Re: Basically today it was official that CR beats Messi for Balon D'Or

by Doc Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:47 am

I actually was of the belief Milito should have more been in the top 3 than Sneijder but I digress. Thankfully, Kev and Mole made 2 very nice input in this otherwise crazy and highly enjoyable thread.

Unfortunately, the new voting process would make most things mute as in the end, whoever is the more hyped one would win it.

by billionmillion Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:56 pm

Adit wrote:CR dont have to win the Euros imo just like Messi being a contender with out winning any major trophies

Ronaldo can not win ballon dor without major titles. he is not messi

until now CR did not do anything better than any striker. there are 5 players who scored 3 goals. i'm sure only scoring will not help any player to win ballon dor

Ozil can win he has great chance if germany wins euro. He was very important for r.madrid (25 assists). Despite Messi was Ozil+Ronaldo for Barcelona with 29 assists+73 goals smoking

by FalcaoPunch Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:13 pm

Argentina never carried Messi.
In fact... they wanted to drop him.

He was utter shit in the WC and WC Qualifiers.
Not to mention Copa America.

by Zealous Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:24 pm

At this rate Ozil places higher than Messi at the Balon D'Or ceremony hmm

by BigBadBen Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:26 pm

Zealous wrote:At this rate Ozil places higher than Messi at the Balon D'Or ceremony

Don't get your hopes up buddy.

Messi will win it, Ronaldo will come second, and I'd assume Iniesta or Xavi will come third.

It would be good to see Ozil get 3rd place though, he deserves it.

by Zealous Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:40 pm

Why shouldn't Ozil place higher than Messi? hmm

The Balon D'Or should be celebrating winners and top preformers for club and country not goals in dead rubber games and friendlies.

Reward winners not numbers :bow:

Ozil4silverball

by BigBadBen Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:42 pm

Whether, we think he deserves it or not, is not the point.

I think we all know, that the voters, will vote for Messi, followed by Ronaldo, and then someone else.

If I had my way, Pirlo & Ozil would be in the top 3, but alas, I do not.

by Harmonica Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:43 pm

Kev wrote:The Ballon Dor is an award that is designed to acknowledge a player, who, throughout the calendar year, achieved extraordinary feats on a personal level which ultimately resulted in major successes for that player's team. In other words, this award is the icing on the cake of a player who inspired his team to glory during the year. It is NOT some statistical accolade presented to a player with the highest shots on target per attempted direct assist ratio. It supposed to be symbolic, not numerical.

Had Messi not existed, Ronaldo would have won the past few editions of this award, not because Ronaldo's statistics would have been unparalleled, but because he would have achieved more with his club teams due to the absence of Messi in Barcelona. Messi winning of the 2011 Ballon dor boils down to two games- the one against Real Madrid in the first leg of the semifinals in the CL, and the CL final itself. He won it NOT because he scored 53 goals.

If Ronaldo inspires Portugal to achieve its first international trophy, then it would be a travesty to award this year's Ballon D'or to any other player. Messi scores 21423482394823423 goals. So what? Ronaldo scored 60+ and has consequently ended Real Madrid's three year La Liga drought and Portugal's 100 trophy drought. If Ronaldo wins, it's not because he scored 60+ goals, it's because he scored 60+ goals which resulted in his team's great successes.

If the Ballon Dor deviates from this basis, which I'm beginning to suspect it has, then it has lost all value IMO. Messi's win in 2010 definitely supports my assertion.

Still don't believe that some people are so thick about something so obviously defined. The Ballon d'Or is not for some random player of winning team, it's not a team prize. It's for the best player of the season. Ballon d'Or has been won without titles, and will be won without titles. It's practically what you do in the season/ year. Messi has been unparralled this season individually. Cronaldo has only chance to beat him if he wins Euros for Portugal by himself, which btw has not been the case thus far.

by Kev Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:26 pm

jiopsi wrote:
Kev wrote:The Ballon Dor is an award that is designed to acknowledge a player, who, throughout the calendar year, achieved extraordinary feats on a personal level which ultimately resulted in major successes for that player's team. In other words, this award is the icing on the cake of a player who inspired his team to glory during the year. It is NOT some statistical accolade presented to a player with the highest shots on target per attempted direct assist ratio. It supposed to be symbolic, not numerical.

