Re: Liverpool vs Spurs Match thread.

[McAgger]

Adam is so bad defensively it's not even funny....At center mid he's slower than Carragher ffs.....And his reaction is piss poor....good squad players nothing more.....is never going to be WC, hopefully just a temporary buy to take us to CL

Henderson is still too young.....I dont see world class potential in him to be honest. Just another above average player. Good squad player, not Liverpool starting quality.

Carroll hasn't done anything note worthy to justify the price tags....His ball control and dribbling is piss poor...He needs to improve. Even 50/50 headers, we either get a foul called against us or he loses them. Hopefully he improves, from what we've seen nothing special.

Enrique.....at time he's selfish but i love this guy.....had a bad game, but he's definitely one of the best LB's in EPL.

Downing, along with Enrique, one of our better purchases.....Deserves to start for us, has all the abilities to succeed. Bad game, but not his fault, playing with 9 man isn't easy.

Coates.....showed great signs....still very young, but definitely has WC potential. Improvements will show with experience.

Everyone was poor today tbh.....Skrtel at RB is a fail...We have 3 good Rb's, ffs Kenny just play one of them......Game plan just got ruined because of the red cards but oh well.....We should be better from here on.

[Guest]

From the first kick, we were wank. we were pants. Every single player out there. Suarez needs to eff off with moaning and get on with it sometimes, that's 3 yellow cards in a row for him. Carroll needs to be much more assertive in the air...Adam's reactions are slower than Titanic turning to side, Henderson disappeared..Skrtel absolutely skinned. We finally sort LB out, and then our RBs get injured.

Worst league defeat since April 2003....hopefully the kick in the ass we needed, must win vs Brighton and Wolves, before 2 derbies.

Thank *bleep* Skrtel and Adam got red-carded...now Flanno and Jay can get starts. Adam is a valuable player at home, but in away grounds when he gets pressured, he is a liability. I'd play Jay in his place away from home until Stevie is fit.

Speaking of that...Get F***** Fit Stevie.


MASSIVE LULZ AT THOSE WHO SAID GERRARD CAN'T GET BACK TO THE TEAM

OO...and Agger injured again.SURPRISE SURPRISE

[Fahim89]

I would request Red to delete this thread. . it was our worst performance after Dogson . . won't waste any more words commenting on it. . let us all leave this thread alone and let it drift away as a bad memory

[Art Morte]

I thought it would be difficult but didn't think we would self-destruct like that.

I guess the only "positive" is that we played most of the game with 10 or 9 men and therefore our performance wasn't as catastrophic as it would have been to lose 4 - 0 when 11 v 11 against Tottenham.

And well, I can agree with what has been said in this thread already, no need to say the same things again with different words. This is bleeped up.

[McAgger]

*bleep* *bleep* *bleep*......ok now u can close it....so frustrating

[Nishankly]

First Goal.


Agger slipped and lost the ball. Bale got it. Now Skrtel presuming Agger covered the left moved central. But bale then played the ball inside now Agger struggling came central and Skrtel started drifting wide seeing that Agger was returning to position.

By that time Lucas had already come to cover the CB position. Now Parker played it out wide to Bale who crossed. We had two players[Agger, Skrtel] trying to block the cross but none of them even reached. The Ball went to defoe who tried to shoot on the turn but it was a fabulous tackle from Lucas.

And the ball went to Modric who scored.

The thing that could have stopped this -

Skrtel moving central and then staying central rather than trying to help Agger out on the left this would also have meant that Lucas would have allowed Modric to shoot.

Reina had no chance ..

2nd goal

Henderson lost the ball in the center, The ball went to parker who passed immediately to Ade. Ade played it through the legs of Carra to Defoe, Now Defoe is through on goal, But Enrique covers up a lot of ground and stops him well.

Reina was very poorly positioned in this goal, The chance was over the moment Jose stopped Defoe. That horrible positioning from Reina.

Reina's Fault.

3rd Goal.

Defoe shot straight at keeper, Reina fumbles it, Gets owned .. Addie Baddie scores.

Reina's Fault.

4th Goal.

