Re: How the beautiful game has lost it's beauty

by Serge Gnabry Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:00 pm

Well, imo football has become even more professional and competitive with more well educated and developed players than ever before and that's why it's not that easy to shine anymore.

I just watched a few Bundesliga games from a few years ago and the league and the ball that is being played nowadays has improved so much.

More pressing, more tactics, less long balls, less playing back to the keeper, less high uncoordinated clearings straight into the air.

Same with the EPL. Not a lot kick & rush there.

So yes, I disagree with what you are saying. The fact that event he small clubs are so professional and extremely well coached these days and constantly press and press and press neutralized many things and makes it harder to dominate (except Barca Wink

).

by Lord Spencer Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:03 pm

Lord Hispano wrote:
Lord Spencer wrote:The irony, most of these teams improved simply because they raised their fitness and play defensive football.

You got it. And that's what makes it competitive.

Lord Spencer wrote:
And for each of these teams, I can name teams that were once feared and now are meh.
The point, do not look at single teams, but the overall trend. Look at the World Player awards, no real contenders outside of Messi and CR7 exist. Some take this as a signal of their dominance, while taking it as a signal of the lack of competition is the more logical approach.
You're forgeting Xavi and Iniesta. Either of them shold have had one by now.

If competition means that team can reach a final without winning any game, then no thank you. /troll

There have not been an increase in competition, just a change. Former competitive teams are no longer competitive, and new competitive teams are emerging.

You also did not answer the lack of competition in the Leagues.

And does the increase in competition compensate the decrease in quality.

(BTW, I am defending milanisti99's arguments, you are free to come to the milan section and discuss my own points)

As for the second point, Xavi and Iniesta are more the products of the tactics and not the talent (don't get me wrong, both are amazingly talented, but the system makes them better than what they are)

by windkick Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:08 pm

So, I'm guessing cause Serie A/Italian NT sucks that the rest of the world is sucking too? NO.

by Lord Awesome Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:12 pm

Lord Spencer wrote:
Lord Hispano wrote:
Lord Spencer wrote:The irony, most of these teams improved simply because they raised their fitness and play defensive football.

You got it. And that's what makes it competitive.

Lord Spencer wrote:
And for each of these teams, I can name teams that were once feared and now are meh.
The point, do not look at single teams, but the overall trend. Look at the World Player awards, no real contenders outside of Messi and CR7 exist. Some take this as a signal of their dominance, while taking it as a signal of the lack of competition is the more logical approach.
You're forgeting Xavi and Iniesta. Either of them shold have had one by now.

If competition means that team can reach a final without winning any game, then no thank you. /troll

That's only your preferance.

There have not been an increase in competition, just a change. Former competitive teams are no longer competitive, and new competitive teams are emerging.

So Brazil and Argentina and Italy are in a slump and Football isn't competitive. Nah, there are more than three countries here. Those three teams are still competitve, in my book just not as competitive as they used to be. I'll take the latter part of your statement, though.

You also did not answer the lack of competition in the Leagues.

I wasn't speaking about Club teams to begin with.

The rich win and the rest won't, sadly.

And does the increase in competition compensate the decrease in quality.

Hell yeah, it does. Wish this sort of thing would happen more often in Club Footbal, for example.

(BTW, I am defending milanisti99's arguments, you are free to come to the milan section and discuss my own points)

As for the second point, Xavi and Iniesta are more the products of the tactics and not the talent (don't get me wrong, both are amazingly talented, but the system makes them better than what they are)

This I agree with.

by Lord Spencer Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:12 pm

Serge Gnabry wrote:Well, imo football has become even more professional and competitive with more well educated and developed players than ever before and that's why it's not that easy to shine anymore.

I just watched a few Bundesliga games from a few years ago and the league and the ball that is being played nowadays has improved so much.

More pressing, more tactics, less long balls, less playing back to the keeper, less high uncoordinated clearings straight into the air.

Same with the EPL. Not a lot kick & rush there.

So yes, I disagree with what you are saying. The fact that event he small clubs are so professional and extremely well coached these days and constantly press and press and press neutralized many things and makes it harder to dominate (except Barca ).

Germany are by the far the exception to the trend, why?? Oh here comes the good part...........
.

