Re: Basically today it was official that CR beats Messi for Balon D'Or

by Zealous Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:20 pm

Yeah but Madrid and Portugal have Ronaldo who has been just as big and important.

And no the cup was never more important than the league lol

Last year's cup was nice because we beat you in the final and ended our trophy drought. That's all.

by harhar11 Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:35 pm

Not for Real Madrid. As it has been shown, without Messi barca would have finished 6th in the league where as without Ronaldo Real Madrid would have still won the league.

I just dont see how you can think that Ronaldo has been as important for Real Madrid as Messi has been for Barca...

And Ronaldo was absolutely awful for the first 2 games for Portugal and if it wasnt for his teammates, Ronaldo would have cost Portugal a place in the quarter-final and then imho, he hasnt done enough in the other 2 games to really say that he has been as important for them as Messi has been for Barca. Maybe goalscoring wise but NOT performance wise..

by buddytaller Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:48 pm

Without Messi Barcelona will still have finished second, maybe 20 points behind Madrid but certainly ahead of Valencia and Malaga.

I really wonder why people say Ronaldo's first two games were awful, besides his missed chances he did ok for his team whenever he had the ball, he tried playing less selfish, I could count about three or four clear chances he created for his teammates in the match against Germany alone, against Denmark he was very good, bar that horrific miss at the end.

Either way, he's done more than enough to win the Ballon D'Or no matter the outcome of the match between Spain and Portugal, Portugal have already overachieved and Ronaldo has played his part. I just hope he scores a goal or two and finish as the competition's top scorer.

by kiranr Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:06 pm

Actually if you take the bare minimum criteria of influence as scoring or assisting a goal to cut the lead or draw level or take the lead, then CR is better than Messi by 4 considering only La Liga and CL.

by Zealous Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:18 pm

kiranr wrote:Actually if you take the bare minimum criteria of influence as scoring or assisting a goal to cut the lead or draw level or take the lead, then CR is better than Messi by 4 considering only La Liga and CL.

(I knew Cristiano was good in that area but I'm genueinly surprised that he is better at Messi in this lol)

by B.Groden Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:00 pm

What you people fail to remember is regardless of how well of a tournament he is having, this year he has now won the championship in the worlds two most competitive leagues. Breaking every record along the way.

by Kev Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:29 am

jiopsi wrote:
Kev wrote:
jiopsi wrote:
Kev wrote:The Ballon Dor is an award that is designed to acknowledge a player, who, throughout the calendar year, achieved extraordinary feats on a personal level which ultimately resulted in major successes for that player's team. In other words, this award is the icing on the cake of a player who inspired his team to glory during the year. It is NOT some statistical accolade presented to a player with the highest shots on target per attempted direct assist ratio. It supposed to be symbolic, not numerical.

Had Messi not existed, Ronaldo would have won the past few editions of this award, not because Ronaldo's statistics would have been unparalleled, but because he would have achieved more with his club teams due to the absence of Messi in Barcelona. Messi winning of the 2011 Ballon dor boils down to two games- the one against Real Madrid in the first leg of the semifinals in the CL, and the CL final itself. He won it NOT because he scored 53 goals.

If Ronaldo inspires Portugal to achieve its first international trophy, then it would be a travesty to award this year's Ballon D'or to any other player. Messi scores 21423482394823423 goals. So what? Ronaldo scored 60+ and has consequently ended Real Madrid's three year La Liga drought and Portugal's 100 trophy drought. If Ronaldo wins, it's not because he scored 60+ goals, it's because he scored 60+ goals which resulted in his team's great successes.

If the Ballon Dor deviates from this basis, which I'm beginning to suspect it has, then it has lost all value IMO. Messi's win in 2010 definitely supports my assertion.
Still don't believe that some people are so thick about something so obviously defined. The Ballon d'Or is not for some random player of winning team, it's not a team prize. It's for the best player of the season. Ballon d'Or has been won without titles, and will be won without titles. It's practically what you do in the season/ year. Messi has been unparralled this season individually. Cronaldo has only chance to beat him if he wins Euros for Portugal by himself, which btw has not been the case thus far.
Give me ONE example, just one, of a player who has won the Ballon Dor without winning any major titles, or at least getting close to winning one. Go on, I dare ya.