Bellamy gets the ball just outside the D, Enrique makes a run in the left. But Bellamy loses it at a very dangerous position, Defense isnt ready, Easy ball to Ade , Enrique could not have covered back that much of space, Coates tried but Addie scored again. Reina no chance.

Bellamy's Fault.

--------------------------

Though i feel we would we have lost even with 11players on the field. 4-0 could and should have been averted.

We were woeful tactically.. Kenny needs to sort it out..

Some points

1. We have 2 midfielders running after 1 player, That means if the ball was passed sideways then most of the time our midfielder would not be able to cover it and give the Tot player acres of space.

2. Enrique was the MOM, Looked like he was training there. Pool i want to see his completed dribbles

3. Tbh Adam was a lol in this match and Skrtel too

[Arquitecto]

We're all understandably traumatised by that horror-show earlier and opinions will understandably differ on where the blame lies...and people love a bit of blame-apportioning, don't they?
Of course, to see reactionary caps-lock twats on here screaming moronic abuse at the manager fills me with disgust as shown in RAWK and as I don't share the gandhi-esque patience of others I struggle to tolerate or understand that level of idiocy. Just bore-off and scream your shit at your fellow mouth-breathers on talk-sport.

Kenny may have dropped the ball with the starting 11 in hindsight. Could Flanno have been more of a liability than Skrtel? Was Carroll worth a starting place ahead of Dirky? Was Hendo?

Adam was unfortunate to be sent off. There was no intent in the second challenge. That said, he had started poorly and looked lethargic and casual in his few contributions before forcing the hand of a trigger happy ref. His fault? Probably. Might Jones have used his head? Probably.

Once he was gone, should Carroll really have stayed on the pitch? Especially when he was effectively operating on the flanks and reduced to duelling aerially for long diagonal balls. His many knock-downs found no supporting red shirts. No lack of effort from the kid and his link-up was solid but he wasn't in the positions to influence the play. Truthfully, we need a lot more from the guy.

Suarez will be forgiven by most for his petulant, dummy-spitting performance today. These are the same one-eyed types who forgave every Torres strop last season. I'm not so sure. If he was knocking in goals and terrorrising defences then that becomes tolerable, but when he's not.....
Of course he must be frustrated by the lack of quality around him on a day like today and of course the guy is outrageously talented but Downing, Hendo, Carroll, Enrique and Lucas all got verbals off the little Uruguayan for what he saw as inadequate passing or support. No problem that he has high standards and has a moan (Carra) but worryingly, for the second game in a row, that's all I can remember about his performance. If it's ok to berate Carroll and demand more then surely we can expect more from Luis?

Downing and Henderson had days to forget, the former being virtually anonymous and the latter huffing and puffing to very little avail. Lucas found himself over-run and couldn't get anything going. To be fair Spurs midfield 3 were just superior from the k.o. and it might have been an idea to match them up. As it was we never managed a period of midfield dominance and that means you need a resolute defence and a sharp counter-attack. We had neither today.

Does this mean that all our players and coaching staff are suddenly shit and we're going down? Well of course not, despite the knee-jerkery of some and the just plain jerkery of others on twitter and the phone-ins.

The manager has some problems and they may or may not be critical. At the moment, we are reeling from getting our arses handed to us by a good side in a game that had gone away from us from early on. Adam and Skrtel suspended may mean that Coates and Gerrard or Kuyt start next time out. We played our pass and move against Stoke but today we were simply inept. The level of performance was as poor as it ever was under the Hodge or in Rafa's last days. That can happen. It cannot become a pattern or a habit.

Optimistic wittering about the future seems silly tonight, even though I'm naturally positive. Let's compromise and realistically expect that Kenny and the lads will put this right and get results against a good Brighton side and a Wolves outfit we owe one.

and great points being made by some of you guys today. I fully get the idea of not having the blinkers on when it comes to Kenny. He wouldn't thank anyone for questioning him and has the ability to eat a journo whole but it's that snippiness and ferocity that proves the guy's conviction. With Kenny NOTHING is more important than LiverpoolFootballClub (it was always one word with Dalglish). This much we can rely on and this much gives me consolation.


