Re: Messi GOAT claimers who hate on CR7...

by izzy Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:39 pm

Arquitecto wrote:
Doc wrote:Of course people are gonna expect Messi to lead Argentina to glory and it's only in that sense that people are gonna blame him for Argentina's failures. It's god damn harsh and wrong but it is how it is. You really think it's Cristiano's fault that Portugal don't do as well as they should: nope but he gets the fair amount of the blame. Why? Because he is their talisman.

The same applies to Messi. I know it isn't Messi's fault Argentina under achieve. They have been under achieving since 1994 (judging from the talent that consistently appears every 4 years), I doubt Messi can stop that from not continuing. But it is really hard to really claim GOAT status without a World Cup.

No, the Portuguese expect CR to be their talisman. Right now, he not reached anywhere near level that expectation and hasn't really ever done so for his national team.

His performances have been nowhere near how they have been for his club.

ARFFFF!!!!!

Euro 2004, World Cup 2006. He performed very well.

by Great Leader Sprucenuce Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:40 pm

CR7 was shite in WC 2006 lol.....

by Doc Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:41 pm

Arquitecto wrote:No, the Portuguese expect CR to be their talisman. Right now, he not reached anywhere near level that expectation and hasn't really ever done so for his national team.

His performances have been nowhere near how they have been for his club.

Agreed but is it his fault, like totally his fault that Portugal falter or don't do as well as they should? I honestly don't think so. What about the 10 other players? What about the player selection from the manager and Portuguese FA? It's just the point I tried to bring across (using Cristiano as reference) with Messi when it comes to the constant blame he gets for Argentina's failure to really impress.

by Zealous Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:45 pm

Immaculate_Mole wrote:CR7 was shite in WC 2006 lol.....

All he had to do to knock England out was wink.

And if not for a dodgy France penalty or Figo missing a sitter at the death after a rebound from a 35 yard free kick he took he might have reached the final.

by Great Leader Sprucenuce Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:49 pm

That was more due to Portugal as a team than CR7 himself, his individual performances were average at best......

Both CR7 and Messi have had 1 good international tournament each...... Euro 2004 for CR7 and Copa America 2007 for Messi......

Other than that both have been very disappointing to say the least.

by Zealous Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:52 pm

Yeah Bro Maniche totally carried Portugal on his back in 2006 :bow:

That said I agree that Ronaldo didn't have a great WC in '06 but he was above average.

by Swanhends Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:57 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:
halamadrid2 wrote:will argentina ever win a WC???

Maybe not in Messi's career. But does he really need it? Cruyff and Di Stefano didn't.

Cruyff and Di Stefano didnt need it? hmm

Who considers one of them the best ever? A very underwhelming minority?

That sounds like proof to me that you do in fact need it...

by Zealous Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:59 pm

Don Alfredo couldn't play in a WC finakl due to outside influences. So he has a great alibi.

by Highburied Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:08 pm

No World Cup, No GOAT status.

Those who say Argentina sucked balls in WC10... Please remind me when Messi scores like he does with Barca.

by Mr Nick09 Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:10 pm

che wrote:
paperbackwriter wrote:

Cruyff played at the same time as players like Best, Müller, Zoff, Beckenbauer and Mazzola among others. Platini played at the same time as Schuster, Rossi, Dalglish, Rummenigge and Lineker. Van Basten played at the same time as Baresi, Matthaus, Butragueno, Bergkamp, Stoichkov and Baggio among others.

lol, moar revisionist bullshit please

in 20 years people will remember that messi played at the same time as the likes of henry, iniesta, van persie and etoo and all of them will be revered as legends of the game... similarly, the same people will be acting like the back-in-my-day douchebags of today who judge players from 20-30-40 years ago by youtube videos and a few matches

just because you can't appreciate current players doesn't mean they're not good

This, so very much agree to this post.

I'm sorry but when people talk about Maradona as goat, i dont hear Platini getting mentioned. He is lauded because of his talent level and what he achieved in football. And it's true, 20 years from today, players like Gerrard, Lampard, Drogba, Etoo, Rooney, Van Der Sar, Torres(lol), Ronaldo, Xavi, Iniesta, Etoo, the germans, RVP, Sneijder etc.... will be remembered as greats of his time and the argument will be moot. Im pretty sure people will even say that he pushed Ronaldinho out of Barca (which is true in a way).

by paperbackwriter Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:10 pm

Messi do not need to win the WC to be GOAT. I don't think that's the point, but he has to prove it without Barcelonas best side of all time, either with Argentina, another club or a new generation without Abidal, Puyol, Alves, Villa, Xavi, Iniesta and co. Thus when he's around 28-30 and have a new team around him (certainly with many of the other young players at Barca, but still without the Barcas GOAT eleven).

The thing about Argentina is that it's the only other context except Barcas GOAT that we've seen him. Sure it's a worse team, but he looks very human and far off his 2.0 goals/assists per game. Thus it makes one wonder how good he'd be in a "normal" team.

by BarrileteCosmico Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:14 pm

bhends wrote:
BarrileteCosmico wrote:
halamadrid2 wrote:will argentina ever win a WC???

Maybe not in Messi's career. But does he really need it? Cruyff and Di Stefano didn't.

Cruyff and Di Stefano didnt need it?

Who considers one of them the best ever? A very underwhelming minority?

That sounds like proof to me that you do in fact need it...

