Re: Roberto Baggio vs Lionel Messi

by kiranr Thu May 10, 2012 11:15 am

I could say the same thing you know.

Baggio greater than Messi. Only on this forum.

by Harmonica Thu May 10, 2012 11:40 am

Messi - Baggio

Club Titles

18 - 4

National Titles

2 - 0

Best Player Of The Year

3x winner, 2x top3 - 1x winner, 1x top3

Goals

252 - 278
22 - 27

Messi is better creator, he's is better goal scorer. And he's better in almost every field of footballing. Oh, did I also mention that he's currently 24 years old?

Can't believe I typed to this thread. Very Happy

by DuringTheWar Thu May 10, 2012 12:17 pm

Strong arguments could be made to counter almost all those points.

1. The volume of titles won is hardly a proof of how great a player is, or more importantly in your argument how great a player isnt
2. Both national titles messi has are small, i mean both those competitions had age limits for crying out loud. To date baggio has a superior intl record and performance
3. Under the old format which baggio played in messi would only have two ballon d'ors (this isnt even for debate it is a fact). An argument in baggios favour is there was much stronger competition for the ballon d'or in his time. Who does messis have to compete with? c.ronaldo, declining kaka, sneijder, xavi....
4. That suggests messi is a better goalscorer, it isnt proof either way who is a better player

For the record, messi will probably be a better player, but this comparison is valid for the time being. He deserves comparison with messi much more than c.ronaldo does

by Zealous Thu May 10, 2012 1:35 pm

Jiopsi only absorbs football through google.

by Doc Thu May 10, 2012 2:56 pm

First and foremost, it's a ridiculous argument to even be made. You're dealing with two legendary talents and the simpleton like debate of one is better than the other doesn't apply and is completely unfair to either player. Secondly, both talents are/were showcased in two very distinct and different eras of football. How Baggio played in the 80's and 90's doesn't necessarily mean he'll excel the same way in this era of football (and vice versa).

As I said much earlier, I'm not for or against which player is better however, this thread is definitely an indicator how ridiculous people's bias can be or how far posters would go to undermine a man's (Messi's and Baggio's) accomplishments.

by billionmillion Thu May 10, 2012 6:39 pm

Doc what you said is correct. thats why only way to compare players is titles and awards. and messi owns baggio here smoking

the man broke all records and won 3 world player award and 4th is in the way

its not because there are less talented players in this era. its because football changed now its - less tricks more tactics. in old times today's footballers would use ton of tricks, because football was slow - you had time and space to do tricks. now football is improved - people start to realize that tricks are useless and waste of time and space (if you want result)

Because of money football became a business. In business the result is the most important - today's footballers use the every best ways to beat opponent. after 50 years it will improve even more.

in old times football was a show+business now its only business (no time for show)

by huntsman Fri May 11, 2012 1:17 pm

You can stop a striker from scoring no matter how agile he is, no matter how fast he runs and no matter how good he dribbles and you can break any defense in the world no matter how intact it is, score wonderful goals against talented goal-keepers but you can never stop a genius no 10 from composing the play of a team. He will always find a way to beat you with his intelligence, he will spot the weakness in the flow of play of the opposition team. That is baggio, so simply yet so complicated in his play, so easy yet impossible to replicate his work on thie field.

Baggio happens once in a life time. Messi might be the linkinpark of the past 3 years, but Baggio is the Mozart of the past and upcoming ages.

by Ion Creanga Fri May 11, 2012 1:26 pm

huntsman, great video...

And naming someone "a lot better than baggio " (no matter who) is not only disrespectful, but proves that you are watching football from recent period and you never played football in your life..

by wiredfromback Fri May 11, 2012 1:29 pm

I grew up idolizing Roberto Baggio. However, Italy did lose once in open play when Baggio played in the WC. That was in USA 1994 when Italy lost their opening game to Ireland 1-0...Paul McGrath literally controlled Roberto Baggio.

That being said, Roberto Baggio is simply the most poetic footballer that I have seen. The only one who had better vision was probably Michael Laudrup, but he was more an "Engineer" than a "poet." Baggio made his fans believe in miracles (he did come immediately after injury while in Brescia when his national team dream was thought to be over and score a hat-trick; never played in the national team again, except for the Spain friendly where there were a couple of instances of his silky skills), and gave "hope."

Diego may have been a god and Messi a freak, a video game et al. but Baggio is the human poet/fantasista of the field (missing the 1994 penalty and then coming back in 1998 to score against Chile) capable of inciting profound (see, the key word is "profound") human emotions unlike just about any other footballer. In Asian countries and Italy, he is just about the most loved player ever.

