Uefa Coefficients aside, should Serie A be handed back it's 4th spot?

rwo power wrote:

Forza Rossoneri wrote:It's not really cheating, it's reality. Italian teams have been prioritising Serie A over EL. Teams buy the players that win the games that make them the most money. Economically speaking, winning a league game is more important than winning a EL game. You can't completely blame the teams for not showing commitment to the EL when they need to focus on balancing their books as well.

Strangely enough the Bundesliga teams managed to balance their books and still be competitive in the EL. So that argument doesn't sound 100% valid to me.

Simple. Far better infrastructure, organisation and economic situation in Germany. It's miraculous that there are so many quality teams in Serie A with all those problems in Italy.

Forza Rossoneri wrote:

rwo power wrote:

Forza Rossoneri wrote:It's not really cheating, it's reality. Italian teams have been prioritising Serie A over EL. Teams buy the players that win the games that make them the most money. Economically speaking, winning a league game is more important than winning a EL game. You can't completely blame the teams for not showing commitment to the EL when they need to focus on balancing their books as well.

Strangely enough the Bundesliga teams managed to balance their books and still be competitive in the EL. So that argument doesn't sound 100% valid to me.

Simple. Far better infrastructure, organisation and economic situation in Germany. It's miraculous that there are so many quality teams in Serie A with all those problems in Italy.

TV money

Cmon guys dont fight you both deserve 4 spots

Take a spot away from one of those useless countries that contribute nothing other than getting destroyed in the group stages every year.

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:Cmon guys dont fight you both deserve 4 spots

Take a spot away from one of those useless countries that contribute nothing other than getting destroyed in the group stages every year.

So true... but what about APOEL?

The solution that Mole's supporting is one I agree with, however the format shouldn't detract from their ability to win the same number of spots as they enjoy, but teams who are going to perform like Zagreb need to be better tested by abolishing the split route between Champions and Non-Champions. If APOEL can top their group, they should be able to make their way through a slightly harder qualification path which is equal for all potential candidates.

The fight shouldn't be made harder for teams from the smaller nations, however the term "Champions" is by now so barely integral to the quality of the competition that the provision made for it when filling the final spots makes little sense in my mind. Realistically, teams who could have had fairytale runs are no doubt prevented due from doing so due to knockout format of the qualification stage, whilst it is only the round robin group which allows APOEL to arise to the top of a group and others who may be unsuited to the competition may trickle through the gaps.

Even then, a team from Spain such as Villarreal just went through the group stage without gaining a single point. Does it reflect on La Liga? Not in any deep fashion in my eyes, it simply reflects the cruel and strange nature of the competition. Hypothetical sympathy can be extended both ways, either condemning the condescending nature of the English, Spanish, German and Italian fans who think that they could probably send six teams into battle to improve the competition, and the Champions of "smaller" nations who should have a right to compete over teams who finished fourth in richer, more fashionable leagues.

Personally I'd extent the opportunity to field four teams even further, to Ligue 1, however give other leagues every opportunity to snatch those spots in qualification.

Apoel get a spot every year no matter where they finish in the league

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:Apoel get a spot every year no matter where they finish in the league

Goes without saying when you win the CL every year.

so basically the reasons for serie a being handed a cl spot are
a) they won a bunch of cups a few decades ago
b) they don't care about uefa cup to rack up the coefficient points



bundesliga teams won their spots fair and square, why should they be punished for italians not being able to get their shit together?

Just a thought, if EL knock-out games are the same worth in co efficent points as CL games then teams like Manchester United and City dropping out of the group stage must be a great way to get a lot of points against lower competition. Italy should try that for a few years.

Italy have won 3 CL since 2003 and 1 finalist

I personally think its BS that how a countries teams perform in Europa League effect how many spots there are in the CL.

I think the rankings should be seperate, how teams perform in the CL effects how many spots they have and vice versa for the EL.

Having said that Italy knows how it works and should have got thier shit together a long time ago.

aunshi wrote:Just a thought, if EL knock-out games are the same worth in co efficent points as CL games then teams like Manchester United and City dropping out of the group stage must be a great way to get a lot of points against lower competition. Italy should try that for a few years.

But they aren't. How is this myth still being perpetuated? EL knockout matches count something, but they count a lot less than UCL matches.

VivaStPauli wrote:

aunshi wrote:Just a thought, if EL knock-out games are the same worth in co efficent points as CL games then teams like Manchester United and City dropping out of the group stage must be a great way to get a lot of points against lower competition. Italy should try that for a few years.

But they aren't. How is this myth still being perpetuated? EL knockout matches count something, but they count a lot less than UCL matches.

Damn me and my easily falling for myths.

Do you have the figures for how much the games are worth?

It's a bit confusing, but all the info is in the Wikipedia article.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_coefficient

EL doesnt have as much as coefficient points CL have.

So thats one more point against............

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:Italy have won 3 CL since 2003 and 1 finalist

that's nice and all, but look at how the entire league actually performed

2003/04 - one team in quarter final, dumped out
2004/05 - three teams in quarter final, two knocked out, one in the final
2005/06 - thee teams in quarter final, two knocked out, one in semi final, knocked out
2006/07 - two teams in quarter final, one knocked out, one won
2007/08 - one team in quarter final, knocked out
2008/09 - no teams in quarter final
2009/10 - one team in quarter final, won
2010/11 - one team in quarter final, knocked out

so yeah, in the last 4 years no more than 1 italian team ever made it past the first knockout round, and you have the balls to ask for an extra cl spot?

put it another way, since 2007 the grand total of italian teams to pass a cl quarter final is one

VivaStPauli wrote:It's a bit confusing, but all the info is in the Wikipedia article.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_coefficient

Much obliged *tips hat*

Yh and like Germany and Spain have anymore teams qualifying on average each year

Especially when you consider Madrid didnt qualify for more than half a decade

Yeah another barca carries spain myth

Madrid finished first in group more than any team in 10 years or so..

even if we dont count last years Madrids coefficients,they are still above ANY ITALIAN TEAM

so? germany and spain did well in uefa cup, i don't see why sucking in two competitions is preferable to sucking in one

I think the coefficient system is well done, because the other way is for it to become a dick measuring contest.

A CL, EL specific ranking could work, but then how would the usual EL clubs climb up the ladder to the CL qualifiers?

che wrote:so? germany and spain did well in uefa cup, i don't see why sucking in two competitions is preferable to sucking in one

Ofcourse but thats where my point that doing well in EL shouldnt equate to more spots for CL.....

Ofcourse Italy should have realised that a long time ago and got thier shit together but the point remains i thing the system is fundamentally flawed.

McLewis wrote:Our "top" teams got routinely trounced just about every season leading up to the loss of the 4th place.

If Serie A want that spot back, they have to earn it like the Germans did. I see nothing wrong with 3 spots right now.

This post nails it.

It's a fair system. It's not "unfair" that Serie A got relegated from third spot to fourth, it's what they deserve. This is not a matter of opinion on who deserves it more.

3 CL spot is the reason why Serie A has been terrific this year

That's just the thing though....we could do well this season and then completely bottle it next season. There's no consistency within Italian teams in the CL and until that changes, they deserve to keep those 3 spots.

This entitlement mentality based on the glorified past not only hinders Serie A reputation, but it equally hinders its progression and development as a league.

why not have a play-off.fourth in Serie A vs fourth in Bundesliga,winner goes into the last qualifying round? the same dubious co-efficient system has seen Russia and Portugal chop and change as the 6th ranked league for years now.