- Kuyt must start
- Hendo needs phasing in
- Carroll has to play furthest rorward or not at all...okay, that last one
- Flanno couldn't have been as bad as Skrtel...hell, I've recently ruptured my achilles and I'D be
better
- On current form, Adam ain't a starter when Stevie's back.
-Pepe MUST stop giving long balls!
- Despite the turnover in personnel, we're VERY light at centre-mid if Charlie isn't doing it and
Stevie's crocked. (That said, there is an element of revisionism about the Aqua debate. He
is classy in possession but simply never OWNED a game when played. The loss of the classy
Portuguese hipster/judas/whatever simply exacerbated the situation.)

These are ideas shared by many but not the boss. Maybe instead of blind faith we can agree that we will all disagree often with Kenny's take on team selection and tactics and hope for a return to the sort of results that makes that disagreement a moot point.

I trust this man more than anyone on the planet with the care of LFC. He will succeed I believe but if he fails it will be with dignity. Why then have so many rushed to embrace his failure? This is the mancs best start to a campaign since '85. That was Kenny's first season as player/manager and it ended with the Double.

Let's be magnanimous and fair enough to say well done to Spurs tonight, because they were better from minute one. Unpleasant but true. However, we support LFC and our club is on the up despite today. Breathe fellas.....

[mr-r34]

Im pretty sure if i remember correctly, aqua bossed the pompey game when we won 3-1, don't quote me on it though.

[mr-r34]

Also, can't believe people are flaming Kenny, sure i reckon kuyt should of started the game v spurs, but a man of kenny's stature in our club, we don't kneejerk according to so regarding his competance.

[Guest]

Win tomorrow and saturday, and it will be all forgotten.

It was just a horrible game from the moment it started....every good team has those days

[Art Morte]

Could Flanno have been more of a liability than Skrtel? Was Carroll worth a starting place ahead of Dirky? Was Hendo?

I think Skrtel did well as RB when he played there in a couple of previous games, but after this match it seems obvious he shouldn't start in RB when we're facing a team with such a potent attack and fast wings.

I think we must start Carroll for most matches, at the end of the day he has to be our first choice striker (I'm not counting Suarez a striker here).

I would have started Kuyt ahead of Henderson, yes. Maybe we will see that in big games from now on?

Of course he must be frustrated by the lack of quality around him on a day like today and of course the guy is outrageously talented but Downing, Hendo, Carroll, Enrique and Lucas all got verbals off the little Uruguayan for what he saw as inadequate passing or support. No problem that he has high standards and has a moan (Carra) but worryingly, for the second game in a row, that's all I can remember about his performance.

I don't want to be a doombringer or anything, but do you guys think Suarez will stay with us if an offer comes in from another big, perhaps a more success-ready club in Europe? Say, Real Madrid want to buy him next summer or the summer after that, will Suarez hand in a transfer request or will he be happy to be our star man, no matter our situation (CL football or not, mainly), what do you think?

[Arquitecto]

I think Skrtel did well as RB when he played there in a couple of previous games, but after this match it seems obvious he shouldn't start in RB when we're facing a team with such a potent attack and fast wings.

I think we must start Carroll for most matches, at the end of the day he has to be our first choice striker (I'm not counting Suarez a striker here).

I would have started Kuyt ahead of Henderson, yes. Maybe we will see that in big games from now on?

Yes, I do remember a couple of those games. But the truth is a fullback and CB have completely different skill sets and most importantly, movement. Skrtel looked like a fish out of water as he simply wasn't in practice to familiarize himself while Flanno who has shown to be able to cope among the best, would have my vote of confidence to stop the kick and rush Bale.

Carroll must be dropped based on his form, but I do agree with you he should be given the utmost faith and confidence by the team, fans and the King. Kenny must instill the mentality into our team that Carroll has to be fed the ball to his feet as Reina is a huge culprit of this and had me shouting at the tv.

Henderson? I like his one-touch passing and simple movement yet I always pointed out how he crumbles under pressure and likes to stay in the shadows similar to Lucas in his days of criticism. He needs to take the game by the nuts and get himself involved further.

