The Duel: Roberto Baggio vs Johan Cruyff

Both are among the elite, best players of all time. Who was better?

Right Back section thanks.

Anyway, Cruyff is probably in the three greatest ever footballers in the world if not the greatest. Baggie is probably not even in top 10.

The Sanchez wrote:Right Back section thanks.

Anyway, Cruyff is probably in the three greatest ever footballers in the world if not the greatest. Baggie is probably not even in top 10.

ranking is meh thing.
That said Cruyff was better.

I disagree that Cruyff is even Top 5, and i highly disagree that Baggio isnt Top 10.

See my comment from your other thread.

juventus101 wrote:I disagree that Cruyff is even Top 5, and i highly disagree that Baggio isnt Top 10.

wtf. What the hell have you been watching for the past few years. Cruyff is easily Top 3. Who is better?

Cruyff

juventus101 wrote:I disagree that Cruyff is even Top 5, and i highly disagree that Baggio isnt Top 10.

Cruyff is an ultimate footballer, to say he is not among the elites is a big load of BS. Baggio was great and had a beautiful style of play(one of the major reason why he is grossly overrated nowadays) but he should not be compared to Cruyff as he will flatter vs Cruyff.

I never said Cruyff isnt among the elites. I said he isnt Top 3, who i consider to be Garrincha, Maradona, and Baggio. I also consider Pele and Beckenbauer (who would round out the Top 5) above him. Cruyff is on the same level as Maldini, Zidane, Muller, Messi, Scirea, Platini, etc.Cruyff is definitely elite and definitely top 10, but better than Baggio he is not.

And Baggio overrated? What a joke. Hes the most underrsted legend. If he had won the World Cup in 94 he wouldve been untouchable in my opinion. He was a god. I also watched him throughout almost his entire career.

I was a big big fan of Baggio in 1994, but I must say that he's not on my top 10 list today. He is on my top 100 worldwide and my top 5 of italian players, I would say.
Cruyff on the other hand is on my top 10 worldwide, not top 3. Messi, Maradona, Pele make my top 3.

it's unfair to compare Bagio with Cruyff.
Bagio was a beast but Cruyff was on another level.
To be honest only a very few players could be compared to the Dutch genius

juventus101 wrote:I never said Cruyff isnt among the elites. I said he isnt Top 3, who i consider to be Garrincha, Maradona, and Baggio. I also consider Pele and Beckenbauer (who would round out the Top 5) above him. Cruyff is on the same level as Maldini, Zidane, Muller, Messi, Scirea, Platini, etc.Cruyff is definitely elite and definitely top 10, but better than Baggio he is not.

And Baggio overrated? What a joke. Hes the most underrsted legend. If he had won the World Cup in 94 he wouldve been untouchable in my opinion. He was a god. I also watched him throughout almost his entire career.

the thing with Baggio is "if", if coaches were nice to Baggio we would have forgetten Maradona, if Baggio was not made of glass he would ruled the world, if Baggio had stayed at one club Pele would have been vanished, if Baggio did not missed that pk he would have been the greatest player of all time, if Baggio had a couple of glorious tits and a tight cuñt he would have been a woman. The thing is he had talent but never lived up to it at any stage. Whether it was due to his physical fragility or disputes with coaches or inconsistency. He was great footballer and we would appreciate it but to suggest that he is among the greatest legends is overrating him. He was a hero and one of the best of a generation(I am very big fan too) but not an all time elite legendary figure as some try to make him.
Cruyff on the other hand revolutionzed football being the main figure which allowed Dutch to successfully implant their total football theory, a footballer with immense talent and peerless tactical mastery who won everything big to be won at club level and had a far better World Cup than Baggio in 1994.

And also what makes think that Garrincha was better than Pele.

Oh we're playing IF games? Okay then...

IF Maradona had stayed off cocaine he would have been twice the player he was and at the peak longer

IF Ronaldo had not gotten injured he might have surpassed Pele

IF England didn't get awarded an offside goal in 1966 WC final

You get my point. Football isn't about ifs, it's about what happened. We can't judge past events based solely on potential, they had to fulfill it.

