Wengers project has failed.

by worms Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:15 pm

After 2005 Arsene always stated that he didn't need to spend silly money to compete and challenge for trohpies,8 years on and 0 trophies later there can now be no doubt that Arsenes "project" must be abandoned for Arsenal to progress and be were they once was,many moons ago.

Wenger always said that it was possible to rely on bringing through youth from the academy and buying younger talent,waiting for them to mature and turn into superstars and thus building a great team that can compete with the big boys not just domestically but in Europa too.He was right it is possible,just look at Borussia Dortmund,a team who have spent less net spend on transfers and less wages than Arsenal,they are currently one of the best teams in Europa.While Arsenal will surely not be in the CL next season.The difference in the clubs fortunes can only be laid down upon two men heads,that is Jürgen Klopp and Arsene Wenger.Where Klopp has succeeded Wenger has failed.Klopp has succeeded in building a team(I stress the word team here) who press as a unit,who defend well as a unit and never stop fighting,there are no passengers.They are dynamic in attack,their team combine the attributes of technique, athleticism and tactical discipline in perfect measure .Meanwhile Wenger has had 7 years to rebuild his defensive unit and buy a good GK to take over from Lehmann,needless to say he has failed miserably,there can be no excused here reds fans.There can be no excuses for that diabolical defending today,the amount of time Brave Scotty Parker had to play that pass was unforgivable.This is not just a one off,it has been happening for years and Wenger hasn't done his job properly and fixed it.

Arsenal fans,were does your club go from here? Is it time to finally admit that Wenger is no longer the man to take your club forward?

by the xcx Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:17 pm

Its time to move on

by Eman Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:43 pm

Overdone thread is overdone.

by worms Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:38 pm

By the way I am still laughing at the thought of Arteta been better than Alonso. eco smile

I wonder whether the same people who said this still have the audacity to compare Arteta to Xavi Alonso? Alonso has bossed it in the Euros,World Cup and CL.Bossed it against Barca last week.

What has Arteta ever done to be compared with this glorious bearded man? He has only ever played in the CL knockout stages twice and was anonymous against AC Milan and Bayern.He's not good enough to play well at that level and never will be.Hence why he hasn't even got one cap for his national side at the age of 31.

He was awful today,he can't play as a DM as he is too slow and can't tackle.He makes Alonso look like Gattuso in his prime.Where the hell was this guy for Tottenhams goals?And he doesn't have Alonsos skills on the ball,that is for sure.Also he is tactically poor,he doesn't know how to protect his defense.He doesn't know when to pass it forward or when to play it safe.

by LeBéninois Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:44 pm

Eman wrote:Overdone thread is overdone.

Agree. Nothing new here that we don't already know.

by Grooverider Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:04 am

Eman wrote:Overdone thread is overdone.

by Highburied Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:11 am

Grooverider wrote:
Eman wrote:Overdone thread is overdone.

by Forza Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:23 am

Does every single Arsenal fan now think that Wenger's project has failed?

by The Verminator Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:33 am

I don't know tbh. i mean maybe he failed perhaps but to what degree?

He built a new stadium, stayed in top 4 every season, reduced the debt (for the stadium), almost won the EPL in 08, and he's done this with minimal spending. Also it's not easy to win trophies when you've got 2 key players leaving every season. May not be an excuse but it's not making his already difficult job any easier.

So I guess you could go either way really. He hasn't won trophies, but he has done other important things with a small budget. I reckon he's succeeded partially, and failed partially too. But i wouldn't outright say he failed...

by Onyx Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:10 am

Isn't buying cheap and developing players Wenger's project, not the boards?

Or was it because of helplessness Wenger adopted this project?

by aleumdance Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:38 am

LET ME ADD GAS TO THE FIRE..

Wenger's youth project failed NOT BECAUSE OF NO MONEY, OR INFLUX OF 4HIT YOUTH.

but cuz of personal interest, Arsenal fans who have followed the youth would SWEAR to you that the Strasbourg man let Good youths die on loan, while we continued to watch $hit rained on us..

the good youths that refused to die on loan where kicked out for "bad behavior"....

Let me give you an insight...

Arsenal right now would have no need for podolski if we had given Jay emmanuel thomas a chance, but the Dictator decided his bad bahavior was bad for the club..GOOD YOUTH WASTED

Arsenal's best left back last season was Pedro Botelho on loan at levante, but instead of call him to the team, we decided to make do of our $hitty Brazilian Andre Santos.