And is there a better goal than the one Baggio scored against Juventus while in Brescia? It was a Pirlo long ball that Baggio caressed to beat the goalkeeper Van der Saar in one move and score.

by Divine Intervention Sat May 12, 2012 11:27 am

Baggio is arguably the greatest #10 and the best fantasista in Calcio history. Messi might be better at finishing, but Baggio's passing range and creativty are superior to anything Messi will ever do. What a shameful thread. These are the same people that sit here and spout Messi is better than Diego. Where was Messi in the 2 legs against chelsea? Where was MEssi in the classico against Madrid. 73 empty goals.

Please stop embarrasing yourselves and this forum by posting such delusions!

by Neutral Sat May 12, 2012 12:15 pm

Divine Intervention wrote:Baggio is arguably the greatest #10 and the best fantasista in Calcio history. Messi might be better at finishing, but Baggio's passing range and creativty are superior to anything Messi will ever do. What a shameful thread. These are the same people that sit here and spout Messi is better than Diego. Where was Messi in the 2 legs against chelsea? Where was MEssi in the classico against Madrid. 73 empty goals.

Please stop embarrasing yourselves and this forum by posting such delusions!

yeah true whatever messi has done in the past is irrelevant because a couple of games of under performing. baggio must have brought his a-game to every game when it mattered the most. that's why he has a amazing 4 major trophies in his whole career.

by Red Alert Sat May 12, 2012 1:30 pm

Divine Intervention wrote:Baggio is arguably the greatest #10 and the best fantasista in Calcio history. Messi might be better at finishing, but Baggio's passing range and creativty are superior to anything Messi will ever do. What a shameful thread. These are the same people that sit here and spout Messi is better than Diego. Where was Messi in the 2 legs against chelsea? Where was MEssi in the classico against Madrid. 73 empty goals.

Please stop embarrasing yourselves and this forum by posting such delusions!

How much games have you seen Baggio play in?

by Divine Intervention Sat May 12, 2012 1:33 pm

ynwa wrote:
Divine Intervention wrote:Baggio is arguably the greatest #10 and the best fantasista in Calcio history. Messi might be better at finishing, but Baggio's passing range and creativty are superior to anything Messi will ever do. What a shameful thread. These are the same people that sit here and spout Messi is better than Diego. Where was Messi in the 2 legs against chelsea? Where was MEssi in the classico against Madrid. 73 empty goals.

Please stop embarrasing yourselves and this forum by posting such delusions!

How much games have you seen Baggio play in?

End of his time in Fiorentina till the end of his career.

by kiranr Sat May 12, 2012 1:35 pm

Divine Intervention wrote:Baggio is arguably the greatest #10 and the best fantasista in Calcio history. Messi might be better at finishing, but Baggio's passing range and creativty are superior to anything Messi will ever do. What a shameful thread. These are the same people that sit here and spout Messi is better than Diego. Where was Messi in the 2 legs against chelsea? Where was MEssi in the classico against Madrid. 73 empty goals.

Please stop embarrasing yourselves and this forum by posting such delusions!

Another fan of an Italian club. Nothing new here.

by justdoit_ Sat May 12, 2012 2:28 pm

Divine Intervention wrote:What a shameful thread. These are the same people that sit here and spout Messi is better than Diego. Where was Messi in the 2 legs against chelsea? Where was MEssi in the classico against Madrid. 73 empty goals.

Please stop embarrasing yourselves and this forum by posting such delusions!

Bullshit, then where the f were Diego and Roberto every freakin' single year of their careers when neither came close to winning the Champions League title? Apply the same logic that you're currently applying to Messi and think about what the results would be. You're only awarded use of this piss poor argument because Messi is occurring here and now and you can nitpick every single thing that he does. I'm guessing that Diego and Roberto weren't putting in their best performances, elegantly dancing around the pitch past defenders with the ball at their feet, when they were getting knocked out of European competition every year but once (they both one Europa once). They had failures, trials, and tribulations just like everyone else, but time has, for some stupid reason, granted them immortality in the eyes of morons.

One post and I'm already pissed off and done with this ish.

by Divine Intervention Sat May 12, 2012 2:36 pm

justdoit_ wrote:
Divine Intervention wrote:What a shameful thread. These are the same people that sit here and spout Messi is better than Diego. Where was Messi in the 2 legs against chelsea? Where was MEssi in the classico against Madrid. 73 empty goals.