Matthews 1956
Law 1964
Müller 1970
Keegan 1978
Platini 1983 (cup)

Again, it's not just the titles.

Stanley Matthews- came second in the league with BLACKPOOL. Helped Blackpool achieve its best league results in history.

Denis Law- won the league in 1964- 1965. Came second in the league in 1963- 1964 by four points (close). Lost the semi finals in the FA Cup in 1964.

Gerd Muller- came third in the world cup in 1970, came second in the league by 4 points (close).

Kevin Keegan- European Cup in 1977. Bundesliga in 1978- 1979. European Super Cup Runners Up in 1977. British Home Championship in 1978.

Michel Platini- Runners Up in European Cup in 1983. Coppa Italia in 1983. Came second in the league by 4 points in 1983 by four points (close).

As you can see, these players all came very close to winning something or actually won something. Clearly, they were monumental in their team's successes. The Ballon D'or should be congratulating individual players for their enormous influence on their team's successes.

The only real exception is Kevin Keegan, who i don't believe deserves the 1978 BD, given his team's performances. The vice versa applies to Sneijder in 2010, where he should have won it, given that he helped his teams win three trophies and nearly a WC as well.

by Harmonica Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:59 am

Kev wrote:
jiopsi wrote:
Kev wrote:
jiopsi wrote:
Kev wrote:The Ballon Dor is an award that is designed to acknowledge a player, who, throughout the calendar year, achieved extraordinary feats on a personal level which ultimately resulted in major successes for that player's team. In other words, this award is the icing on the cake of a player who inspired his team to glory during the year. It is NOT some statistical accolade presented to a player with the highest shots on target per attempted direct assist ratio. It supposed to be symbolic, not numerical.

Had Messi not existed, Ronaldo would have won the past few editions of this award, not because Ronaldo's statistics would have been unparalleled, but because he would have achieved more with his club teams due to the absence of Messi in Barcelona. Messi winning of the 2011 Ballon dor boils down to two games- the one against Real Madrid in the first leg of the semifinals in the CL, and the CL final itself. He won it NOT because he scored 53 goals.

If Ronaldo inspires Portugal to achieve its first international trophy, then it would be a travesty to award this year's Ballon D'or to any other player. Messi scores 21423482394823423 goals. So what? Ronaldo scored 60+ and has consequently ended Real Madrid's three year La Liga drought and Portugal's 100 trophy drought. If Ronaldo wins, it's not because he scored 60+ goals, it's because he scored 60+ goals which resulted in his team's great successes.

If the Ballon Dor deviates from this basis, which I'm beginning to suspect it has, then it has lost all value IMO. Messi's win in 2010 definitely supports my assertion.
Still don't believe that some people are so thick about something so obviously defined. The Ballon d'Or is not for some random player of winning team, it's not a team prize. It's for the best player of the season. Ballon d'Or has been won without titles, and will be won without titles. It's practically what you do in the season/ year. Messi has been unparralled this season individually. Cronaldo has only chance to beat him if he wins Euros for Portugal by himself, which btw has not been the case thus far.
Give me ONE example, just one, of a player who has won the Ballon Dor without winning any major titles, or at least getting close to winning one. Go on, I dare ya.

Matthews 1956
Law 1964
Müller 1970
Keegan 1978
Platini 1983 (cup)

Again, it's not just the titles.
Stanley Matthews- came second in the league with BLACKPOOL. Helped Blackpool achieve its best league results in history.

Denis Law- won the league in 1964- 1965. Came second in the league in 1963- 1964 by four points (close). Lost the semi finals in the FA Cup in 1964.

Gerd Muller- came third in the world cup in 1970, came second in the league by 4 points (close).

Kevin Keegan- European Cup in 1977. Bundesliga in 1978- 1979. European Super Cup Runners Up in 1977. British Home Championship in 1978.

Michel Platini- Runners Up in European Cup in 1983. Coppa Italia in 1983. Came second in the league by 4 points in 1983 by four points (close).