Had Messi not existed, Ronaldo would have won the past few editions of this award, not because Ronaldo's statistics would have been unparalleled, but because he would have achieved more with his club teams due to the absence of Messi in Barcelona. Messi winning of the 2011 Ballon dor boils down to two games- the one against Real Madrid in the first leg of the semifinals in the CL, and the CL final itself. He won it NOT because he scored 53 goals.

If Ronaldo inspires Portugal to achieve its first international trophy, then it would be a travesty to award this year's Ballon D'or to any other player. Messi scores 21423482394823423 goals. So what? Ronaldo scored 60+ and has consequently ended Real Madrid's three year La Liga drought and Portugal's 100 trophy drought. If Ronaldo wins, it's not because he scored 60+ goals, it's because he scored 60+ goals which resulted in his team's great successes.

If the Ballon Dor deviates from this basis, which I'm beginning to suspect it has, then it has lost all value IMO. Messi's win in 2010 definitely supports my assertion.
Still don't believe that some people are so thick about something so obviously defined. The Ballon d'Or is not for some random player of winning team, it's not a team prize. It's for the best player of the season. Ballon d'Or has been won without titles, and will be won without titles. It's practically what you do in the season/ year. Messi has been unparralled this season individually. Cronaldo has only chance to beat him if he wins Euros for Portugal by himself, which btw has not been the case thus far.

Give me ONE example, just one, of a player who has won the Ballon Dor without winning any major titles, or at least getting close to winning one. Go on, I dare ya.

Even if we used your criteria, the fact that a person who possesses the fastest average leg movement velocity while running does not merit that person the Ballon Dor. The fact that a person has the best chest control does not mean that he deserves the Ballon Dor. The fact that a person has the best assist/ possession ratio does not mean he should win the Ballon Dor. In essence, the person with the best technique, or the best athleticism, or the best vision, does not necessarily mean he will win the Ballon Dor. The best player does not necessarily win it in a given year.

Why? Because it's important performances that eventually lead to glory that matters. Ballon Dor is more sentimental than you'd expect, as shown by Cannavaro's win in 2006.

Plus, Messi's 70 goals, albeit an exceptional achievement, is somewhat hollow. His was the sole main goalscorer for his team, so he was supposed to be scoring this number of goals, as his main goalscoring "threats" on his team were absent or underpar. I'd like to see Messi score 70 if Henry and Eto'o were on this team.

by Lex Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:50 pm

Baggio - 1993 - Juventus

All Juventus did that year was come second in Serie A

by Grande_Milano Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:58 pm

Lex wrote:Baggio - 1993 - Juventus

All Juventus did that year was come second in Serie A

thats why messi will take it unless cr gets to the finals

by BigBadBen Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:03 pm

Ronaldo would need to win it.

Gettin' to the finals would not be enough, in my opinion.

by Kev Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:51 am

Lex wrote:Baggio - 1993 - Juventus

All Juventus did that year was come second in Serie A

Juventus won the 1992- 1993 UEFA Cup against Borussia Dortmund, with Baggio himself scoring 2 and assisting another throughout the two legs.
Also, Juventus came fourth in Serie A in 1992- 1993.

Q.E.D.

by Harmonica Sat Jun 23, 2012 2:23 am

Kev wrote:
jiopsi wrote:
Kev wrote:The Ballon Dor is an award that is designed to acknowledge a player, who, throughout the calendar year, achieved extraordinary feats on a personal level which ultimately resulted in major successes for that player's team. In other words, this award is the icing on the cake of a player who inspired his team to glory during the year. It is NOT some statistical accolade presented to a player with the highest shots on target per attempted direct assist ratio. It supposed to be symbolic, not numerical.