.
.
.
.
.
.
BECAUSE THEY DID SOMETHING ABOUT IT, 10 years ago, they had a rude awakening and had to change the whole structure of the Bundesliga and the teams, and training, etc. You are reaping the efforts of that collective change.

Which exactly why more nations need to identify the trend, and counter it s Germany did. Spain might be doing well talent-wise, but a quick look at their debt problems, and their league, and you would understand the invisible foundations it stand upon.

I am not preaching a message of doom and gloom here, but the mistakes of the present needs to be identified to fix the for the future.

The EPL might not be as much hoof ball as it was before, but the state of things there is not getting any better. Gentlemen, the German model is by far the best solution to avoid what might become a real crisis.

by Lord Awesome Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:18 pm

Lord Spencer wrote:Gentlemen, the German model is by far the best solution to avoid what might become a real crisis.

Also agree with this. But have only one Superpower? That's the part I don't like.

by Lord Spencer Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:22 pm

Lord Hispano wrote:
Lord Spencer wrote:
Lord Hispano wrote:
Lord Spencer wrote:The irony, most of these teams improved simply because they raised their fitness and play defensive football.

You got it. And that's what makes it competitive.

Lord Spencer wrote:
And for each of these teams, I can name teams that were once feared and now are meh.
The point, do not look at single teams, but the overall trend. Look at the World Player awards, no real contenders outside of Messi and CR7 exist. Some take this as a signal of their dominance, while taking it as a signal of the lack of competition is the more logical approach.
You're forgeting Xavi and Iniesta. Either of them shold have had one by now.

If competition means that team can reach a final without winning any game, then no thank you. /troll

That's only your preferance.

So you would actually support a team that uses foul play to reach the penalties and win

There have not been an increase in competition, just a change. Former competitive teams are no longer competitive, and new competitive teams are emerging.

So Brazil and Argentina and Italy are in a slump and Football isn't competitive. Nah, there are more than three countries here. Those three teams are still competitve, in my book just not as competitive as they used to be. I'll take the latter part of your statement, though.

I did not in any way, shape, or form allude to the three nations you mentioned. I meant smaller nations that have been competitive in the past but are no longer are i.e; Austria, Hungary, Yugoslavia, Scotland, Belgium. These countries are simply being replaced by new ones, and those will be replaced by new ones in a decade or two

You also did not answer the lack of competition in the Leagues.

I wasn't speaking about Club teams to begin with.

The rich win and the rest won't, sadly.

Yes, but the argument at hand also alluded to club football as well as international football
And does the increase in competition compensate the decrease in quality.

Hell yeah, it does. Wish this sort of thing would happen more often in Club Footbal, for example.

Wouldn't it be better if those nations increased their quality as well, instead of relying on combativeness and fortitude, the German Bundesliga proves that competition and quality can both be ingrained in football, learning from ze Germans id key

(BTW, I am defending milanisti99's arguments, you are free to come to the milan section and discuss my own points)

As for the second point, Xavi and Iniesta are more the products of the tactics and not the talent (don't get me wrong, both are amazingly talented, but the system makes them better than what they are)

This I agree with.

Lol at the battle of the Lords

by Lord Spencer Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:24 pm

Lord Hispano wrote:
Lord Spencer wrote:Gentlemen, the German model is by far the best solution to avoid what might become a real crisis.

Also agree with this. But have only one Superpower? That's the part I don't like.

Actually, inside the Bundesliga, you have about four teams or six who have the fan base to match Bayren. Bayren are only bigger as an international brand, which the other teams are working on (would take 10 years though).

by Lord Awesome Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:32 pm

Lord Spencer wrote:

So Brazil and Argentina and Italy are in a slump and Football isn't competitive. Nah, there are more than three countries here. Those three teams are still competitve, in my book just not as competitive as they used to be. I'll take the latter part of your statement, though.

I did not in any way, shape, or form allude to the three nations you mentioned. I meant smaller nations that have been competitive in the past but are no longer are i.e; Austria, Hungary, Yugoslavia, Scotland, Belgium. These countries are simply being replaced by new ones, and those will be replaced by new ones in a decade or two
I actually consider most of those bar Hungary competitive. Noone's really replacing them.

You also did not answer the lack of competition in the Leagues.

I wasn't speaking about Club teams to begin with.

The rich win and the rest won't, sadly.

