Can Bilbao make Madrid lose points on Sunday?

buddytaller wrote:

The Franchise wrote:Santi Carzorla, Arda Turan, Filipe, would all start without a doubt.

Diego, Del Moral, Adrián López, Perotti, Medel, Javi Varas, Godin, Jesus Navas, Reyes, Isco, Toulalan and Monreal all have a legit shot.

The only Bilbao players who are 100% starters are Javi Martinez, Iraola LLorente, maybe Muniain and at quite a reach Ander.

None of the names you mentioned with the exception of Carzola are better than their counterparts at Athletic, like I said Athletic have a fantastic bunch of extremely gifted players who are a lot better than Sevilla, Malaga and Atletico's journeymen. Top 4 finish should be their least target this season.

Yeah...they are.

As I said, 4 at most Bilbao players would keep their place...its possible only 2 to be real honest.

Arda, Filipe, Navas, Isco and Toulalan are journyman lol

@rag, I love Ander, but there is no assurances he would start if we combined all these teams to make an 11.

I think in that group, Ander has the most unique skillset. I mean, if we are not going pound for pound because he can still be a little inconsistent, he is one of those few classic n10 guys who doesnt play behind the strikers, but still higher than the traditional CM. Parejo was supposed to be up there, but he is slacking.

Agree.

But none the less, Bilbao have nothing like the 3rd or 4th best squad in La Liga.

I think even good ole Arq might admit that.

You don't need to have the best squad to have the best team.They have a very ostensible philosophy behind them....something that should give them consistency.......none of those other teams have that.

Yes, but you need to think about the original point.

Which was, they have the 3rd or 4th best squad therfore they should finish at least 4th.

Which to me, if very false.

Rag it sounds to me like you haven't seen Atletico in the Simeone era (past 3 games). All 3 games were clean sheets, a goal-less draw, and two wins by 4 and 3 goals. Falcao on fire. It's too early to call him a success (given the quality he's been up against) but he seems to have given the team more of an edge.

True, not a success yet, but at the start of the season I tipped him as top scorer (aside from Cristiano and Messi) and I think he is very much in for a chance at that.

He is an excellent finisher with a surprising turn of quickness.

They look much better defensively now, they are dealing with teams mounting some sustained pressure which they wasnt doing before.

OT: People don't understand the concept behind some of the Spaniards thought process on one individual of a certain province can support his provincial rival when it comes to the overall progress and good of the province's philosophy and history. Examples are the great Asturians with their Gijon-Oviedo rivalry yet some of them support each other when on a large stage or against an important team. Some of the Catalans on how they will support Catalan football as a whole and disregard their respective rivalries based on the progress on the larger scale for the provinces' own football. And of course the Basque, as some of us, including I, support the Basque ideology and football as a whole rather then be stuck on its rivalry. Don't get me wrong, when it comes to these teams facing each other there is a massive rivalry, but many and I mean many of us spaniards simply do not admit that we want our own provinces teams to succeed on the larger scale simply for the progress of our football, our philosophy.

I wouldn't be surprised if people didn't know that the rivalry between Basque teams was actually deliberate by a large group of movers and shakers. Most of us know that.

It was purposely done so simply because the rivalry keeps us on our toes, to stay sharp, competitive and keep on improving until we reach the top. Rival team supporter rarely (some do) admit their support for their rivals when on a grander scale and against a grander opponent. Yet the desire is there. The rival fans coax and insult the rival team when on that stage as to almost hide their inner support, but it exists. This is not only proven among us Euskadi, but amongst most of the large provinces with their own football. Castilla is an exception.

This is the winning mentality of us as our rivalry among our teams only makes us stronger as there is an intrinsic sense of respect and bond that the Basque teams must know that that it is their duty to create platform upon platform for our ideology, philosophy and our football so that they can progress.

We are the strongest nation overall in Espana for reasons I can go on about. The Euskadi are god damn winners.

