 NTs can beat each other without it being a huge surprise. (i'm not talking FIFA rankings lol. The true top 20)