Lansbury was our best youth midfielder before Wilshere , but one of the most $hit players every produced from the academy ( Mark Randall), was given more Arsenal games to FAIL than Lans.. now my Brethen, why is Lans?

Ignasi Miquel if he were in another team would have made full use of his potential, but Wengere let him rot in the reserve league while we had to watch a $hit shower of bad defenders.

Chuks Aneke coudl have been our "Arteta" replacement for this season, he literally was the best midfielder in under-16 and Under-18 level, so bad that Barcelona tried poaching him twice, what did Wenger do?

We have to stick with Ramsey as long as possible, and when Diaby is back from his journey to the end of the world, he is put in place while Aneke rots in some loan./.

I could go on, The Dictator killed the project for personal preference.

by The Franchise Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:12 pm

If Lansbury is so good why does he play for Nottingham Forest?

Miquel is what, 20 years old? What makes him ready? More importantly, whats better for him, playing every week in the reserves or playing once a month at best for the first team?

Aneke is 19 years old...yet again, what makes him ready? Perhaps Wenger is being patient with Ramsey and giving him time to devolp....you know, like he did with all the other midfielders you have had who have become good players.

Far be it for me to say it, but your a terrible fan.

by aleumdance Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:37 pm

do you even know the point of the project..

where you following these lads when they were Under-16?

only a true Arsenal fans who follows the academy knows the real damage being going on now..

lansbury is finished, that was my point mate, he got ignored so bad while people like ramsey where giving chances to prove themselves since theye were 17, lansbury got none to the point of frustration, try watching him now and he is a terrible shadow of himself..

Aneke was meant to be in the team by now, part of the "wilshere" styled introduction, but as he got better.. he was given the "reserves treatment". when you boss the under 16, and under 18 level, and given no chances at all, then thats when you get the popint of failure..

secondly , i have refused to comments on situations like Eden Hazard, Nacer Bazaraite, and alban Bunjaku... these guys were "LITERALLY" bullied out of Arsenal,

Hazard pains me the most for he shined on his bundesliga loans, but came back to sit on the bench while Denilson was given the license to be $hit.

now do you think I am a terrible fan?

as for my wenger criticisms, pls tell me which one i am wrong?

the part he has ignored our defense problems for 5 FVCKING YEARS?

or the pressing problem for LONGER THAN 5 FVCKING YEARS?

and currently using the transfer money excuse as smokescreen for one more $hit season?

go check the gunner forum i predicted our downfall long before everyone had hope..

i will rather be a terrible fan that knows whats going on than a naive fan who still trusts the strasbourg fvck

by aleumdance Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:43 pm

oh and to answer ur Miquel question,

at under-18 level, Miquel was rated higher than Jones, but Blackburn did the gamble and gave the youth a chance to shine, AND HE DID.

the reserves league is $hit, does not train or prepare you for anything.

try following the english youth system a bit more, then you get the whole frustration.

by The Franchise Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:51 pm

Maybe....just maybe....Lansbery was never that good and not on Ramseys level...which is why one plays for Arsenal and the other doesnt right now.

I find it hard to believe anyone was "meant" to be in the team by now, Nobody ever works like that..pre selecting players before they are deemded ready. Either he is ready now or he aint, they think he aint so thats that.

Nobody has said Wenger is perfect, pointing out flaws is no hard for any coach, but as I said many times already...people talk of this downfall...ignoring the fact if not for Wenger you would have nowhere to fall down from.

by The Franchise Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:52 pm

aleumdance wrote:oh and to answer ur Miquel question,

at under-18 level, Miquel was rated higher than Jones, but Blackburn did the gamble and gave the youth a chance to shine, AND HE DID.

the reserves league is $hit, does not train or prepare you for anything.

try following the english youth system a bit more, then you get the whole frustration.

Rated by who? And who cares, its just an opinion...in reality, maybe he wasnt better.

The reserves league is shit? But again, whats better...playing or not playing?

by aleumdance Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:55 pm

MATE, blasphemy..

Lansbury was the "pride of the academy" before wilshere, he was one of the best players of the 2007 EurosU-17, sent on loan, excelled, just was never given any chance, and nobody will know why..