As you can see, these players all came very close to winning something or actually won something. Clearly, they were monumental in their team's successes. The Ballon D'or should be congratulating individual players for their enormous influence on their team's successes.

The only real exception is Kevin Keegan, who i don't believe deserves the 1978 BD, given his team's performances. The vice versa applies to Sneijder in 2010, where he should have won it, given that he helped his teams win three trophies and nearly a WC as well.

And Messi came close to win league (2) and CL (SF), and actually won 4 titles for them being the best player in every competition he participated. Not only that he also broke almost all scoring records there is in one season, and most of all broke the all time goal scoring record for a club, and club+int, assisting 36 goals with it, again more than anybody. Now you see why Messi deserves the Ballon d'Or? He was the best player in every competition, and that's what the Ballon d'Or is all about, simple as that.

by Zealous Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:11 am

You are so deluded I almost feel embaressed for you. lol

by Harmonica Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:11 am

Oh joy. Hypenaldos number one fangirl reporting in.

by B.Groden Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:07 pm

[/quote]And Messi came close to win league (2) and CL (SF), and actually won 4 titles for them being the best player in every competition he participated. Not only that he also broke almost all scoring records there is in one season, and most of all broke the all time goal scoring record for a club, and club+int, assisting 36 goals with it, again more than anybody. Now you see why Messi deserves the Ballon d'Or? He was the best player in every competition, and that's what the Ballon d'Or is all about, simple as that.[/quote]

Please explain to me how messi was the best player in the champion's league this year? And don't tell me it's because of that 5 goal performance against.... I can't even recall the teams name. Where was the best player in tournament when he was 12yrds out with a chance to put barca in the finals? And was he really the best player in la liga? Or was it that other guy that scored the game winner to clinch the title at camp nou?

by Harmonica Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:10 pm

B.Groden wrote:
And Messi came close to win league (2) and CL (SF), and actually won 4 titles for them being the best player in every competition he participated. Not only that he also broke almost all scoring records there is in one season, and most of all broke the all time goal scoring record for a club, and club+int, assisting 36 goals with it, again more than anybody. Now you see why Messi deserves the Ballon d'Or? He was the best player in every competition, and that's what the Ballon d'Or is all about, simple as that.

Please explain to me how messi was the best player in the champion's league this year? And don't tell me it's because of that 5 goal performance against.... I can't even recall the teams name. Where was the best player in tournament when he was 12yrds out with a chance to put barca in the finals? And was he really the best player in la liga? Or was it that other guy that scored the game winner to clinch the title at camp nou?

Messi & Cronaldo La Liga 2011-2012

Goals:

Messi 50 (10 penalty)
Cronaldo 46 (12 penalty)

Accuracy:

Messi 5.5 shots/ goal
Cronaldo 6.9 shots/ goal

Individuality of goals:

Messi, 22/50 or 44% were directly assisted (no involvement in buildup play)
Cronaldo, 35/46 or 80% were directly assisted (no involvement in buildup play)

Assists:

Messi 20
Cronaldo 12

Creativity:

Messi 56 throughballs, 92 key passes (resulting in a shot)
Cronaldo 19 throughballs, 60 key passes (resulting in a shot)

Build up play:

Messi 176 dribbless
Cronaldo 73 dribbless

Lost posession:

Messi 96 dispossessed + 61 turnovers = 157 times
Cronaldo 79 dispossessed + 86 turnovers = 165 times

MoM (whoscored.com)

Messi 24
Cronaldo 15

Importance of stats:

Here is La Liga 11-12 without Messi's and Cronaldo's goals, and assists:

Basically today it was official that CR beats Messi for Balon D'Or - Page 7 MessiCronoLaLiga

Basically today it was official that CR beats Messi for Balon D'Or - Page 7 MessiCronoLaLiga

http://king-football.com/bb/?p=431

Messi got points for the team in 15 games, 35 overall.
Cronaldo got points for the team in 11 games, 25 overall.

I think that is self explanatory, Messi was best pretty much in everything. Same pretty much applies to CL. So who do you think were better in those competitions? And don't say Cronaldo or Drogba. lol