Re: It isn't Wenger's fault?

by Arquitecto Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:03 am

Iceman wrote:
BeautifulGame wrote:
Iceman wrote:
Could you perhaps rephrase this part?

If he wants quality defenders like Subotic is the reason why he hasnt made a bid for Cahill then why try to sign Jagielka.(Sorry i confused Lescott with Jagielka ) Jagielka isnt a better defender than Cahill and is older too.

Wenger doesn't believe that any of these three players (Dann, Jagielka and Cahill) is better than the defenders at the club (Squillashit aside of course). He likes Jagielka more than the rest, and that part is obvious. You might not think he's better, but Wenger's scouts say differently.

BeautifulGame wrote:
Iceman wrote:

"Relatively cheap" isn't exactly "Cheap" for Arsenal. Our HIGHEST earner makes 110k/week, and thats RVP. If you take taxes into account (which takes away ~50% I believe) then RVP effectively makes 55k/week. That is how much our highest paid player is making. The board is refusing to up his wages to 150k/week...Do you honestly think they'd go for players that would probably demand even higher wages than that? This is why AW wants to increase all of the wages at the club, especially the top players' wages. To have a better wage-structure where we can lure in the best players without upsetting our current players. For example, if we get in Subotic and he takes 150k/week, then RVP will be extremely pissed I'd imagine.

The club has been recently linked with several of these players that wouldn't demand high wages, as you mentioned, but luring them into the club will need us to put up higher wages than what they are already making. Still, I'd like for you to mention some names that would be a definite improvement and won't demand high wages.

The likes of Subotic wont cost more than 60-70 k as they are earning similar with BVB.Though the thing is whether they will want to move or BVB would sell them is another matter.

There are plenty of quality players who would have improve arsenal and wont need to break the wage structure.That is if paying transfer fees is not the problem as the article indicates.We signed suarez his wages were only 80k including tax is a case in point.

We bought freakin Chamberlain on a deal worth 12-15 million. This just shows, right there, that the transfer fees aren't the main problem. Liverpool's wage structure is a bit screwed up though. You've got Joe Cole making 110k/week, Poulsen making like 70k/week I believe....Some incredible numbers there; but what you had when you signed Suarez was the backing of the board and the manager. This just isn't present here at Arsenal.

Poulsen was brought in by the hand of the coach who must not be named and given the green light to be paid that much by "the manager who must not be named"

Cole? We all expected J.Cole to come in for us.

Instead what we got was an unfit and bloated steven seagal.

Both of them don't earn the same salary anymore I believe.

by Iceman Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:03 am

cyberman wrote:You cant validate something just because it fits your POV

I've said, time and time again throughout this thread, that this is what I personally choose to believe. I already stated that it states no source, but it makes a lot of sense to me and it would to you too if you really think about it.
It just makes sense to me, and I've been following this action right from the beginning. It even makes sense to most gooners on here.

This definitely wasn't something that was made-up to take the heat off of Wenger though, as you tried to imply. Only published in an online forum, without giving it to any news agencies to spread the word? Doesn't seem likely at all.

by Iceman Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:05 am

Arquitecto, how much did Torres make at Liverpool? I just want to know how much transfer-wages got freed up with his departure.

by BeautifulGame Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:08 am

Iceman wrote:Arquitecto, how much did Torres make at Liverpool? I just want to know how much transfer-wages got freed up with his departure.

Signed on 80k and was on 110k when he left for Chelsea.

by Jay29 Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:09 am

Agreed, especially about the bit in red.
The problem is, right now, that I don't know who I'm supposed to blame exactly. This year is the first year that we actually have funds available to be used. Last year there were minimal funds available and the year before that, we only had a couple of million left after the purchase of Vermaelen. This year we have the money, but new problems have popped up that are causing such stagnation.

I choose to believe the article. Partly because I like Wenger too much, and so I don't want him to be the one at fault here, but also because it makes a lot of sense and explains almost everything that has been going around the club.

I don't think it's just one party that is to blame. Both the board and Wenger have contributed to the club's stagnation.

No one though really knows the full extent of what's happening behind the scenes and we can only make assumptions. Logically speaking, we cannot blame Wenger for every failed transfer and lack of activity like most fans are prone to doing because negotiating transfer fees is not his job.

At the same time, Wenger does hold quite a large influence in the club and might actully be purposefly not demmanding transfers and stubbornly sticking with what he has.