I don't want to be a doombringer or anything, but do you guys think Suarez will stay with us if an offer comes in from another big, perhaps a more success-ready club in Europe? Say, Real Madrid want to buy him next summer or the summer after that, will Suarez hand in a transfer request or will he be happy to be our star man, no matter our situation (CL football or not, mainly), what do you think?

I could tell you Suarez is a friend of the Kop and wears the shirt with pride. I could tell you that his moaning is only due to his winning mentality and his inner leadership. I could tell you he wouldn't do that until we win and win and win. But when Torres did so, I will to this day never say never. That left me shocked and I'm still reeling from the impact.

The only difference is Suarez moans, but only increases his effort unlike torres who just sulked.

[edulfc]

I don't think Carrol is good enough to lead our attack at all. He could be good for a mid-table team like Newcastle, but definitely not for Liverpool. He is too slow and cant partner with suarez at all. Cant even engage in a counter. Maybe later he could grow to be the deadly striker we all wish him to be, but now he should be a bench player at most.

[Guest]

We could have had R9 at his prime up top vs Spurs, and he would have contributed null.

We lost the game in midfield battle and right hand side.

Suarez himself, is very off-form, but somehow he is immune of criticism

[Art Morte]

I don't think Carrol is good enough to lead our attack at all. He could be good for a mid-table team like Newcastle, but definitely not for Liverpool. He is too slow and cant partner with suarez at all. Cant even engage in a counter. Maybe later he could grow to be the deadly striker we all wish him to be, but now he should be a bench player at most.

Nice to see you posting, Edu but I think you're being a bit harsh there.

I agree, though, Carroll hasn't been good enough yet, but it's not all his fault. Our system isn't suiting him ideally, not yet anyway. Too often he's playing the ball far away from goal while we know he hasn't got the technique to really help us in that sort of areas. He needs to receive the ball in goal-scoring areas to be at his best. Then again, it's justified to question whether such a player is too limited for us or will we find a way to get the best out of his abilities. So far we haven't, but I'd like to think we're getting there.

[Guest]

The weird thing I noticed vs Spurs was. Carroll plays way too deep.

I think, after all the pressure of price tag, he is trying too hard to be the type of player he isn't (all rounder who can play make as well as scored -Suarez, Kun type)...He drifts wide, receives the ball, passes it to full back, but what's the point when he isn't even in the box to recieve any of those.

Carroll should play his own game, ignore the fans and pressure. He is a #9. #9S aren't known for the all around abilities, they aer known to be in the box and take advantage of the service provided to them.

Andy is never in the box, he always comes deep to gets the ball. If we get the ball to him just before the box, or in there he can cause damage. I really don't understand why we aren't utilizing his shooting ability.

[Nishankly]

The weird thing I noticed vs Spurs was. Carroll plays way too deep.

I think, after all the pressure of price tag, he is trying too hard to be the type of player he isn't (all rounder who can play make as well as scored -Suarez, Kun type)...He drifts wide, receives the ball, passes it to full back, but what's the point when he isn't even in the box to recieve any of those.

I think he drifted wide so that we dont lose out in midfield with a man less. Hendo moved central and Carroll went out wide to cover that wing.. Something like this happened, I think.

[Art Morte]

But yeah, I do think Carroll has been playing too much too deep so far.

I'd also like to see some runs from him, too often he comes to receive a pass with his back towards the goal and we just try to build it up slowly from there.

Anyway, the season is still young.

[edulfc]

We could have had R9 at his prime up top vs Spurs, and he would have contributed null.

We lost the game in midfield battle and right hand side.

Suarez himself, is very off-form, but somehow he is immune of criticism

I'm not saying Carrol is in form or off-form. what I'm saying is that he doesn't have the ability. period. if Suarez doesn't perform its because he is not in form, which is only temporary. But Carrol, I'm sorry to say has neither the class nor the ability to be our lethal front-man, (whether in-form or not). compare him to other strikers of clubs in serious contention for the premier league (torres/drogba, defoe/abebayor, aguero/dzeko/tevez, van persie, rooney/ even chicharito), and you will get my point.