Bielsa must be given time as Bilbao is also known to be impatient and stubborn as this was the cause of their recent downfall.

This passage above with provide some insight to some of the inner workings of Basque football. Its from my Basque country thread.


OT: Whats this? Bielsa overrated? Followed by no proof at all to back it up? Bielsa is one of the few managers today who actually likes a challenge and has a ground philosophy which in actuality has been revered by Top managers, journalists and pundits alike. No one can doubt his genius. I mean there is a reason why Nick (who is the best Madrid fan in terms of knowledge) and Dani who is like the Trappiatoni of the forums, worship him

But... where he fails is how much he pays TOO much attention to detail along with his perfectionism. So basically, his quality is also his downfall. Example is how I already stated dozens of times how he has already found one of the better working and consistent systems that work for Bilbao. Which ones? The 4-2-3-1, the high pressing 4-2-2-2 and the occasional 4-3-1-2 similar to Allegri's silk n' steel system. But his constant changing of formations, along with the use of the dreaded 3-5-2 which creates chances but leaves them open in midfield along with defense is quite frustrating for the rojiblancos here. Llorente, who was thriving in his false 9 deep role earlier in the season, is now once again pushed to the target man position which he does not like along with it wasting his other qualities. Injuries to him did not help. He has changed the formation far too many times this season as this is a similar case to Dalglish where Liverpool fans argue his original system and formation was already superb. If not for these mistakes by Bielsa you would have seen them in the top 4 right now.

For now, he has to revert back to the best formation and simply tweak the innards of it without his usual and somewhat annoying micromanagement, where he tends to ignore the bigger picture at times. Don't get me wrong, he has done well so far, but needs to stop with those tendencies.

Fact is, like Roma this was meant to be a long term project in which expectations will be based on simply the rate of progress and not results. So far he has exceeded expectations, progressed faster than expected, and won over many of the stubborn and pragmatic euskadi.

And Bilbao have a better squad then named above. Iraola who is pretty much Espana's best RB and this has been long stated. Iturraspe is like a young cambiasso. Amorebieta is one of the Liga's best CBs. San Jose has developed into a fine CB. Susaeta, Aurtunexte, Ekiza, Igor. I don't have to name the more prominent talents. I feel once they are properly utilized and played, they will exceed the money clubs of the top 4.

One more thing, the mythical misconception that Bilbao play english style long ball is ridiculous. They only did that with Caparros is this is one of the reasons he was formally let go despite doing a good job. No one has ever heard of Clemente's side in the 80s? Saez' side in the early 90s? Urquizu's superb side in the 40s which pioneered some of the best football in Espana? Need I name more? This myth has to be stopped.

Bielsa is not even fully implemented his own philosophy as the whole idea was to bring him in to blend his with the historic Basque ideology.

Superb post, I enjoyed reading that Arq. Kudos if I could.

This line:

"So far he has exceeded expectations, progressed faster than expected, and won over many of the stubborn and pragmatic euskadi."

Was all I was really looking to say, I really dont understand how people can say HAS to finish in the top 4.

I agree about Bielsa and the overtinkering and such, but my only explanation to offer is he is searching still.

When he found something he was totally happy with in Chile (3313) he stuck to it consistently, only changing when the opponant lined up to counteract this formation. Of course, he will always be a bit of a excessive tinker man, no man is without their faults.

I think the main reason he hasnt stuck on a system is the 3 man back line doesnt work well against 1 striker and 2 high wingers which you see alot of in La Liga. I think he really would love to play 3 man at the back all the time, because the advantages it gives in other areas really suits his style of football. However, like I said, its not a system that can be played in La Liga as often as NT level and thus the constant changes.

Either way, as purely an outside looking in at Bilbao, im impressed and while I think Bilbao have a array of talent, I dont think they have a pound for pound they have a better squad then Valencia or on paper Atletico. But that being said, they still have a chance at 4th, which to me would be surprising in the first year.