Please stop embarrasing yourselves and this forum by posting such delusions!
Bullshit, then where the f were Diego and Roberto every freakin' single year of their careers when neither came close to winning the Champions League title? Apply the same logic that you're currently applying to Messi and think about what the results would be. You're only awarded use of this piss poor argument because Messi is occurring here and now and you can nitpick every single thing that he does. I'm guessing that Diego and Roberto weren't putting in their best performances, elegantly dancing around the pitch past defenders with the ball at their feet, when they were getting knocked out of European competition every year but once (they both one Europa once). They had failures, trials, and tribulations just like everyone else, but time has, for some stupid reason, granted them immortality in the eyes of morons.

One post and I'm already pissed off and done with this ish.

Roberto Baggio vs Lionel Messi - Page 6 Tumblr_lm7jzrrxem1qjv48ho1_500

by alexjanosik Sat May 12, 2012 4:51 pm

justdoit_ wrote:
Divine Intervention wrote:What a shameful thread. These are the same people that sit here and spout Messi is better than Diego. Where was Messi in the 2 legs against chelsea? Where was MEssi in the classico against Madrid. 73 empty goals.

Please stop embarrasing yourselves and this forum by posting such delusions!
Bullshit, then where the f were Diego and Roberto every freakin' single year of their careers when neither came close to winning the Champions League title? Apply the same logic that you're currently applying to Messi and think about what the results would be. You're only awarded use of this piss poor argument because Messi is occurring here and now and you can nitpick every single thing that he does. I'm guessing that Diego and Roberto weren't putting in their best performances, elegantly dancing around the pitch past defenders with the ball at their feet, when they were getting knocked out of European competition every year but once (they both one Europa once). They had failures, trials, and tribulations just like everyone else, but time has, for some stupid reason, granted them immortality in the eyes of morons.

One post and I'm already pissed off and done with this ish.

Was about to post all the great European trophies that the great Maradona and Baggio won while putting in stellar performances but after your post no need for it.
Baggio was a journeyman and for all his supposed greatness doesnt have much to show for it.
Messi has been bringing his game every single game,week in week out year in year out and at a level that Baggio never reached.And he has performed far more on the big stages than Baggio ever did.

by DuringTheWar Sat May 12, 2012 5:38 pm

Unfortunately maradona didnt play in the champions league very often. If he hadnt turned napoli into champions of the most difficult league in the world he wouldnt have played in it at all during his career, as im sure everyone here is aware only league champions qualified for the champions league pre-90s. And of course, he played some of his best years in south america.

I wouldnt call baggio a journeyman. He spent nearly 10 years at italys 3 biggest clubs, he won serie a twice with 2 different teams, he won the ballon d'or, a journeyman is someone that spends their career in mediocrity. Sometimes the term is taken too literally

by huntsman Sat May 12, 2012 6:34 pm

Baggio played for 7 different teams excelled in all of them; he didnt count on his teams mates, they counted on him to win games. His legend is not defined by the titles won but by moments of genius.

Baggio performed at legendary levels in the NT despite the fact that he had missed that penalty back in 1994. Messi doesnt recover from a failure until he falls in another on an NT level, obviously when you dont have iniesta, xavi and fabregas, when you re not playing for the best team in football history (some say), then it's gonna be a little different and those runs and dribbles if they dont stem from a greater motive, and a quality thought, they wont carry you much.

Messi needs to work alot to put on some good NT performances, and maybe he can try and play for smaller clubs / other clubs and let's see how he ll perform. If he's a good player then we will get to see that, if not, then all those hattricks against Malaga, and getafe, and zaragoza and all those jokes of teams mean little to nothing.

by billionmillion Sat May 12, 2012 11:50 pm

lol baggio fanboys owned here Laughing

by juventus101 Sun May 13, 2012 1:47 am

Baggio fanboys owned? How so? By bringing up that Messi has more titles? Championships dont mean shit. A guy can be by far the best in the world but play for the worst team in the world, it doesnt make him any worse. Also, back then, only the winners of the league got into the CL and the level of competition was multiple times better than what it is now. And it just shows that you guys know nothing of Baggio when you call him a journeyman. I assume by journeyman you mean he just strolls thriugh his career not amounting to much? Thats a *bleep* insult to one of definitely, and in my opinion the best player to ever live. And whoever said that or agrees with that is a joke, and should just stop debating cuz you look like fools now. And im sorry, i dont want to sidetrack this thread, but Baggio shouldve had at the very least 3 Ballon Dors (shouldve had one o er Stoichkov and if he wasnt fighting through and injury and made that penalty he wouldve won over Romario too, among others), and Messi should only have two CL max (shouldve been knocked out by Chelsea in 08/09, and the Arsenal game in 09/10 Barca also got a lot of help from the ref), and shouod also only have two Ballon Dors (Sneijder shouldve won it in 09, no doubt about it).