[edulfc]

I don't think Carrol is good enough to lead our attack at all. He could be good for a mid-table team like Newcastle, but definitely not for Liverpool. He is too slow and cant partner with suarez at all. Cant even engage in a counter. Maybe later he could grow to be the deadly striker we all wish him to be, but now he should be a bench player at most.

Nice to see you posting, Edu but I think you're being a bit harsh there.

I agree, though, Carroll hasn't been good enough yet, but it's not all his fault. Our system isn't suiting him ideally, not yet anyway. Too often he's playing the ball far away from goal while we know he hasn't got the technique to really help us in that sort of areas. He needs to receive the ball in goal-scoring areas to be at his best. Then again, it's justified to question whether such a player is too limited for us or will we find a way to get the best out of his abilities. So far we haven't, but I'd like to think we're getting there.

Thanks man. I've been kinda busy so i mostly log on with mobile, from which posting is very difficult. But I'm less busy for now so you guys will be seeing more of me.
on topic: Its true its not all his fault, its true he can still develop. but i believe we don't have the time for that. for this same reason we sold ngog, babel, degen, insua and brought already made players like adam, enrique, bellamy etc because we want to challenge, at-least for a cl spot. we don't have the time to watch him mature before we launch our cl campaign, otherwise we will keep on playing catch up behind the other teams. we need wc strikers like aguero (could have gotten him for the same amount ffs!!!!) that can immediately adapt to any team or league.
I also noticed that whenever he is on the pitch, the team resorts to hoofing, but when he leaves there is more ground play and team work. A typical example is the arsenal game.

[BeautifulGame]

I don't think Carrol is good enough to lead our attack at all. He could be good for a mid-table team like Newcastle, but definitely not for Liverpool. He is too slow and cant partner with suarez at all. Cant even engage in a counter. Maybe later he could grow to be the deadly striker we all wish him to be, but now he should be a bench player at most.

Nice to see you posting, Edu but I think you're being a bit harsh there.

I agree, though, Carroll hasn't been good enough yet, but it's not all his fault. Our system isn't suiting him ideally, not yet anyway. Too often he's playing the ball far away from goal while we know he hasn't got the technique to really help us in that sort of areas. He needs to receive the ball in goal-scoring areas to be at his best. Then again, it's justified to question whether such a player is too limited for us or will we find a way to get the best out of his abilities. So far we haven't, but I'd like to think we're getting there.

Thanks man. I've been kinda busy so i mostly log on with mobile, from which posting is very difficult. But I'm less busy for now so you guys will be seeing more of me.
on topic: Its true its not all his fault, its true he can still develop. but i believe we don't have the time for that. for this same reason we sold ngog, babel, degen, insua and brought already made players like adam, enrique, bellamy etc because we want to challenge, at-least for a cl spot. we don't have the time to watch him mature before we launch our cl campaign, otherwise we will keep on playing catch up behind the other teams. we need wc strikers like aguero (could have gotten him for the same amount ffs!!!!) that can immediately adapt to any team or league.
I also noticed that whenever he is on the pitch, the team resorts to hoofing, but when he leaves there is more ground play and team work. A typical example is the arsenal game.

It isnt that simple.For starters Aguero will need 3 times the wage of Carroll and is so 3 costly than Carroll not the same price.And also he would have cost far more than than 35 mil if we approached Athletico on Jan 31st like we did to Newcastle.Aguero would cost way more than Carroll that is if we had the chance to sign him at all.So ts pointless comparing the fee of Aguero and Carroll.

And there is no guarentee that he would have come to us when we not a CL team.Particularly when a team lke City is chasing him.


I dont think Carroll or his abilities or his playing style is the issue here.More like his price tag.Just because he cost 35 mil everyone wants him to be an instant success.I dont think thats fair.He is still a 21 year young striker who needs time to both mature and fit into our style regardless of his price tag.

Drogba needed 2 years nearly to succeed at Chelsea , Gomez needed a year (Similar price tag ) to fit into Bayern and Dzeko needed half a season to fit with City.All were written off as flops.All are far more mature as players than Carroll and played similar style.