The point is, nobody can say for certain. Admittedly, I blame the board more since it is they who have the most to gain out of making more money from not spending large amounts, but without conclusive evidence of anything I'm mostly going to ride this out and see what happens.

by The Franchise Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:10 am

I do find alot of this hard to believe, not that its not possible, just, it sounds like a very convient way of taking all blame from Wenger. It sounds like this was made up to protect Wenger, rather then this is the truth and therefore he must defend him.

I read quotes like this from Wenger, and it leaves me more confused.

"I will pay £30 million I will even pay £40 million if I find the right players,'' he told Sky Sports News. "But it's not a question of money, it's a question of quality we find. I think I have a wrong reputation of not wanting to spend money - I do not want to spend money for average players."

So, is he saying a Benzema, a Mata, Hazard, Jose Enrique or whoever else, they are not worth the money?

Because this is a different situation to as the article put it, he wants these players but the board wont let him.

by BeautifulGame Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:13 am

Iceman wrote:
Wenger doesn't believe that any of these three players (Dann, Jagielka and Cahill) is better than the defenders at the club (Squillashit aside of course). He likes Jagielka more than the rest, and that part is obvious. You might not think he's better, but Wenger's scouts say differently.

The point i was trying to make is based on the article Wenger only wants to sign defenders on the next level on quality like Hummels.

From the article:

People ask why have Arsenal not signed Cahill, Dann or Samba etc, well its simple really, Wenger wants better players, the Board want him to sign the above level of player, as it sits with their wage scale, Arsene wants the next level up, a Subotic, a Hummells, but they come with not only high transfer fees but with massive wage demands.

If thats the case then why bid for Jagielka? Surely he cant believe Jagielka is on the level with the likes of Subotic and Hummels.

You cant make a bid for Jagielka and then say the reason he didnt sign a defender was because he only wanted world class defenders.

by BeautifulGame Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:15 am

The Franchise wrote:I do find alot of this hard to believe, not that its not possible, just, it sounds like a very convient way of taking all blame from Wenger. It sounds like this was made up to protect Wenger, rather then this is the truth and therefore he must defend him.

I read quotes like this from Wenger, and it leaves me more confused.

"I will pay £30 million I will even pay £40 million if I find the right players,'' he told Sky Sports News. "But it's not a question of money, it's a question of quality we find. I think I have a wrong reputation of not wanting to spend money - I do not want to spend money for average players."

So, is he saying a Benzema, a Mata, Hazard, Jose Enrique or whoever else, they are not worth the money?

Because this is a different situation to as the article put it, he wants these players but the board wont let him.

Exactly what i am trying to say.

by Mr Nick09 Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:17 am

The Franchise wrote:I do find alot of this hard to believe, not that its not possible, just, it sounds like a very convient way of taking all blame from Wenger. It sounds like this was made up to protect Wenger, rather then this is the truth and therefore he must defend him.

I read quotes like this from Wenger, and it leaves me more confused.

"I will pay £30 million I will even pay £40 million if I find the right players,'' he told Sky Sports News. "But it's not a question of money, it's a question of quality we find. I think I have a wrong reputation of not wanting to spend money - I do not want to spend money for average players."

So, is he saying a Benzema, a Mata, Hazard, Jose Enrique or whoever else, they are not worth the money?

Because this is a different situation to as the article put it, he wants these players but the board wont let him.

Specially benzema, earlier in the summer, he could have made a bid for him, but he didnt. Benzema has very high wages as well.

I agree, i think he didnt sign those players because he couldnt. it's wll documented he wanted Hazard, but this summer his price went up.

All the players he signed this summer were for relatively low amounts. I still remember when he was about to sign Mata, and all of a sudden he went for Chamberlain. Maybe we dont have all the pieces but it's almost as if his own board stopped him from coughing the money.

by Iceman Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:17 am

There is just too much that is unknown. The board needs to be more transparent...We fans need to know what they have in mind.

Everyone here can agree that all of these players would probably walk right into the starting XI; while Chamberlain isn't doing so atm. To say that Wenger believes that Chamberlain has the quality that these players lack doesn't make sense to me.
What also doesn't make sense to me is how Wenger has suddenly become "an idiot" in the public eye, which is why I know for certain that it isn't solely his fault. You don't just wake up one day, after being a successful manager and a smart tactician, to find yourself not knowing what your team needs or what you should do. He is being restricted in some way or another, that much is certain I believe.

by Dnmac4 Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:18 am

If anyone chooses to believe this article they are a couple sandwich's short of a picnic.

The author want's you to believe that Arsenal's board are tight on money and not Wenger.

He is saying that they want to be financially responsible and not give players big wages, but instead to waste 40 million dollars on players there coach is telling them won't help the team and to just buy them to shut the fans up. Do you see the failed logic here.