I know that. I was just stating one "if". I know it doesnt matter, bit it should still be said.

And Baggio is only one of the best of his generation? Hes well known to italians as the best italian player of all time. He carried that 94 Italy team to the final and lost on PKs to an excellent Brazil side, when he was fighting through injury the entire time. He never once allowed Italy to be eliminated from.the WC in regular play. Only PKs, which he cant control. He is an all time legendary figure, theres absolutely no doubting that in my mind. Hes among the Top 5 of all time for sure in my opinion.

And i was talking to an older friend of mine whose Brazilian and eatched Pele and Garrincha throughout their careers, And he told me that Pele got the goals so he got the credit, but Garrincha was the creator of alot of them and the better overall player.

juventus101 wrote:I know that. I was just stating one "if". I know it doesnt matter, bit it should still be said.

And Baggio is only one of the best of his generation? Hes well known to italians as the best italian player of all time. He carried that 94 Italy team to the final and lost on PKs to an excellent Brazil side, when he was fighting through injury the entire time. He never once allowed Italy to be eliminated from.the WC in regular play. Only PKs, which he cant control. He is an all time legendary figure, theres absolutely no doubting that in my mind. Hes among the Top 5 of all time for sure in my opinion.

see it is not like only Baggio did a great job in that world cup, Romario did an exact job with Brazil who had a strong defense(same with Italy) but without Romario their attack looked was damp and unlike Baggio, Romario was an constant threat to the defenders, well Baggio was not fully fit, understandable why he was not much involved in the game for Italy, though his goals were important. And yes Baggio's goals were vital, but it is not like he was the only who had a great tournament, that tournament had had some great performances from Hagi, Brolin, Stoichkov, Baresi(even if he dint played much, but that final we saw a masterclass defending), Maldini. And lets not forget that it not been for Dino Baggio's goal vs Norway, Italy may not have even reached knockouts. Baggio had a decisive world cup, but it is not like he was all about it.
Baggio is a great player, may even be the greatest attacker Italy ever produced but top 5 of all time? Well i dont consider, but ranking are personal thing and I think arguing about it is useful.

And i was talking to an older friend of mine whose Brazilian and eatched Pele and Garrincha throughout their careers, And he told me that Pele got the goals so he got the credit, but Garrincha was the creator of alot of them and the better overall player.

that is an ignorant info bro, I doubt your friend watched Brazil at all and the thing which you said is a media myth created by Europeans. For instant, Pele and Garrincha despite playing in the same team did not got involved much and were not partners, Garrincha's partner was Vava and Pele was the link up guy, with Zagolla and Didi being his creators, feeders, so this Garrincha creating his goals is a total bs. Pele was a better player than Garrincha, more consistent over the year, was not as selfish as Garrincha a far better team player and many things. Garrincha was an freak of a nature, a sensational dribbler and a player who could create something out of nothing and was great in two world cups(one were he took the center stage after Pele was injured) but better than Pele? No. Although he is among the greatest evers and would easily be in most top 10s.

Yes, Stoichkov, Hagi, Romario, etc all had great World Cups, but Baggio was well known in that time to be the best player in the World Cup. He didnt win the Ballon Dor in 94 which is a crime, but i watched the 94 World Cup live and Baggio was the best player in the world at thattime bar none. Even with.an injury, he put in masterclasses. And to say of he dodnt sxore he didnt have an impact is ridiculous. Baggio used to play very deep to get the ball, spread passes around, and dribble. The original trequartista. And i think hes defi.itely Top 5, but as you said thats all opinion. To claim hes not an all time great though is stupid.

And my friend is from Brazil, and is old enough to say he watched Pele and Garrincha. I highly doubt you did. And i.brought up Pele, and he brought up Garrincha, so i didnt bring Garrincha up. He watched those guys live. Youre basing your argument on what, youtube?

juventus101 wrote:Yes, Stoichkov, Hagi, Romario, etc all had great World Cups, but Baggio was well known in that time to be the best player in the World Cup.

maybe in Italy but in other parts of this big earth people do remember certain Romario, who quite clearly the most dominant individual of that world cup.