Had Messi not existed, Ronaldo would have won the past few editions of this award, not because Ronaldo's statistics would have been unparalleled, but because he would have achieved more with his club teams due to the absence of Messi in Barcelona. Messi winning of the 2011 Ballon dor boils down to two games- the one against Real Madrid in the first leg of the semifinals in the CL, and the CL final itself. He won it NOT because he scored 53 goals.

If Ronaldo inspires Portugal to achieve its first international trophy, then it would be a travesty to award this year's Ballon D'or to any other player. Messi scores 21423482394823423 goals. So what? Ronaldo scored 60+ and has consequently ended Real Madrid's three year La Liga drought and Portugal's 100 trophy drought. If Ronaldo wins, it's not because he scored 60+ goals, it's because he scored 60+ goals which resulted in his team's great successes.

If the Ballon Dor deviates from this basis, which I'm beginning to suspect it has, then it has lost all value IMO. Messi's win in 2010 definitely supports my assertion.
Still don't believe that some people are so thick about something so obviously defined. The Ballon d'Or is not for some random player of winning team, it's not a team prize. It's for the best player of the season. Ballon d'Or has been won without titles, and will be won without titles. It's practically what you do in the season/ year. Messi has been unparralled this season individually. Cronaldo has only chance to beat him if he wins Euros for Portugal by himself, which btw has not been the case thus far.
Give me ONE example, just one, of a player who has won the Ballon Dor without winning any major titles, or at least getting close to winning one. Go on, I dare ya.

Matthews 1956
Law 1964
Müller 1970
Keegan 1978
Platini 1983 (cup)

Again, it's not just the titles.

by Mr Drew Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:03 pm

Kev wrote:
Lex wrote:Baggio - 1993 - Juventus

All Juventus did that year was come second in Serie A
Juventus won the 1992- 1993 UEFA Cup against Borussia Dortmund, with Baggio himself scoring 2 and assisting another throughout the two legs.
Also, Juventus came fourth in Serie A in 1992- 1993.

Q.E.D.

So now the UEFA Cup, the predecessor to the Europa League, counts as a major trophy? That would be considered a Mickey Mouse Cup by today's standards :coffee:

by harhar11 Sun Jun 24, 2012 1:18 pm

Dont forget Rivaldo winning it when Man Utd won the treble while Barca only won the league that year..

by Kingofeverythingclassy Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:11 pm

ColoJunior wrote:Argentina never carried Messi.
In fact... they wanted to drop him.

He was utter shit in the WC and WC Qualifiers.
Not to mention Copa America.

This is not true. I remember watching the Argentina match against Nigeria where Messi was VERY VERY Good basically pawning whole of Nigeria defense & setting up tap-ins for this FWD who seemed to score but I thought he was absolutely 0 talent guy.

The forward was Higuain who is a Good Goal Scorer though with limited Technical Ability & would become a Good Player at Madrid later

by Kingofeverythingclassy Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:15 pm

So Portugal got to the semis beating a Czech,Denmark & a squabbling & old Oranje team with a DUD coach so Ronaldo is great again.

Messi IMO is a MUCH better player & deserves the Ballon & its not even a comparison.

But if ROnaldo manages to beat both Spain at the semis & possibly Germany in the finals & win the title with a great performance in both matches maybe he would deserve the Ballon too.

I am neither a Messi or a Ronaldo fan but at this point it would take Something Amazing like winning the Euros to dislodge Messi. Frankly I dont think Ronaldo is good enough.

by Zealous Sun Jun 24, 2012 6:29 pm

harhar11 wrote:Dont forget Rivaldo winning it when Man Utd won the treble while Barca only won the league that year..