This is the stupidest logic I have ever seen in my life. The board are smart enough to know if they make signings that don't improve the team much and dont make CL that the fans will still be pissed and they will lose even more money by not making the Champions League and it would be way cheaper to give a couple players raises then lose out on that money.

I know you may WANT to believe this article but anyone with an economics degree can tell you how failed this logic is.

I also have a source who told me where the holy grail is, but I can't release his name. This is nonsense.

by Iceman Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:22 am

St_Nick09_of_Goal wrote:
Specially benzema, earlier in the summer, he could have made a bid for him, but he didnt. Benzema has very high wages as well.

I agree, i think he didnt sign those players because he couldnt. it's wll documented he wanted Hazard, but this summer his price went up.

All the players he signed this summer were for relatively low amounts. I still remember when he was about to sign Mata, and all of a sudden he went for Chamberlain. Maybe we dont have all the pieces but it's almost as if his own board stopped him from coughing the money.

The Chamberlain and Mata deals are not interrelated. We didn't opt for Chamberlain as an alternative. We were always attempting to buy him, but only when it became obvious that clubs, for example United (Who bought Smalling and Jones from right under our noses) , have started sniffing about another gem that Wenger was interested in, that we actually started moving faster towards completing the deal.

I agree with you though; its almost like he isn't able to get the players that he wants. He always liked Benzema, always admired Hazard...but its apparent that the board won't let him spend unless we enter some sort of crisis (Like when we bought Arshavin for example)

by The Franchise Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:25 am

Iceman wrote:There is just too much that is unknown. The board needs to be more transparent...We fans need to know what they have in mind.

Everyone here can agree that all of these players would probably walk right into the starting XI; while Chamberlain isn't doing so atm. To say that Wenger believes that Chamberlain has the quality that these players lack doesn't make sense to me.
What also doesn't make sense to me is how Wenger has suddenly become "an idiot" in the public eye, which is why I know for certain that it isn't solely his fault. You don't just wake up one day, after being a successful manager and a smart tactician, to find yourself not knowing what your team needs or what you should do. He is being restricted in some way or another, that much is certain I believe.

Wenger isnt an idiot, but that doesnt mean he is being restricted.

He could be choosing to not buy these players.

In his mind, and it would be logical to him, why buy Mata for 30m when you can get Oxlade for half and in 3 years make him a better player then Mata is.

Thats very possible and I wouldnt be surprised if thats his opinion.

by Iceman Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:26 am

dnmac4 wrote:If anyone chooses to believe this article they are a couple sandwich's short of a picnic.

The author want's you to believe that Arsenal's board are tight on money and not Wenger.

He is saying that they want to be financially responsible and not give players big wages, but instead to waste 40 million dollars on players there coach is telling them won't help the team and to just buy them to shut the fans up. Do you see the failed logic here.

This is the stupidest logic I have ever seen in my life. The board are smart enough to know if they make signings that don't improve the team much and dont make CL that the fans will still be pissed and they will lose even more money by not making the Champions League and it would be way cheaper to give a couple players raises then lose out on that money.

I know you may WANT to believe this article but anyone with an economics degree can tell you how failed this logic is.

I also have a source who told me where the holy grail is, but I can't release his name. This is nonsense.

That's the problem though. The board actually believes that the players that they are looking to buy are good enough, while Wenger disagrees. Why is that failed logic? This has nothing to do with Economics, and you don't need any Economics degree to figure this out.

The board don't mind spending 30 million, but they are not willing to spend the wages that come with a player who costs that much. They believe that players which Wenger deems as "average" are good enough buys to get the team through to the CL, which is their main goal. The problem is that Wenger is disagreeing with the board, so obviously there has to be something he says that they don't agree with; such as player evaluation for example.

by Iceman Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:30 am

The Franchise wrote:
Iceman wrote:There is just too much that is unknown. The board needs to be more transparent...We fans need to know what they have in mind.

Everyone here can agree that all of these players would probably walk right into the starting XI; while Chamberlain isn't doing so atm. To say that Wenger believes that Chamberlain has the quality that these players lack doesn't make sense to me.
What also doesn't make sense to me is how Wenger has suddenly become "an idiot" in the public eye, which is why I know for certain that it isn't solely his fault. You don't just wake up one day, after being a successful manager and a smart tactician, to find yourself not knowing what your team needs or what you should do. He is being restricted in some way or another, that much is certain I believe.

Wenger isnt an idiot, but that doesnt mean he is being restricted.