ANd we have lot of time to develop a 21 year striker regardless of CL qualification.because i dont think its depends entirely on Carroll thats why we have a squad.Or will u write of Coates to if he struggles in his first few games for us this season because we dont have time to develop a 21 year old defender too?

And we have plenty of time for Carroll to mature IMO.He has started what just 3 games this season so no point making a judgement on him.He needs time to integrate into the team.Not just 3 games.He will atleast need half a season to fit into our system if not more for a striker of his style.So judging him this soon is simply wrong.

Surely Lucas scenario would have thought us a lot about judging youngsters too soon?

[Art Morte]

Carroll is actually 22, will turn 23 in January.

I'm not exactly worried at this point, I know he can score goals. The most important area he needs to improve right now, in my opinion, is his movement and getting to goal-scoring areas.

But yeah, when we pay £35m for a player, we kind of can't afford him to turn out to be bench material. If I'm honest, I do question it sometimes was it really necessary to last-minute buy Carroll for that kind of money in January. Because while I do believe Carroll will improve, I don't see him becoming a £25m+ rated striker - and we could have splashed that £35m on someone else last summer had we not bought Andy. But we'll see how this goes and judge then.

[BeautifulGame]

Carroll is actually 22, will turn 23 in January.

I'm not exactly worried at this point, I know he can score goals. The most important area he needs to improve right now, in my opinion, is his movement and getting to goal-scoring areas.

But yeah, when we pay £35m for a player, we kind of can't afford him to turn out to be bench material. If I'm honest, I do question it sometimes was it really necessary to last-minute buy Carroll for that kind of money in January. Because while I do believe Carroll will improve, I don't see him becoming a £25m+ rated striker - and we could have splashed that £35m on someone else last summer had we not bought Andy. But we'll see how this goes and judge then.

Our Owners certainly needed a Striker atleast IMO if not it would have been a PR catastrophe.Imagine we had 2 American owners who lied to us day after day with broken promises and then comes new American owners who sell our most prized asset for 50 mil and dont reinvest the money.It would have been the worst case possibility they could have imagined and most of the supporters would have went after them straight away unfortunately.Add to this the already present doom and gloom at that time.

As good as Kenny has been last season to lift us without the lift of the purchases we made dont think the run we had last season would have been possible.It was a massive statement of investment when we purchased Carroll not just to the outside world but even within Liverpool that helped to convince some of our current players like Reina and maybe even the likes of Gerrard to a large extent to stay put IMO.

Its easy to say we should have invested in the summer but dont think it was really an option for them to wait till summer.

But frankly my point isnt that.Why should we concern he is a 35mil striker so he can be a bench player or not.What exactly will be the problem to our problem if a free striker starts for us and 35 mil striker comes of the bench (Until he develops into our system) as long as we progress?

Would anyone be complaining if Carroll was an academy product? I dont think so.I dont believe the issue here is his form or fitness or how he fits into our style.More like his price tag and hence no patience.Just because he cost 35mil we need instant results.I dont agree with this.Carroll need time to mature as well as fit into our system.Just because he cost 35 mil doesnt mean it changed anything.

Whether he will become a 25mil striker is a matter of opinion i suppose.I dont see any reason why he cant.After all the value and opinion of players changes faster than anything else when they have a couple of good games.

[Guest]

BeautifulGame should post more

[edulfc]

You guys are not getting my point. I don't care about the amount he was bought for, all I'm saying is....... he doesn't have the quality. period!!!
Its rather unfortunate that he is being constantly played because of his price tag.
If he was a youth product or was bought for a small amount, i guarantee you that he would never start over the likes of kuyt or bellamy.
His case is a very peculiar case because their is no guarantee he will turn out to be a better striker. (I'm not saying he wont). Unlike the dip in form of class players like Torres. Now we are stuck with him because of his price-tag. He could end up reducing our strike force and yet no development.
Or are you saying because he is 35mil then he should keep playing even as we get less results??
to buttress my point is the sale of ngog and babel. they both were promising, but we need the finished product already, not a developing youth player.

[RedOranje]

He doesn't have ability? Then what, exactly, was on display before his injury last season (especially against us), his love-making prowess?

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