But he still had a major trophy.

by jibers Sun Jun 24, 2012 6:34 pm

jiopsi wrote:
Kev wrote:
jiopsi wrote:
Kev wrote:The Ballon Dor is an award that is designed to acknowledge a player, who, throughout the calendar year, achieved extraordinary feats on a personal level which ultimately resulted in major successes for that player's team. In other words, this award is the icing on the cake of a player who inspired his team to glory during the year. It is NOT some statistical accolade presented to a player with the highest shots on target per attempted direct assist ratio. It supposed to be symbolic, not numerical.

Had Messi not existed, Ronaldo would have won the past few editions of this award, not because Ronaldo's statistics would have been unparalleled, but because he would have achieved more with his club teams due to the absence of Messi in Barcelona. Messi winning of the 2011 Ballon dor boils down to two games- the one against Real Madrid in the first leg of the semifinals in the CL, and the CL final itself. He won it NOT because he scored 53 goals.

If Ronaldo inspires Portugal to achieve its first international trophy, then it would be a travesty to award this year's Ballon D'or to any other player. Messi scores 21423482394823423 goals. So what? Ronaldo scored 60+ and has consequently ended Real Madrid's three year La Liga drought and Portugal's 100 trophy drought. If Ronaldo wins, it's not because he scored 60+ goals, it's because he scored 60+ goals which resulted in his team's great successes.

If the Ballon Dor deviates from this basis, which I'm beginning to suspect it has, then it has lost all value IMO. Messi's win in 2010 definitely supports my assertion.
Still don't believe that some people are so thick about something so obviously defined. The Ballon d'Or is not for some random player of winning team, it's not a team prize. It's for the best player of the season. Ballon d'Or has been won without titles, and will be won without titles. It's practically what you do in the season/ year. Messi has been unparralled this season individually. Cronaldo has only chance to beat him if he wins Euros for Portugal by himself, which btw has not been the case thus far.
Give me ONE example, just one, of a player who has won the Ballon Dor without winning any major titles, or at least getting close to winning one. Go on, I dare ya.

Matthews 1956
Law 1964
Müller 1970
Keegan 1978
Platini 1983 (cup)

Again, it's not just the titles.

Kev where is your response?

by harhar11 Sun Jun 24, 2012 6:37 pm

Zealous wrote:
harhar11 wrote:Dont forget Rivaldo winning it when Man Utd won the treble while Barca only won the league that year..

But he still had a major trophy.

But compare that the Man Utd who had just won the CL, PL and the cup... That was a case of performance>>>>>title for the Ballon d'or

by Zealous Sun Jun 24, 2012 6:56 pm

Not really, no one in that United team stood out as a potential best player.

This is not the case this year. Cristiano stands out as a deserved winner individually and he helped his team win a big trophy.

Spain winning the World Cup in 2010 helped Messi a lot for example. If Holland or any other team with a clear ''star'' won the Balon D'Or would not have gone to Messi.

by harhar11 Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:53 am

Zealous wrote:Not really, no one in that United team stood out as a potential best player.

This is not the case this year. Cristiano stands out as a deserved winner individually and he helped his team win a big trophy.

Spain winning the World Cup in 2010 helped Messi a lot for example. If Holland or any other team with a clear ''star'' won the Balon D'Or would not have gone to Messi.

didnt beckham get like a huuuuge amount of assist that season? and we know that people give alot of importance to stats for some reason. So if he got alot of assist + won the treble why wouldnt he win ballon d'or?

by Zealous Mon Jun 25, 2012 7:41 am

Again he didn't stand out above his team mates. There was no clear ''they couldn't have won without him'' player imo.

Same with Spain, there was no clear player who made you stop and think and say that they couldn't have done it wothout him. Spain and that United team were a complete team effort.

Rivaldo was carrying Barca that year and he won a major trophy.

by harhar11 Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:05 am

exactly he was carrying barca as did messi do this year to even bigger extent plus he won the spanish cup, the cup that was apparently the most important just a year ago Rolling Eyes

by Zealous Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:20 am

Yeah but Madrid and Portugal have Ronaldo who has been just as big and important.

And no the cup was never more important than the league lol

Last year's cup was nice because we beat you in the final and ended our trophy drought. That's all.

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