Re: Best of the Rest in La Liga?

by El Chelsea Fuerte Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:10 pm

Adit wrote:
Adit wrote:
english_jewel wrote:
Immaculate_Mole wrote:Athletico lol...........

Wont finish higher than 10th.

Not when they have Courtois in the side
the atletico madrid youth product?

never mind,he is a youth product of belgian club genk.

We bought him from Genk and loaned him to Atletico. Probably for two seasons depending on how many games he gets 1st season.

Soon to be Cech's heir. :coffee:

by the xcx Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:22 pm

english_jewel wrote:
Adit wrote:
Adit wrote:
english_jewel wrote:
Immaculate_Mole wrote:Athletico lol...........

Wont finish higher than 10th.

Not when they have Courtois in the side
the atletico madrid youth product?

never mind,he is a youth product of belgian club genk.

We bought him from Genk and loaned him to Atletico. Probably for two seasons depending on how many games he gets 1st season.

Soon to be Cech's heir.

Soon is the wrong word here brah, Cech has still many, many years in him, besides a true age of a goal keeper starts as a 30+ yo.

by alexjanosik Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:44 pm

Valencia.I actually think they could finish close to the top 2 if Emery werent such a reactive coach but an active coach.
IMO they have the second best midfield in Spain.The attack is down a peg with the sale of Mata but still very good.
Defense is where they look dodgy and I will let che explain.
Still if Emery somehow turns into an active coach I expect them to finish close to Barca and Stoke.

by Arquitecto Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:48 pm

alexjanosik wrote:Valencia.I actually think they could finish close to the top 2 if Emery werent such a reactive coach but an active coach.
IMO they have the second best midfield in Spain.The attack is down a peg with the sale of Mata but still very good.
Defense is where they look dodgy and I will let che explain.
Still if Emery somehow turns into an active coach I expect them to finish close to Barca and Stoke.

Emery is still young as these impulsive traits are common with a coach of such young age especially the ones who are Basque. IMO Emery has shown great use of the resources he has been given and shown excellent improvement and growth within his own method and character.

He simply needs a plan B and needs to be able to process better under pressure situations.

Otherwise, he is a manager for the future and can actually manage the national team someday.

by Lord Awesome Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:56 pm

I think Emery has too many plans and tries to excercise them all the way he rotates the squad.

by alexjanosik Mon Sep 05, 2011 5:09 pm

Lord Hispano wrote:I think Emery has too many plans and tries to excercise them all the way he rotates the squad.

I agree completely.I get the feeling that he gets too caught up in tactics and the opposition.

by Dnmac4 Mon Sep 05, 2011 5:23 pm

People are going to see how good Cazorla really is this year. I think Villareal finish way outside the top 4 without him this year.

He was the glue that made that team run and I would have sold Rossi way before I sold him. I think they finish like 7th or 8th.

The third best team is Valencia by a mile, the table will finish like this although I am praying Atletico can find a way in the top 4 as I Think they could really be a solid team by next years Champions League.

1) Baca
2) Real
3)Valencia
4)Bilbao
5) Sevilla
6)Atletico
7)Malaga
8)Villareal

by Gil Mon Sep 05, 2011 6:04 pm

People are massively underrating Atletico in my opinion. Don't know if that's because they haven't seen most of their signings this season play before or something.

Arda Turan, Falcao, Diego and Reyes is an attack. Lots of skill, flair, creativity and goals in there. I'd even go so far as to say aside from City, United, Barca, Milan, Madrid and Chelsea you would struggle to find a better attack in World Football than that.
Reyes is inconsistent as hell but he's great when he's on form.

Turan is the best signing in La Liga this season in my opinion. He is a top class footballer and reminds me alot of Nasri but a more rounded version but slower version of him. He really does have no pace lol.
I still remember the first time I first watched him play which was against Atletico in the Calderon where he was fantastic and raped their back four time and time again. He played as a false 9 that night too! Extremely versatile player can play as a #10, both wings, CM and as a False 9 as I previously mentioned.

Think everyone knows about Falcao now and his exceptional goalscoring record and if Diego can recreate his Bremen form for Atleti they'll have one hell of a player on their hands.