Yes, but the argument at hand also alluded to club football as well as international football

At club level, I'd rather have what the Americas have. Equality.

And does the increase in competition compensate the decrease in quality.

Hell yeah, it does. Wish this sort of thing would happen more often in Club Footbal, for example.

Wouldn't it be better if those nations increased their quality as well, instead of relying on combativeness and fortitude, the German Bundesliga proves that competition and quality can both be ingrained in football, learning from ze Germans id key

What's wrong with Combativeness and Fortitude?

(BTW, I am defending milanisti99's arguments, you are free to come to the milan section and discuss my own points)

As for the second point, Xavi and Iniesta are more the products of the tactics and not the talent (don't get me wrong, both are amazingly talented, but the system makes them better than what they are)

This I agree with.

[/quote]

Lol at the battle of the Lords[/quote]

Hey that's true, huh. Laughing

by Lord Spencer Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:40 pm

Yugoslavia split up an a lot of people are dead :coffee:

But I am sure you meant the nations that came after it (Croatia and Serbia being the semi-competitive ones) so no worries

(I wish I can put a funny GIF but I suck at the internet so here is a funny picture)
How the beautiful game has lost it's beauty - Page 2 Funny-dog

How the beautiful game has lost it's beauty - Page 2 Funny-dog

by Lord Awesome Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:43 pm

Yep. You got it.

I'll drop it. Laughing

How the beautiful game has lost it's beauty - Page 2 Haha-LOL

by vivabarca38 Fri Jul 22, 2011 8:22 pm

people think that because tactics are much better now and less goals are scored

by Ali Fri Jul 22, 2011 9:10 pm

Hollands youth is uninspiring ?

georginio wijnaldum
Ozyakup
Afellay
Elia
Wiel
Krul
Luuk De Jong
Fer

by Eivindo Fri Jul 22, 2011 10:23 pm

Adit wrote:Only parts i agree are,use of plastic balls and over influence of athletism in modern game.I dont agree with the talent part,spain has just produced their most talented crop of players.Just because italian player production is shit atm doesnt mean whole world is not producing enough talents.

unfortunately, its true...

by jibers Fri Jul 22, 2011 10:25 pm

I agree with this completely. I have been watching football regularly since 1984, and this is the worst period that I can remember. Before in the past football was less to do with tactics and more to do with individuality. This I am afraid is the natural progression of football.

When people realised that football was potentially lucrative, more and morte moneyare being invested in football clubs,meaning that managers are more reactive than expressive tactically as they do not want to take any risks, so football has become a morew collective game at the expense of this individuality.

The 2010 World Cup sums up my point quite nicely. It was boring, lacked passion and was tactical as teams tried to stifel each other from playing rather than try and go for a win. That is the way football is today. Prevent defeat comes first before winning. Spain summed up the world cup for me, with their keep possession mentality, they monopolise the ball. Cruyffs visiopn was to promote attacking football, but on the biggest stage, the idea of 'tiki taka' was bastardised to avoid defeat rather than attack. This might be sligtly harsh as they were always playing against packed defenses, but that is my point.

The jabulani ball also symbolises todays football, commercial and synthetic. Diego Forlan was the only player I saw score a free kick in open play. The technical ability of today's footballers has dropped dramatically. You then watch maradona in training mastering the Jabulani like it was nothing, then you hear footballers coming out to complain. This is slightly harsh as I am using arguably the greatest footballer to judge the players of today, but you get my point.

You cannot blame managers, so many people are getting fired in todays games for not producing 'amazing' results. It certainly isn't helped by the amount of overseas investors pouring their moneys into foreign clubs, demanding results immediately, meaning there is so much pressure to win that tactical innovation is stifled. In today's current atmosphere, Cruyff, Rinus Michels and even Sir Alex Ferguson would probably not have had a job for more than 2 season. Hell Louis Van gaal is the last great coach of the old era and he has been fired from Bayern, even after achieving a double the season before. Ancelotti, one of the best coaches in Europe has also be fired from Chelsea after winning a double the season before.

With all this pressureI always wonder how stupid people mus be to come out and say teams should invest in youth. The way football is going I don't see that happenening. Noone should use Barcelona as an example. They have only found this success in their youth system after almost 15 years. Who has that time?