Arsenal academy is doing poorly in the league this year, the rot is getting deeper every year.

and as for wenger mate, he stayed too long, back in 2007 fans were calling for a proper defensive coach, but after 5 years all we got is a failed zonal defense system.

yes he has done much for us, but he clearly is just not making any fans now, even on arsenalmania.com where his loyalist go to prowl, they are tired of him. its time

by aleumdance Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:59 pm

The Franchise wrote:
aleumdance wrote:oh and to answer ur Miquel question,

at under-18 level, Miquel was rated higher than Jones, but Blackburn did the gamble and gave the youth a chance to shine, AND HE DID.

the reserves league is $hit, does not train or prepare you for anything.

try following the english youth system a bit more, then you get the whole frustration.

Rated by who? And who cares, its just an opinion...in reality, maybe he wasnt better.

The reserves league is shit? But again, whats better...playing or not playing?

I wish you followed english U-18 and reserves mate...

I wish you did..

and yes, at a point 2 years ago players hated playing in the reserves league cuz it was literally training, even teams like wigan were sending 16 year olds to play in it cuz it was pointless. the fa allowed the reserves league to rot so hard teams abandoned it for other youth measures..

by The Franchise Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:08 pm

aleumdance wrote:MATE, blasphemy..

Lansbury was the "pride of the academy" before wilshere, he was one of the best players of the 2007 EurosU-17, sent on loan, excelled, just was never given any chance, and nobody will know why..

Arsenal academy is doing poorly in the league this year, the rot is getting deeper every year.

and as for wenger mate, he stayed too long, back in 2007 fans were calling for a proper defensive coach, but after 5 years all we got is a failed zonal defense system.

yes he has done much for us, but he clearly is just not making any fans now, even on arsenalmania.com where his loyalist go to prowl, they are tired of him. its time

Drenthe was the best player in the u21 European Cup, dont mean anything, hes crap.

Fact are right now he is playing for Nottingham, if he was so great I think he would be playing for a better team right now. Perhaps he had promise at some point, but realistically not all the kids work out and its not always about talent.

Your criticisms of Wenger, I could give criticisms for any coach...you saying its time to go, but who you going to replace him with?

As for Miquel, I dont care how bad it is, he is playing games...thats better than sitting on the bench and watching.

And you know, I have seen him play..he aint that good, maybe he just aint ready.

by Raptorgunner Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:34 pm

Wengers project failed because he stopped being a football manager and he became a Bank Manager.

Wenger was lucky to have some young players who helped him make millions and pay off a stadium and now he ran out.

by RealGunner Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:20 pm

Dani don't waste your time

by RealGunner Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:37 pm

As for the thread

It's a complicated question and a non-conclusive answer. The project didn't fail because of Arsene, he did what he could with the limited funds since moving to the stadium with a debt of 300m+ in a time where England was facing the worst recession in a long long time. No one predicted that we would not be able to sell the Highbury apartments, and despite that everyone in the club thought we would at least be able to buy without selling but that was not the case.

Coming to the players

This is the strongest team Arsene built in relation to his project

-------------------------------Szczesny--------------------------------------

Sagna---------------Toure----------------Koscielny---------------Cole

---------------------Wilshere----------Flamini-------------------------------

Walcott----------------------------Fabregas---------------------------Rosicky(pre)

-------------------------------Van persie--------------------------------------

Cost = less than 40m in total

Subs: Eduardo, Adebayor, Nasri, Vermaelen, Hleb, Clichy, Song

Others : Oxlade, Gibbs, Ramsey, Jenkinson, Diaby, Bendtner, Djourou, Aliadiere, Coquelin.

Would anyone not say he built one of the best squad in the country but was let down by the players and because we had to sell to not get even more in debt ?

It wasn't Arsene's fault Eduardo broke his leg, it wasn't his fault Ramsey broke his leg, Diaby broke his ankle.

It wasn't his fault Nasri sold out, Fabregas sold out, Van persie, Adebayor, Flamini, Hleb, Cole, Clichy, Kolo, Song.

It wasn't his fault we couldn't offer the wages Chelsea could.