He could be choosing to not buy these players.

In his mind, and it would be logical to him, why buy Mata for 30m when you can get Oxlade for half and in 3 years make him a better player then Mata is.

Thats very possible and I wouldnt be surprised if thats his opinion.

Then why ever express interest in the first place? This has been the story of our transfer season so far: We're heavily linked with a player, and he seems to be destined for Arsenal, but then somehow everything falls apart. Something is off. It doesn't add up

by The Franchise Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:31 am

And to add to my point, if he did start signing big name players, it would ruin alot of his other work.

Dont take this the wrong way Arsenal fans, but I cannot think of another way to put it.

He relies heavily on stealing young players from clubs, he comes in and he sells the dream of playing time and improvement. He continues to have a excellent record with young players and he continues to bring youngsters into the first team time and time again and they do very well.

I imagine, its alot harder to start selling a 15 year old Barca youth players that dream when your signing 30m star names.

by Jay29 Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:32 am

There is just too much that is unknown. The board needs to be more transparent...We fans need to know what they have in mind.

This issue has only been exasperated since Stan Kroneke became majority shareholder. The man has not said a single thing since taking over the club. I understand he doesn't usually talk to media but with his reasons for becoming the majority shareholder still unknown, it only makes fans restless.

He's a wealthy man now in the position to invest money into the club but he's not come out and stated his ambitions for Arsenal. The only thing we know he wants to do is uphold the club's traditions and continue with the self-sufficient model. When you consider that it's this self-sufficient model that's holding the club back, that's not the best of things to tell fans at this time.

by Dnmac4 Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:33 am

Iceman wrote:
dnmac4 wrote:If anyone chooses to believe this article they are a couple sandwich's short of a picnic.

The author want's you to believe that Arsenal's board are tight on money and not Wenger.

He is saying that they want to be financially responsible and not give players big wages, but instead to waste 40 million dollars on players there coach is telling them won't help the team and to just buy them to shut the fans up. Do you see the failed logic here.

This is the stupidest logic I have ever seen in my life. The board are smart enough to know if they make signings that don't improve the team much and dont make CL that the fans will still be pissed and they will lose even more money by not making the Champions League and it would be way cheaper to give a couple players raises then lose out on that money.

I know you may WANT to believe this article but anyone with an economics degree can tell you how failed this logic is.

I also have a source who told me where the holy grail is, but I can't release his name. This is nonsense.

That's the problem though. The board actually believes that the players that they are looking to buy are good enough, while Wenger disagrees. Why is that failed logic? This has nothing to do with Economics, and you don't need any Economics degree to figure this out.

The board don't mind spending 30 million, but they are not willing to spend the wages that come with a player who costs that much. They believe that players which Wenger deems as "average" are good enough buys to get the team through to the CL, which is their main goal. The problem is that Wenger is disagreeing with the board, so obviously there has to be something he says that they don't agree with; such as player evaluation for example.

Wenger is the most stubborn coach I have ever seen. If the board were forcing players down his throat he would be out of there in a heartbeat. The board have faith in Wenger and trust in his evaluations, there is no one in Arsenals's franchise who knows more about this kind of stuff then Wenger.

The cold truth is that this transfer window mirrors all of Wenger's transfer windows. He puts too much faith in the players he has and refuses to buy anything that is not a deal. Where was all of this blame on the board in every other transfer window? You have sold players for big fees before and it's the same old story as every other transfer window.

by Mr Nick09 Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:33 am

Iceman wrote:
The Chamberlain and Mata deals are not interrelated. We didn't opt for Chamberlain as an alternative. We were always attempting to buy him, but only when it became obvious that clubs, for example United (Who bought Smalling and Jones from right under our noses) , have started sniffing about another gem that Wenger was interested in, that we actually started moving faster towards completing the deal.

I know you guys have always been scouting Chamberlain, but looking at your team, he is the last player you needed. You already brought Miyachi back, so was it necessary to bring another youngster not more advanced than him? That's why i thought Wenger finally decided to sign him as an alternative to Mata.

by The Franchise Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:34 am

Iceman wrote:
The Franchise wrote:
Iceman wrote:There is just too much that is unknown. The board needs to be more transparent...We fans need to know what they have in mind.

Everyone here can agree that all of these players would probably walk right into the starting XI; while Chamberlain isn't doing so atm. To say that Wenger believes that Chamberlain has the quality that these players lack doesn't make sense to me.
What also doesn't make sense to me is how Wenger has suddenly become "an idiot" in the public eye, which is why I know for certain that it isn't solely his fault. You don't just wake up one day, after being a successful manager and a smart tactician, to find yourself not knowing what your team needs or what you should do. He is being restricted in some way or another, that much is certain I believe.