Even though they've lost De Gea this season I feel their defence is still much better than it was last year.They've brought in an equally as talented keeper in Thibaut Courtois. Some Belgian football experts have even said he has the potential to become even better than the legendary Michel Preud'homme. I've admittedly not seen too much of Dominguez but apparently Del Bosque rates him highly? Godin is a very good defender from what I saw at the World Cup and Miranda was once highly rated a few years ago so they have a decent backup option.

Not too sure of their fullbacks though. I know their RB this season is Coentrao's backup in the NT but Luis Filipe still can't get a game right?

/ramble

by Mr Nick09 Mon Sep 05, 2011 6:14 pm

They have a great squad bar the center midfielders, but people are just doubting them based on their previous la liga campaign. I do think Manzano can make a difference for them

by Great Leader Sprucenuce Mon Sep 05, 2011 6:25 pm

Forlan, Aguero, Simao and Reyes does'nt have Lots of skill, flair, creativity and goals?

Atletico have always had talent in abundance but have always had the mentality of a relegation team....

The mentality of the club brings the the players down with it i would not be suprised in the slightest if all the players you mentioned flop because of this.

LOL Nick it's not one campaign its almost a decade of flop Laughing

and i doubt Manzano will change much he did'nt change much at Sevilla....

Also thier biggest problem outside of mentality has been thier midfield and i see it still is a massive pile of crap.

by Gil Mon Sep 05, 2011 6:34 pm

St_Nick09_of_Goal wrote:I do think Manzano can make a difference for them

Agree with this. From the two matches I've seen of them so far this season they really did play some excellent stuff at times albeit against poor opposition. I was more impressed by their defence though it looked surprisingly solid.

Not sure if I'm correct but apparently they have yet to concede a goal ever since Manzano was appointed.

Immaculate_Mole wrote:Forlan, Aguero, Simao and Reyes does'nt have Lots of skill, flair, creativity and goals?

Atletico have always had talent in abundance but have always had the mentality of a relegation team....

You're missing the fact they've been lacking a playmaker for years now though. Jurado was decent player for them but he's not in Diego's class.

by Mr Nick09 Mon Sep 05, 2011 6:37 pm

@Mole, it's true they always had talent, but for once they are trying something different as opposed to sending the ball straight to Aguero or Forlan and wish for the besst. They build up, they try to have a passing game more advanced, i give them the benefit of the doubt. They have enough potential to make 4th, specially when they such good depth

by Great Leader Sprucenuce Mon Sep 05, 2011 6:41 pm

Gil wrote:
St_Nick09_of_Goal wrote:I do think Manzano can make a difference for them
Agree with this. From the two matches I've seen of them so far this season they really did play some excellent stuff at times albeit against poor opposition. I was more impressed by their defence though it looked surprisingly solid.

Not sure if I'm correct but apparently they have yet to concede a goal ever since Manzano was appointed.

I said the same last year and they shipped 3 against Sevilla then went downhill :facepalm:

All this hype from a 0-0 draw at home against Osasuna? :facepalm:

I am sorry to be this guy but every year Pathetico get hyped and every year they flop :facepalm:

Not falling for this BS anymore.

by S32TABLANCA Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:52 pm

I actually understood the question from the beginning. Very Happy

Valencia, obviously. Atletico have a good team and a good coach, but we say this every year and they always bottle and fail. Im thinking maybe:

Barca/Real
Valencia
Atletico
Sevilla
Villarreal
Athletic

I dont have much faith in Athletic, but maybe they can reach the Europa League places. Or maybe Malaga can do that. As always in La Liga, no competiton up top but plenty in this area.

by The Franchise Tue Sep 06, 2011 3:08 am

Well I like the fact Atletico are finally getting away from 442, its been half their problem for like 4 seasons now. Its outdated and they didnt have a good enough midfield for it in the first place.

I think they have a chance of doing better this season, but they are like Spurs, you just cant hang your hat on them.

Also, they lack midfielders with defensive ability, always leaving the defence to the defenders. Thats been their problem for years too. They have the mentality of, let the defenders deal with the defending and the rest of us do what we like.