How many outstanding footballers are there in the world today? Messi? That's it pretty much. The standard of individual footballers has dropped. The fall of Series A has also contributed to this as well. Jose Mourinho is the coach that mostly sums up this era's football. People that complain that he is a defensive coach should get a grip, he is the product of the idea I talked about before, avoding defeat comes first above trying to win. He is the product of today's philosophy.

My Uncle, who has been watching football since 1964 said this is the worst era of football he has ever seen. As footall has moved from indiviuality to tactics, players like Nani are being put on the bench for players like Park. Is there a balance between tactics and individuality? We will have to wait and see, because currently, no team has found the right balance, and I see football going into a rut for the next 20 years.

by Lex Fri Jul 22, 2011 11:31 pm

I wouldn't exactly call Afellay a youth, he's 25. I'm 22 and I'm not considered a youth Sad

by Ganso Fri Jul 22, 2011 11:58 pm

wut,affelay 25?

damn,i thought he was in his very early 20s.Going to barca wasnt a very good move for him imo.

by justdoit_ Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:05 am

ali8775 wrote:Hollands youth is uninspiring ?

georginio wijnaldum
Ozyakup
Afellay
Elia
Wiel
Krul
Luuk De Jong
Fer

That list excites you when it comes to Holland's future in comparison to what we already know the Germans and Spaniards have coming of age? Obviously I'm not predicting any sort of grand implosion for Holland's tried-and-proven national system, but I'm afraid this list doesn't evoke the near the same emotions for me.

by zarola Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:08 am

Cannavaro and Nesta were so good at a young age because their coaches actually played them. If Lippi played Ranocchia and Bonucci and Balotelli and Rossi we wouldnt be having this problem with inexperienced players. Talent isnt lacking, experience is. And it is only lacking in Italians mainly, it's not a worldwide crisis. Look at Germany Spain and Netherlands, theyre good because their coaches started them at a young age.

Italy didnt win the world cup the first year with their generations of players, and they didnt win euro, but then they won the wc. You win, your players are around 28, you keep a couple of players then you move onto the next generations of twenty year olds... Lippi didnt do that and now we're paying for it. Half of our next generation playrrs will be 32 with no wc experience.

by Ali Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:09 am

Lex wrote:I wouldn't exactly call Afellay a youth, he's 25. I'm 22 and I'm not considered a youth

I didn't mean youth as like the u-23 I meant as the future, Afellay is the future atm

by Ali Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:11 am

justdoit_ wrote:
ali8775 wrote:Hollands youth is uninspiring ?

georginio wijnaldum
Ozyakup
Afellay
Elia
Wiel
Krul
Luuk De Jong
Fer
That list excites you when it comes to Holland's future in comparison to what we already know the Germans and Spaniards have coming of age? Obviously I'm not predicting any sort of grand implosion for Holland's tried-and-proven national system, but I'm afraid this list doesn't evoke the near the same emotions for me.

Spaniards? yes it does tbh lol

the Germans look the brightest,they pail in comparison to it ofcourse ( the dutch to the german )

by maverick Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:44 am

No it hasnt. Have you seen Barcelona play

by jibers Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:59 am

maverick wrote:No it hasnt. Have you seen Barcelona play

You my friend are brain dead.

by maverick Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:03 am

jibers wrote:
maverick wrote:No it hasnt. Have you seen Barcelona play

You my friend are brain dead.

anybody who doesn't see the beauty of barca's passing is braindead

by Lex Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:05 am

maverick wrote:anybody who doesn't see the beauty of barca's passing is braindead

Then consider 2/3 of this forum Stoke fans from here on out

by jibers Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:39 am

maverick wrote:
jibers wrote:
maverick wrote:No it hasnt. Have you seen Barcelona play

You my friend are brain dead.

anybody who doesn't see the beauty of barca's passing is braindead

Passiing is nice but like van gaals ajax i find most of barcas matches boring. They are to tactical. Messi si the only player allowed to completely express himself, they are to restricted by their ability to live without the ball. Go and watch van gaals ajax, a bit of history lesson for you son. Or go and watch the 1974 world cup. They are a great technical side, but most of theri matches are boring. I just watch waiting for messi to do something. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Passing itself isn't beautiful, it's combinatiosn that make it beautiful. When barca has the ball for like 63 minutes and they only attempt a few combinations, that is BORING. Great tactic, but it certainly isn't pleasing on the eye.

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