by billionmillion Sun May 13, 2012 7:38 am

maybe 2 ballon dors but messi still would have 3 World player awards. Why national team coaches and captains didnt vote for baggio if he was so great? if he took his team to the final?

messi didnt even get into WC semi-final , didnt win CL but still people voted for him. because they think he is better than baggio smoking

I agree Championships doesnt mean a shit (but only for messi). Messi can be the best player without titles but Baggio cant.......without titles Messi voted 2nd best player in 2007, the best player in 2010

by alexjanosik Sun May 13, 2012 9:08 am

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:Unfortunately maradona didnt play in the champions league very often. If he hadnt turned napoli into champions of the most difficult league in the world he wouldnt have played in it at all during his career, as im sure everyone here is aware only league champions qualified for the champions league pre-90s. And of course, he played some of his best years in south america.

I wouldnt call baggio a journeyman. He spent nearly 10 years at italys 3 biggest clubs, he won serie a twice with 2 different teams, he won the ballon d'or, a journeyman is someone that spends their career in mediocrity. Sometimes the term is taken too literally

You can give all the excuses you want.Botttom line is Maradona played in the European Cup and he flopped.He couldnt do the job and he was a big game flop.
Same as Baggio.Guy played in all the biggest teams in Italy and all he has is 2 leagues to show for it.Not even a CL and yet supposedly he is the GOAT.
Classic example of a journeyman and 'Big fish in small pond.'
Messi is the biggest fish in the biggest pond there is.World of a difference.
Messi is in a different league by any criteria.

by _LMG_10_ Mon May 14, 2012 4:02 am

juventus101 wrote:Baggio fanboys owned? How so? By bringing up that Messi has more titles? Championships dont mean shit. A guy can be by far the best in the world but play for the worst team in the world, it doesnt make him any worse. Also, back then, only the winners of the league got into the CL and the level of competition was multiple times better than what it is now. And it just shows that you guys know nothing of Baggio when you call him a journeyman. I assume by journeyman you mean he just strolls thriugh his career not amounting to much? Thats a *bleep* insult to one of definitely, and in my opinion the best player to ever live. And whoever said that or agrees with that is a joke, and should just stop debating cuz you look like fools now. And im sorry, i dont want to sidetrack this thread, but Baggio shouldve had at the very least 3 Ballon Dors (shouldve had one o er Stoichkov and if he wasnt fighting through and injury and made that penalty he wouldve won over Romario too, among others), and Messi should only have two CL max (shouldve been knocked out by Chelsea in 08/09, and the Arsenal game in 09/10 Barca also got a lot of help from the ref), and shouod also only have two Ballon Dors (Sneijder shouldve won it in 09, no doubt about it).

The fact that you're nitpicking through Messi's accomplishments shows how weak your argument is.

by DuringTheWar Mon May 14, 2012 3:58 pm

alexjanosik wrote:

You can give all the excuses you want.Botttom line is Maradona played in the European Cup and he flopped.He couldnt do the job and he was a big game flop.

Big game flop? messi has flopped in the champions league (2010, 2012) at least the same amount of times maradona participated in the old european cup. You know how many games maradona played in the european cup? 7 games. Thats your foundation for calling maradona a big game flop?
:lol!:

I get why you rate messi so much, hes going to be an all time great. But i dont get the need to trash other players careers in your effort to defend him. Some of your critisisms are just petty

by juve_gigi Tue May 15, 2012 12:30 am

The funniest part of this thread is that most posters who discredit Baggio completely and laugh never even watched him play. You only have seen his youtube videos, lmao!!!

I've watched ALL the great players and Maradona is the greatest player, hands down. He won a World Cup by himself and he led an average Napoli team to two scudetti all by himself.

As for Messi versus Baggio, I would rate Messi higher for overall skill and ability, but Baggio is actually real close. He is my favourite player of all time and I watched him closely throughout his career. But Messi cannot compare to Maradona. Messi needs to win a world cup beforre he can be compared to the great Maradona. Messi has won lots of trophies yes, but he has done that with a great team behind him. He has done nothing with a great Argentina squad, and now that Barcelona has been beaten, he may not accomplish as much in the future as he has accomplished already in the past. Time will tell. But with Messi it is just too early, as he is still only in his mid 20's. We need another 10 years or so before we can determine Messi's final chapter and how he ranks among the greatest players. But he still has time to pass Maradona in terms of greatness, so we will see what happens.

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