They're both always mentioned as the top players of their generation and one of the greatest to play the game. Sure if the debate is about GOAT according to most people it's about Pele vs Maradona vs Messi, but if the debate is whether Messi now deserves to be mentioned in the same category as Beckenbauer, Di Stefano, Cruyff, Pele and Maradona then the answer is undoubtedly yes.

by Swanhends Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:17 pm

Of course he wouldn't be as good in a "normal" team....but that means absolutely nothing

Its a team sport....every player benefits from being on a "great" team just as much as they suffer when being on a "normal" team

Thats hardly unique to Messi...

barilletecosmico wrote:They're both always mentioned as the top players of their generation and one of the greatest to play the game. Sure if the debate is about GOAT according to most people it's about Pele vs Maradona vs Messi, but if the debate is whether Messi now deserves to be mentioned in the same category as Beckenbauer, Di Stefano, Cruyff, Pele and Maradona then the answer is undoubtedly yes.

But surely you recognize the difference between the "group" or "category" of players mentioned as top players and the two names mentioned as "THE" greatest player....

by BarrileteCosmico Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:19 pm

paperbackwriter wrote:The thing about Argentina is that it's the only other context except Barcas GOAT that we've seen him. Sure it's a worse team, but he looks very human and far off his 2.0 goals/assists per game. Thus it makes one wonder how good he'd be in a "normal" team.

How many GOATs played in normal teams? Pele's Santos was the best team of its time, Cruyff played in a legendary Ajax, Di Stefano played with Gento and Puskas, etc. The only one to be able to claim he played witha "normal" team was Maradona.

by BarrileteCosmico Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:21 pm

bhends wrote:But surely you recognize the difference between the "group" or "category" of players mentioned as top players and the two names mentioned as "THE" greatest player....

Absolutely, but when I talk about Messi being GOAT I mean it as belonging to that category. The debate of who is THE best player in history is silly to have before Messi turns 30, imo.

by Zealous Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:25 pm

Aside from Puskas the only reason that Madrid team is regarded as highly as it is was because of Don Alfredo. He didn't play for a great team. He made that team great.

Every single one of those who played on that team say the same thing.

by Swanhends Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:31 pm

Zealous wrote:Aside from Xavi the only reason that Barca team is regarded as highly as it is was because of Messi. He didn't play for a great team. He made that team great.

Every single one of those who played on that team say the same thing.

by Zealous Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:34 pm

"Gento, you've won the the European cup a record six times do you think you deserve more recognition?" (or something along those lines)

Gento - "If Alfredo was at his peak for longer I would have won a lot more."

If Xavi says something remotely similar then that applies. Razz

by paperbackwriter Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:41 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:
paperbackwriter wrote:The thing about Argentina is that it's the only other context except Barcas GOAT that we've seen him. Sure it's a worse team, but he looks very human and far off his 2.0 goals/assists per game. Thus it makes one wonder how good he'd be in a "normal" team.

How many GOATs played in normal teams? Pele's Santos was the best team of its time, Cruyff played in a legendary Ajax, Di Stefano played with Gento and Puskas, etc. The only one to be able to claim he played witha "normal" team was Maradona.

Cruyff and Di Stefano are by most regarded as just behind Maradona and Pele, who have always been the two discussed as "GOAT". And both of them succeeded with both national and club team. Thus with more than just one set of co-players.

Messi, right now for me, isn't in that bracket, not even in the Cruyff and Di Stefano bracket. But right behind along with players like Van Basten and Platini.

by paperbackwriter Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:43 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:
bhends wrote:But surely you recognize the difference between the "group" or "category" of players mentioned as top players and the two names mentioned as "THE" greatest player....
Absolutely, but when I talk about Messi being GOAT I mean it as belonging to that category. The debate of who is THE best player in history is silly to have before Messi turns 30, imo.

This is exactly what alot of your fellow Barcafans are claiming. Not "up there among them" but "GOAT!!!!!".

by Zealous Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:46 pm

Never Understood why Platini isn't higher in GOAt discussions. I mean if it comes down to succes then Platini is just as successful if not more so than Old man Johan.

by LeSwagg James Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:47 pm

Messi can end all of this 'GOAT debate' by moving abroad and maintaining his excellence..

But is he man enough?

hmm

by paperbackwriter Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:50 pm

All I want to see really is Messi turning games where his team are under siege for 90 minutes instead of the other way around. A game where ha play for a team that doesn't have 70 % of the ball in a CL final. I want to see him play a game like the one Zidane had against Brazil in 2006. Where his team isn't the favorites, rather the opposite, but still one magical 90 minutes performance from Messi turns the odds...

by paperbackwriter Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:51 pm

Zealous wrote:Never Understood why Platini isn't higher in GOAt discussions. I mean if it comes down to succes then Platini is just as successful if not more so than Old man Johan.

He played at the same time as a certain Diego who were on another level... Just as the case for C. Ronaldo, he was always outshone.

by the xcx Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:54 pm

I tell you what if Messi moves to Stoke City, wins a sextuple or atleast treble, then yes hes GOAT!

by Ganso Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:54 pm

Swagg_Johnson wrote:Messi can end all of this 'GOAT debate' by moving abroad and maintaining his excellence..

But is he man enough?

no need to move abroad,im pretty sure that the only reason people doubt his GOAT status is because of the Argentinian NT

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