Thats why defenders even as good as Dominguez and Godin struggle. At the start of the season last year, he (Godin) was outstanding, but as the months went by his performances dropped and by the end he looked like a terrible centerback.

by Great Leader Sprucenuce Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:54 am

Dani it was never a flat 4-4-2( which is outdated) it has always been a 4-4-1-1 that converts into a 4-2-3-1 at times alot like Man Utd also like how Juventus will play this season....

I dont think that has ever been an issue..... Mentality, no dm, no dlp have always been the real issues.

by El Chelsea Fuerte Tue Sep 06, 2011 12:05 pm

The xcx wrote:
english_jewel wrote:
Adit wrote:
Adit wrote:
english_jewel wrote:
Immaculate_Mole wrote:Athletico lol...........

Wont finish higher than 10th.

Not when they have Courtois in the side
the atletico madrid youth product?

never mind,he is a youth product of belgian club genk.

We bought him from Genk and loaned him to Atletico. Probably for two seasons depending on how many games he gets 1st season.

Soon to be Cech's heir.
Soon is the wrong word here brah, Cech has still many, many years in him, besides a true age of a goal keeper starts as a 30+ yo.

IHMO with Cech's injury issues, I don't think he'll survive more than 3-4 years for us. Of course it's stupid to predict that far, but I think there's a reason why we gave Courtois a 3-4 years time estimate as to when he can expect to represent Chelsea. As soon as he starts showing weakness after that time period (in which an injury is also likely) and if Courtois lives up to his hype, then I think the club would want to secure the next decade rather than the next 2-3 years. All depends on how he performs on loan IMO.

by The Franchise Tue Sep 06, 2011 2:49 pm

Immaculate_Mole wrote:Dani it was never a flat 4-4-2( which is outdated) it has always been a 4-4-1-1 that converts into a 4-2-3-1 at times alot like Man Utd also like how Juventus will play this season....

I dont think that has ever been an issue..... Mentality, no dm, no dlp have always been the real issues.

Same difference when Aguero and Forlan are you forwards. You get the same issues.

The midfield 2 dont get protection, they either have to chase up the pitch to close down (because the forwards wont) and thus leave a great space behind them. Or they sit back and protect the defence, but the other midfield easily dominate the ball as they have more time and space.

It doesnt really matter if the strikers are split or not, if they dont work for you, the midifled will be swamped.

On that point about, Juve are doing it wrong in my opinion if they plan on playing 442/4411, especially if Pirlo is one of them. That center will be soft as it gets.

Man Utd do well because Rooney works for you, Hernandez does and Welbeck too. So thats not a problem untill they face Barca and you see what happens when you have just 2 midfielders.

by Great Leader Sprucenuce Tue Sep 06, 2011 2:57 pm

The Franchise wrote:
Immaculate_Mole wrote:Dani it was never a flat 4-4-2( which is outdated) it has always been a 4-4-1-1 that converts into a 4-2-3-1 at times alot like Man Utd also like how Juventus will play this season....

I dont think that has ever been an issue..... Mentality, no dm, no dlp have always been the real issues.

Same difference when Aguero and Forlan are you forwards. You get the same issues.

The midfield 2 dont get protection, they either have to chase up the pitch to close down (because the forwards wont) and thus leave a great space behind them. Or they sit back and protect the defence, but the other midfield easily dominate the ball as they have more time and space.

It doesnt really matter if the strikers are split or not, if they dont work for you, the midifled will be swamped.

On that point about, Juve are doing it wrong in my opinion if they plan on playing 442/4411, especially if Pirlo is one of them. That center will be soft as it gets.

Man Utd do well because Rooney works for you, Hernandez does and Welbeck too. So thats not a problem untill they face Barca and you see what happens when you have just 2 midfielders.

While that's a good point does Diego work any harder than Aguero?

I dont think so, personally am of the belief that the biggest issue is'nt the protection the withdrawn forward gives the midfield its the fact the midfield is utter trash and imo still is.

Also City's formation against Tottenham was similar Aguero off Dzeko with Silva and Nasri either side and with 2 holding players....

The issue is'nt the formation imo its the players filling the roles in that formation.

by Gil Tue Sep 06, 2011 3:36 pm

Nick is clearly an Atleti supporter.

by Great Leader Sprucenuce Tue Sep 06, 2011 3:40 pm

Gil wrote:Nick is clearly an Atleti supporter.