Wenger isnt an idiot, but that doesnt mean he is being restricted.

He could be choosing to not buy these players.

In his mind, and it would be logical to him, why buy Mata for 30m when you can get Oxlade for half and in 3 years make him a better player then Mata is.

Thats very possible and I wouldnt be surprised if thats his opinion.

Then why ever express interest in the first place? This has been the story of our transfer season so far: We're heavily linked with a player, and he seems to be destined for Arsenal, but then somehow everything falls apart. Something is off. It doesn't add up

Its just a link. It doesnt make it fact and we dont know if the intrest was ever real to begin with.

Juve are a testament to that.

I wouldnt be shocked at all to learn Arsenal never once enquired about the status, wage or price tag of Benzema (Lyon or Madrid), Mata and a whole host of others. It wouldnt surprise me at all.

But if they did, why isnt it likely he heard the value of these players and then went against it for a the option I said earlier?

You can express an intrest, but still go another way and something not be drastically wrong. Can you not?

by Iceman Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:38 am

I have to go, and I'll reply to all of your points when I get back on tomorrow, but there is one thing that Dnmac said that was wrong. This isn't like every other transfer season.

2 seasons ago, after the sales of Toure and Adebayor (for a combined total of ~40 million IIRC), we only had 13-15 million to spend, and those were spent on Vermaelen leaving us with virtually no cash to spend on any other players. In other words, we were so far in debt that selling players was a must. Only last year did things start to look better and this is actually the first year that we've had a lot of money at our disposal. Wenger has been working within his means for the past 6-7 seasons, but this is the first season that funds have been available. Judging him based on the previous years isn't accurate at all

by Dnmac4 Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:40 am

"The board don't mind spending 30 million, but they are not willing to spend the wages that come with a player who costs that much."

This is garbage, thats like saying I'll buy a Ferrari but I refuse to put gas in it.

Give the board some credit, there not idiots. BTW, there are good players out there who don't make these 200k wages your talking about. I named some in 'who should Arsenal buy thread". Javi Martinez, Santi Cazorla, Antoine Greizzman, Adam Johnson. These are all reasonable buys that don't make a ton of money. The fact is he is still buying kids, Chamberlain, Campbell, etc etc.

It is the same thing as every other window, why do you think the boards policy is so different this time around? Nothing has changed.

by Dnmac4 Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:46 am

Iceman wrote:I have to go, and I'll reply to all of your points when I get back on tomorrow, but there is one thing that Dnmac said that was wrong. This isn't like every other transfer season.

2 seasons ago, after the sales of Toure and Adebayor (for a combined total of ~40 million IIRC), we only had 13-15 million to spend, and those were spent on Vermaelen leaving us with virtually no cash to spend on any other players. In other words, we were so far in debt that selling players was a must. Only last year did things start to look better and this is actually the first year that we've had a lot of money at our disposal. Wenger has been working within his means for the past 6-7 seasons, but this is the first season that funds have been available. Judging him based on the previous years isn't accurate at all

Almost every big team in world football is in debt. Barca had to take a freaking loan out to pay it's players. These clubs are huge financial institutions that have been around for a hundred years. If they want to buy a player they can find the money, everyone else seems to manage and they don't usually make as much as Arsenal does selling there players. Arsenal has made a lot of money over the last 3 years selling players don't give me that there is never any money to spend, the fact is that Wenger has a model and a project and that is how he does things and he believes in it, he is not going to change.

by Ali Mon Aug 22, 2011 3:17 am

dnmac4 wrote:This is garbage, thats like saying I'll buy a Ferrari but I refuse to put gas in it.

no, that's like saying I want to buy a Hummer but can't afford its gas

by The Franchise Mon Aug 22, 2011 3:25 am

I dont know how much Hummers go for, but of course I know they are big time gas guzzlers.

But I would think anyone that can afford to buy one, can also afford the gas.

by Arquitecto Mon Aug 22, 2011 3:29 am

The Franchise wrote:I dont know how much Hummers go for, but of course I know they are big time gas guzzlers.

But I would think anyone that can afford to buy one, can also afford the gas.

I owned a Hummer H2 SUT and purchased for 45 k euros.

That wasn't the problem.

I sold it last year because it seemed every time I went to a bar, restaurant or anywhere near, that someone had been riding the car on a road trip.

It guzzles gas like space shuttles guzzle space fuel.

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