He didnt win the Ballon Dor in 94 which is a crime, but i watched the 94 World Cup live and Baggio was the best player in the world at thattime bar none.

even I watched 94 live but I dont mention it 10times. Stoichkov had a great season prior to the world cup with Barcelona where he and Romario created a great partnership and was very good at the world cup too, so him winning the Ballon Dor was not criminal and Romario would have won it anyways if Ballon Dor's rules were like today.
Baggio was great but lets not make it had Messi like dominance over other individuals of that era.

Even with.an injury, he put in masterclasses. And to say of he dodnt sxore he didnt have an impact is ridiculous.
Baggio used to play very deep to get the ball, spread passes around, and dribble. The original trequartista.

reading problems? I said he was decisive with his goals but was not as dominant as Romario.

And i think hes defi.itely Top 5, but as you said thats all opinion. To claim hes not an all time great though is stupid.

I doubt I said he was not an all time great, but I said he was a level below the elites like Crujff, Di Stefano, Platini and Beckenbauer.

And my friend is from Brazil, and is old enough to say he watched Pele and Garrincha. I highly doubt you did. And i.brought up Pele, and he brought up Garrincha, so i didnt bring Garrincha up. He watched those guys live. Youre basing your argument on what, youtube?

your friend must be around 60s now good to have chat with oldies but he is wrong about this one.
As for our arguement, I rarely surf youtube, i would rather surf porn than footy videos which is mostly one-sided complication of players by fanbois.
Pele and Garrincha were part of different system in that team. That team merged two system the long ball of Botafogo(Didi, Garrincha, Vava) and the short passing, one-twos of Santos(Pele), Didi was the key here and as he merged these system or styles into perfection. Garrincha's game was simple he would recieve the ball on right and than dribble past his marker and whip in a cross to Vava or take a shot, it was later in the 1962 world cup where he emerged the leader doing great things like scoring headers, free kicks etc and as we know with English media who always have a dirty infactuation with wingers started saying he was better than Pele.
Garrincha was not much involved in the game of Pele, so the thing about him creating Pele's goals is false. They were not partners.

Im not saying Baggio was dominant, but he was well kbown back then, not only to italians, to be the #1. Stoichkov and Romario were amazing, bit Baggio was better. And i disagree that Di Stefano, Platini, etc were above Baggio. Baggio is ampng the Top 5 of all time for sure in my opinion, but again, its really all opinion. But to say Romario was better than.Baggio in the WC is ridiculous. Baggio scored one less goal than Rrio but was far more influential as a team player. Baggio shouldve won the Ballon Dor at least 2-3 times in my opinion not only once.

Im not even going to debate this with yu about Pele and Garrincha. You did not watch them live. You cant argue with someone that did, based on videos of however your basing your argument. Simple as that.

juventus101 wrote:Im not saying Baggio was dominant, but he was well kbown back then, not only to italians, to be the #1.

ofcourse he was well known, he was a great player and sported a sexy hairstyle, one of my buddy also copied it. We had a huge poster of him in our group room too. But that does not mean he was the absolute best player of the world. It was never that all.

Stoichkov and Romario were amazing, bit Baggio was better.

that season that was not the case. Both Stoichkov and Romario had great club season winning the Liga and losing the CL to a great Milan team. And at World cup they were great as well. So it was not obvious as you try to make it.

And i disagree that Di Stefano, Platini, etc were above Baggio. Baggio is ampng the Top 5 of all time for sure in my opinion, but again, its really all opinion.

your opinion but the truth is always gonna be different.