This

by McLewis Tue Sep 06, 2011 3:46 pm

Put me in the Atleti camp as well.

They've made some fantastic signings, have a great coach in Manzano and now have the required depth in all departments, barring goalkeeper.

The onus is now on the coach and the players to get their mentality and tactics right. If they can do that, then I think we'll see a different Atleti than the one we've been accustomed to seeing.

by DeviAngel Tue Sep 06, 2011 3:50 pm

I rate atleti to .... they always play with heart at least they did when Forlan was there

by Great Leader Sprucenuce Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:01 pm

McLewis wrote:Put me in the Atleti camp as well.

They've made some fantastic signings, have a great coach in Manzano and now have the required depth in all departments, barring goalkeeper.

The onus is now on the coach and the players to get their mentality and tactics right. If they can do that, then I think we'll see a different Atleti than the one we've been accustomed to seeing.

Best of the Rest in La Liga? - Page 3 If-baby-food-demotivational-poster-1260799089

by The Franchise Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:28 pm

Immaculate_Mole wrote:
The Franchise wrote:
Immaculate_Mole wrote:Dani it was never a flat 4-4-2( which is outdated) it has always been a 4-4-1-1 that converts into a 4-2-3-1 at times alot like Man Utd also like how Juventus will play this season....

I dont think that has ever been an issue..... Mentality, no dm, no dlp have always been the real issues.

Same difference when Aguero and Forlan are you forwards. You get the same issues.

The midfield 2 dont get protection, they either have to chase up the pitch to close down (because the forwards wont) and thus leave a great space behind them. Or they sit back and protect the defence, but the other midfield easily dominate the ball as they have more time and space.

It doesnt really matter if the strikers are split or not, if they dont work for you, the midifled will be swamped.

On that point about, Juve are doing it wrong in my opinion if they plan on playing 442/4411, especially if Pirlo is one of them. That center will be soft as it gets.

Man Utd do well because Rooney works for you, Hernandez does and Welbeck too. So thats not a problem untill they face Barca and you see what happens when you have just 2 midfielders.

While that's a good point does Diego work any harder than Aguero?

I dont think so, personally am of the belief that the biggest issue is'nt the protection the withdrawn forward gives the midfield its the fact the midfield is utter trash and imo still is.

Also City's formation against Tottenham was similar Aguero off Dzeko with Silva and Nasri either side and with 2 holding players....

The issue is'nt the formation imo its the players filling the roles in that formation.

Well if the withdrawn forward gives help or not, or even if the midfield is poor quality wise (it is) you asking for trouble playing a 442/441 vs a 4231 of equal quality players. If both of those things happen, the forwards dont defend (the wingers Simao, Reyes, Maxi to an extent dont help either) and the midfield arent good enough you always going to have trouble.

They were the definition of a broken team. The back 4 defending, the forward 4 attacking and the midfield doing neither. Instead of having a complete unit doing all, they have this broken system which was always going to fail when push come to shove. The only reason they won games was they indvidually had good quality.

Yes City play the same type of system, but they have two holding midfielders. They dont have to come out and press the opponant they can sit back and defend. Silva and Milner/Nasri tuck in and protect the center and then go out wide to defend is needed. Atleticos straight 4 man lined up midfield dont do that, the wingers dont tuck in and help and they often dont track the fullbacks. Also, they (City) dominate possession because instead of having two wingers, they have number 10 type players (Silva, Nasri)who can play possession ball or even further back another midfielder in there like Yaya, instead of a risk taking forward like Forlan.

If your playing 4411 with wingers, no forward or wingers defending and 2 midfielders who cant defend...you get what you ask for.

The same formation, with 2 holding players and a possession oriented team you sure to get better results.

The problem is, Atletico stuck with the first formation despite the fact they dont have the players for it and even if they did, all the 4231's in La Liga would give it direct problems.

In the end, if you play 2 men in midfield, they have to deal with 3 players. Asking a forward to come back and help the midfield, isnt ever a defensive situation you want to bank on for me.

So perhaps outdated is the wrong word, but the way in which Atletico played the formation and the players they used were outdated.

by Mr Nick09 Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:48 pm

i dont support Atletico, but i dont dislike them neither. i care for spanish football Very Happy

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