The project didn't fail because of Arsene. He isn't faultless, he made a mistake trusting in crap like Almunia or selling the experienced too early. But to blame him entirely is a joke and a lie.

by RedOranje Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:07 pm

This article seems pertinent to the current discussion:

While Fans Argue About Money and Wenger, What Happened To Arsenal's Bright Young Players
By Bobby McMahon

The League Cup (presently known as the Capitol One Cup) has been a source of bitter disappointment for Arsenal over the last two years. In 2011 they lost in the final to Birmingham City who scored in the final minute and this season they lost on a penalty kick decider to League Two side Bradford City. (Bradford made it all the way to the final only to lose 5-0 to Swansea on Sunday.)

It doesn’t seem so long-ago that the League Cup was a regular showcase for young Arsenal talent. The conventional wisdom held that the Arsenal future was bright on account of a seemingly endless line of impressive young players that Arsene Wenger blooded in the competition.

And the results were quite impressive;

2003/04 – semi-finals to Middlesbrough (winners)

2004/05 – quarter-finals to Manchester United

2005/06 – semi-finals to Wigan

2006/07 – final to Chelsea

2007/08 – semi-finals to Tottenham Hotspur (winners)

2008/09 – quarter-finals to Burnley

2009/10 – quarter-finals to Manchester City

2010/11 – final to Birmingham City

2011/12 – quarter-finals to Manchester City

2012/13 – quarter-finals to Bradford City

But as Arsenal’s relationship with silverware has grown ever more distant the narrative surrounding Wenger and Arsenal has become almost singularly focused on money and whether or not enough of it has either been made available to the manager or spent.

Something that has not been discussed is how so many of Arsenal’s bright young things have fallen by the wayside. Rather than stocking the side with top quality talent, more often than not Arsenal has been the feeder side for lesser sides.

A look back over the last ten seasons provided an extensive list of young players (under 20 at the time and no doubt some will have been missed) who appeared for Arsenal in the League Cup since 2004.

Here is the list (with the present age) and where they are now.

Fresh Pastures (31 players)

Alexander Song (25): sold to Barcelona last summer for $25M

Armand Traore (23): sold to Queens Park Rangers

Arturo Lupoli (25): is with Grosseto in Italy’s Serie B

Carlos Vela (24): sold to Real Sociedad of La Liga last summer but there is believed to be an Arsenal buy-back clause of $6M

Cesc Fabregas(25): sold to Barcelona in the summer of 2011 for $48M

Danny Karbassiyoon (28): has not played professionally since 2006, and works for Arsenal as a scout in North America

David Bentley (28): is now with Spurs via Blackburn and a number of loan moves.

Emmanuel Eboué (29): sold to Galatasaray for $2M

Fran Merida (23): plays for Atletico Paranaense in Brazil

Frankie Simek (28): left Arsenal in 2005 and after five years with Sheffield Wednesday he is now with Carlisle United.

Gael Clichy (27): sold to Manchester City in 2011 for $7M

Gavin Hoyte (22): plays for Dagenham and Redbridge

Graham Stack (31): is a goalkeeper who plays with Barnet of League Two.

Havard Nordtveit (22): plays for Borussia Monchengladbach

Jay Simpson (24): on loan at Millwall from Hull City

Jay Emmanuel-Thomas (22): plays for Ipswich Town

Jérémie Aliadière (29): plays for Lorient

Justin Hoyte (28): plays for Middlesbrough in the Championship

Henri Lansbury (22): plays for Nottingham Forest

Kerrea Gilbert (26): without a club after playing for Shamrock Rovers in 2012

Mark Randall (23): now plays for Chesterfield

Mathieu Flamini (29); left at the end of his Arsenal contract and signed with AC Milan.

Ólafur Ingi Skúlason (29): now plays for Zulte Waragem in Belgium.

Oğuzhan Özyakup (20): now plays for Besiktas

Paul Rodgers (23): now plays for Billericay Town (Conference South)

Patrick Cregg (27): after being released by Arsenal he headed for Scotland and is with St. Johnstone, his fifth Scottish club.