But to say Romario was better than.Baggio in the WC is ridiculous. Baggio scored one less goal than Rrio but was far more influential as a team player.

lol please dude, you say you watched the world cup and come with this arrogant opinion.
Romario was great at the group stage, scoring in all 3 games, gave 1 assist to Bebeto and scoring by himself against Sweden. in the first match(Russia), he scored 1 goal and produced a penalty by himself too, when rai scored. against USA, he created Bebeto´s goal with an incisive assist against the Dutch, and in the kockouts again he the player who constantly threated the defenders. And all games he was amazing, like Baggio the attacking vibe of Brazil. Even in the final he was the only Brazilian who was threating the Italian defense, but that defense was well we know Baresi.
And he too like Baggio played in a defensive team with midfielders like Mazinho, Zinho, Dunga and Mauro Silva, none known for their creativity. That Brazil is the worst Brazil to win a world cup without doubt, I mean among Brazilian WC winning squads. They did had a strong tactical approach but without Romario would not have reached far, so to say he was not infleuntial to the team is ignorant.

Baggio shouldve won the Ballon Dor at least 2-3 times in my opinion not only once.

well maybe but he did not did anything noteworthy to be awarded 2-3 Ballon Dors as there always players who performed better than him.

Im not even going to debate this with yu about Pele and Garrincha. You did not watch them live. You cant argue with someone that did, based on videos of however your basing your argument. Simple as that.

you cannot argue because you have no clue about that Brazilian team, ask any knowledgable Brazilian and all will say Pele and Garrincha were not partners.

Sisted a few. But Baggio was the cwYou go ask a knowledgeable Brazilian. Cuz i have. And he told me that Garrincha was better. Youre speaking out of your ass. Youre trying to tell you know more than someone who is Brazilian and lived in.Brazil at that time and watched them live, based on what? Youre basing youre opinions on what?

And i think its you that didnt watch the World Cup. You realize that while Romario was great with the ball and could create chances himself, Baggio was much more than that. He would drop into midfield and literally become their entire attack. Youre right that Romario didnt have thd best Brazil team.behind him, but it was better than Italys in attack. Baggio was a trequartista, aka someone who plays in the hole between midfield and attack. Romario created a few of his own goals himself and assisted a few too. But for Italy, Baggio was the center of EVERYTHING when it comes to attacking. And he still only scored one less goal than Romario.

There was no one that performed better than Baggio between 92-94. No one. Its not even arguable in my opinion. Its even arguable that he was still the best later on in the 90s. And this was during one of the best generations ever for soccer.

And why is Baggio not among the best ever in "truth"? Oh, cuz youre the judge of that right? Gimme a break.

juventus101 wrote:Sisted a few. But Baggio was the cwYou go ask a knowledgeable Brazilian. Cuz i have. And he told me that Garrincha was better. Youre speaking out of your ass. Youre trying to tell you know more than someone who is Brazilian and lived in.Brazil at that time and watched them live, based on what? Youre basing youre opinions on what?

being Brazilian and living in Brazil, watching a game live does not mean someone knows better. And love how you change your words: "from created most of his goals to assisted few". And Pele also scored hundereds of goals in club football too, and he did not needed Garrincha. Pele also won 1970 World cup being the lynchpin of the team, he did not needed Garrincha. Even when they played together he did not needed Garrincha for his goals. Ofcourse Brazil needed Garrincha but Pele did not needed him for his goals.

And i think its you that didnt watch the World Cup. You realize that while Romario was great with the ball and could create chances himself, Baggio was much more than that. He would drop into midfield and literally become their entire attack. Youre right that Romario didnt have thd best Brazil team.behind him, but it was better than Italys in attack. Baggio was a trequartista, aka someone who plays in the hole between midfield and attack. Romario created a few of his own goals himself and assisted a few too. But for Italy, Baggio was the center of EVERYTHING when it comes to attacking. And he still only scored one less goal than Romario.

both scored same amount of goals. Baggio was not that all during group stages, he was even subbed in second game if I remember well. Baggio picked up by second round when scored that et goal vs Nigeria before that he did meh. You are sounding like a broken record now, Baggio was great, he was everything etc etc. He was vital and by far the most important Italian attacker but that does not mean he had a better tournament than Romario who performed in all games and was as vital to Brazilians as was Baggio to Italians, although Italy came out of the group strugglingly inspite of Baggio doing nothing significant. I know Baggio is a fab among Serie A and Azzuri fans but lets not overrate his performances.

There was no one that performed better than Baggio between 92-94. No one. Its not even arguable in my opinion. Its even arguable that he was still the best later on in the 90s. And this was during one of the best generations ever for soccer.

lol, so in your opinion if it is not arguable than it is the ultimate truth? I have a nephew who thinks Ronaldinho is the best ever footballer, so does that mean he is right? Opinions and facts are different things. Roberto Baggio was never the ultimate best in the world and he did not achieved much during that period either.

And why is Baggio not among the best ever in "truth"? Oh, cuz youre the judge of that right? Gimme a break.

no I am not a judge nor are you. Talent and acheivement are the decider for me. Le Tiss for example is possibly one of the best ever English player on talent but when it comes to actual acheivement and performances he flatters, reasons maybe anything but if you did not made it, you did not made it. For me to be among best ever you need to achieve big and perform consistently at high level, Baggio had immense talent but he was a fragile character, he did had his moments but never acheived big.
Compare it to players like Maradona, Platini, Pele, Cruyff, Ronaldo, Zidane, Di Stefano, Maldini, Beckenbauer, Garrincha, Messi, Van Basten etc etc. who were performing great and winning big in their times at an consistent level. Baggio is no doubt a great player, one of the best in his position but he is not among the elites atleast for me. You can have him anywhere in your list but that does not change the fact that his achievements look meek compared to other greats.

I didnt change my argument so.i dpnt know what youre talking about there.

You still didnt answer my question of what youre basing your argument on when it comes to Pele and Garrincha. Please let me know how you know more than someone who watched them live. Im not saying watching them live makes someone the expert, but theyre certsinly much more credible than you, considering i believe your argument is based on youtube.

Baggio was subbed off in the group stages because he was fighting throigh an injury throughput the entire 94 World Cup. He performed in every match. As i sajd before, EVERYTHING attacking that Italy did, went through Baggio. And he still scored just as many goals as Romario (thought he scored one less, oh well). Romario was like Ronaldo for Real Madrid. A decent amount went through him and he scored the crucial goals, but Baggio was like Pirlo for Juve and Messiot Barcelona in one (not saying hes as good as both put together). EVERYTHING went through Baggio.

And he was the ultimate footballer in my opinion. One of thr Top 5 of all time for sure, and the absokutely best without question in my opinion from 92-94, and among the best in the early 90s and late 90s, in a time where the competition was one of the best its ever been.

I sound like a broken record because you dont seem to understand. I never act like im the hudge, hence why i always use proof, such as a friend of mine who watched Pele and Garrincha live, and for things that are strictly opinion, such as "Baggio is the best ever" or whatnot, i always say "in my opinion" afterwards. But youve been trying to tell me that Baggio is not among the best ever just because you say so, ans youre trying to tell me that my friend is wrong, with nothing backing up your claims.

I'm with you CrazyBoy.

@ juventus1: you has gone too far, IMHO. Although I respect your own opinion, but I think it's already a similar kind of catholic belief.

That's: One or two experts could be wrong about Baggio but the whole football world could not be wrong. He did not receive a Ballon d'Or or something like that means that he was not good enough for most football experts.

So, no proof or evidence is needed to tell about his position in the olympus of great football players.

Baggio did win the Ballon Dor and World Player of the Year in 93. Hes also well known to be the best italian player of all time. To claim hes not amongst the best of all time is asinine. He is by experts actually usually put in the Top 20 of all timw actually, i just beliece hes even better than that. And this forum is not the world. No offense to the smart people here, but most people here are either stupid fanboys or have only been watching football for a few years and shouldnt be commenting on players they havent watched. And youtube is not a good judge of a player.

@juventus1: Oh, I'm sorry that I forgot the year 1993. Ok it's one year.
And yes, here's only a small forum BUT I don't make my own opinion about Baggio AGAINST the whole world, since like most others, I don't think he is on the top 10 or higher.
Moreover, I don't think that my opinion make any sense to the experts or could change anything. I know that I'm only a football fan.
Perhaps, that is the difference between us.