Philippe Senderos (28): plays for Fulham

Quincy Owusu-Abeyie (26): plays for Panathiniakos

Ryan Smith (26): plays for Skoda Xanthi in Greece after a spell with Sporting KC of MLS

Rene Steer (23); now turns out for St. Neots Town (Premier Division – Southern Football League)

Sebastian Larsson (27): plays for Sunderland after a spell with Birmingham City

On Loan (4 players)

Emmanuel Frimpong (21): on loan at Fulham

Denilson (25): on loan at Sao Paulo in Brazil

Nicolas Bendtner (25): on loan at Juventus

Johann Djourou (26): on loan at Hannover ’96 of the Bundesliga

With Arsenal – on the cusp (9 players)

Craig Eastmond (22): returned to Arsenal after a loan spell at Colchester and recovering from injury

Jernade Meade (20)

Ignasi Miquel (20): makes infrequent appearances in the first team squad

Lukasz Fabianski (27): goalkeeper recovering from a long-term injury

Nicholas Yennaris (19)

Sanchez Watt (22): also injured while on loan at Colchester and returned to Arsenal.

Serge Gnabry (17): signed in summer of 2011

Thomas Eisfeld (20): signed in summer of 2012

Vito Mannone (25): one of Arsenal’s back up goalkeepers

Arsenal First Team Squad (7 players)

Aaron Ramsey (22): suffered an horrendous leg break and missed almost all of the 2011/12 season

Francis Coquelin (22): in Arsenal first team squad as a utility defender/midfielder

Jack Wilshere (21): enormous pressure and expectations but he does seem to have all that is needed and just signed a 5 year contract

Kieran Gibbs (23): seems a bit brittle and injury prone but on the edge of becoming an excellent full back

Theo Walcott (24): will he or won’t he? – Walcott finally signed a new and lucrative contract in January and avoided Arsenal losing him on a Bosman transfer this summer

Alex Oxlade Chamberlain (19): signed from Southampton in the summer of 2011. Progress has stalled this season.

Wojciech Szczęsny (22): goalkeeper who if he was as good as he thinks would be as twice as good as anyone else.

Now it could be argued that Arsenal’s turnover of young players is no greater than other clubs. The only difference being that Arsenal gave them a look in the first team before moving on while at other clubs that chance might never have been granted in the first place.

But it does pose a legitimate question as to whether or not Arsenal’s reputation of developing young players has been overblown. It also suggests that teams that constantly talk of producing their own world class talent in order to balance the books and stay onside of Financial Fair Play regulations may find it more difficult than they think.

For Arsenal fans – anyone who got away that you think didn’t get a fair chance? Any of the players on loan who you think might be able to return and contribute? Who has stayed around too long and just needs to be sold?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/bobbymcmahon/2013/02/24/while-fans-argue-about-money-and-wenger-what-happened-to-arsenals-bright-young-players/4/

by Jay29 Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:59 pm

A lot of those players were never good enough, even when shining in the Carling Cup. And some players, no matter talented, just don't work out for whatever reason; the likes of Bentley and Vela come to mind. Very few of those players have gone on to forge decent careers after leaving Arsenal.

Funnily enough, a lot of the successful kids weren't even produced by us. Cesc was a Barcelona product no matter how many fans convince themselves he was ours - all we did was built on an excellent foundation. Song came from Bastia. Ramsey was 17 when we signed him from Cardiff. Oxlade-Chamberlain and Walcott were both Southampton products. Coquelin was a Lens product, iirc.

Truthfully, Arsenal have never really produced good youngsters. They just had good scouts who were able to spot talents from around the world. We still do it now, with the likes of Bellerin and Toral being from Barcelona, Olsson being from a Swedish club, Eisfeld from Dortmund and Gnabry from Stuttgart. The only decent kids Arsenal have in their U21/U18 squads they have produced themselves are Ormonde-Ottewill and Chuba Akpom.

A few years ago, we might have seen these guys playing in the League Cup, but there places have been taken by fringe players who rarely play in the first team for one reason or another.

As far as Wenger's project with young players is concerned, it hasn't worked out as he hoped. However, it was an ambitious project from the start. How young players develop is incredibly unpredictable and quite often only two or three from a whole batch will ever break through and be consistent first team players. If the objective was to have decent enough young players to fill in the gaps while Arsenal's finances stabilised after the stadium move, then he's actually succeeded, to an extent. But if it was to create a team that couple compete for years, then, well, it hasn't quite worked out.

by RedOranje Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:12 pm

That's sort of the point of that, though. You're basically just agreeing with McMahon's conclusions.

Also, that refutes Aleum's claims that Wenger ruined many of the youngsters by loaning them out/not giving them the proper chance at Arsenal.

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