EURO 2020 - Group D

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Which teams will go through ? ( Choose 2, please)

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Post by El Gunner Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:18 am

am i seeing this right? prominent Donkey FC member @RealGunner wants to go with Sancho as a RWB with Mount as an 8 midfield cover Laughing Shocked

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Post by Art Morte Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:02 am

@Kaladin wrote:Its a shame because England really do have a fantastic set of players, maybe even the best in years.


That's going a bit far.

Foden and Mount are decent, but based on this evidence they're not ready to be the creative force behind England's attacks. Need another couple of years. Mount especially looked lost out there.

None of the attacking players are clicking so far, with Kane looking like a lower league jobber out there. And don't get me started on England's defence, it's looking ready to be picked apart by the first good team. Stones and Mings (and Rice) were giving just way too much space for Scotland's players to receive the ball at the edge of the penalty area, better players are going to make England pay for such an unassertive defence.
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Post by Robespierre Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:16 am

About criticism towards Southgate ... The point is : are there good managers at Euro2020 ?

Mancini looks like a scientist compared to most of manager, and in fact Italy is the NT where the coach's job is generating the highest surplus value

Probably it's the only one that might still manage a good club
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Post by El Gunner Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:48 am

England should have hired Wenger by now to try and get a Euros or WC with this current crop of promising talent
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Post by rincon Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:59 am

@Robespierre wrote:About criticism towards Southgate ... The point is : are there good managers at Euro2020 ?

Mancini looks like a scientist compared to most of manager, and in fact Italy is the NT where the coach's job is generating the highest surplus value

Probably it's the only one that might still manage a good club

Deschamps might be very old fashioned but he was very successful at club and nt level.

Shevchenko is a very interesting one imo, makes Ukraine relevant and entertaining.

Luis Enrique was good for Barca. Martinez is good. Fernando Santos has won 2 euros and a nations league with underdogs. Etc. There are some fine ones.

I'd say Mancini is the best, followed by Deschamps. We saw how good Conte looked in the last euros compared to other coaches, the coaching level is a bit lower than with top clubs.
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Post by M99 Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:26 pm

There is too much money in club football in comparison to international football right now. Before you had Champions League winners like Lippi, Beckenbauer, Capello, Del Bosque coaching teams. In this tournament we have Enrique who has been very unconvincing in club level since MSN carried him and Hansi Flick recently got hired and that had more to do with his history with the German NT making him an easy fit.

Just look at how well Koeman was doing with the Dutch and then he jumped ship the instant Barca came calling. His replacement ended up being statistically the worst coach in PL history and Inter Milan legend Frank De Boer. Conte was doing well with Italy and then the Chelsea offer came, his replacement was a provinciale fraud who couldn't get the team to the World Cup. I don't rate Mancini but he looks leagues above all the managers in this tournament which says a lot.

I don't think we'll ever see the likes of Pep, Mou, Tuchel coaching national teams when they get paid so much higher in clubs. Maybe at the end of their careers so they can add international trophies to their bucket list. We'll see coaches like Mancini whose value to clubs are significantly lower than what it was years ago. Mind you Mourinho is on that path Laughing
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Post by BarcaLearning Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:15 pm

Regarding coaches Im not sure what to make of them after this Portugal showing vs Germany. The guy goes from winning the Euro to being 'outclassed' by Low's formation in 2021 when Low has been pretty crap for a long while? Lol?
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Post by Robespierre Sun Jun 20, 2021 10:47 am

@M99 wrote:There is too much money in club football in comparison to international football right now. Before you had Champions League winners like Lippi, Beckenbauer, Capello, Del Bosque coaching teams. In this tournament we have Enrique who has been very unconvincing in club level since MSN carried him and Hansi Flick recently got hired and that had more to do with his history with the German NT making him an easy fit.

Just look at how well Koeman was doing with the Dutch and then he jumped ship the instant Barca came calling. His replacement ended up being statistically the worst coach in PL history and Inter Milan legend Frank De Boer. Conte was doing well with Italy and then the Chelsea offer came, his replacement was a provinciale fraud who couldn't get the team to the World Cup. I don't rate Mancini but he looks leagues above all the managers in this tournament which says a lot.

I don't think we'll ever see the likes of Pep, Mou, Tuchel coaching national teams when they get paid so much higher in clubs. Maybe at the end of their careers so they can add international trophies to their bucket list. We'll see coaches like Mancini whose value to clubs are significantly lower than what it was years ago. Mind you Mourinho is on that path Laughing

Yes it was not weird Mancini at Italy, not at all, rather it was a logical step because his career was declined hardly .
His return at Inter was unsuccessful , Galatasaray period was not relevant, and his last club was Zenit and he finished 5th in Russian league .
Done for a club probably, ready for a different job as leading a NT

Conte as manager for Italy NT in 2016 was a bizzarre move conversely (moreover at that time not even UEFA Nations league exsisted. Why do I say this ? Because at least it make the NT's job mostly " daily", not same but closer to a manager club. Some manager suffer idea to not coach every day. Conte Is this . Mancini not .)

I mean Conte was  manager in his prime who chooses to lead a NT (not even particulary strong at that time ) , but Conte Is enigmatic at times.
I don't believe we'll see other prime managers to do It.

I remember old rumours about Simeone ready to lead Argentina .. yeah, not even accepted to it with Messi. Too much difference of salary , mainly, but not only this imo
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Post by Arquitecto Sun Jun 20, 2021 7:17 pm

Gareth Southgate is a fucking trash coach. How he is still allowed to lead this talented team is beyond me.

He is clueless and outside of some work with youth he has had basically no impressive tenure in any team he has coached.
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Post by Robespierre Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:07 pm

Reason is   : he's English

Should you find a English manager available to job who's better than him

No one loves particulary to give the NT job to foreign managers, and England have  recent unsucessful experience as Capello


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Post by VivaStPauli Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:07 pm

The English Löw?
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Post by Kaladin Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:52 pm

Funnily enough, i think Rodgers would be the most suitable candidate for this England squad.

However, i don't think he'll leave Leicester any time soon

And sadly this Southgate stint would propel him as a prime candidate for the bottom 10 clubs in the first division, despite having nothing to show for it
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Post by Hapless_Hans Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:57 pm

@VivaStPauli wrote:The English Löw?


I mean I hate Löw as much as the next guy, if not more, but let's not be completely silly
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Post by Superstone Mariomintsch Sun Jun 20, 2021 9:18 pm

@Hapless_Hans wrote:
@VivaStPauli wrote:The English Löw?


I mean I hate Löw as much as the next guy, if not more, but let's not be completely silly

Can you please elaborate on this, Mister Hans? Post 2018 I get it, but prior to that he seemed to have been universally hated by Germans. 1 Winner, 1 Runner-up, 3 Semifinalist in 6 major tournaments. Isn't it good enough? And Germany also played attractive football. Germany in 2002 certainly didn't play attractive in my eyes. Were Germany prior to that play attractively?

And if you hate him, which national team manager did you like. Klinsmann, Voller, Ribbeck, Vogts, or Der Kaiser?
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Post by VivaStPauli Sun Jun 20, 2021 9:22 pm

Völler and the Kaiser both did a great job.
Löw was okay as long as he still had Flick as his co-trainer, and once Flick left he started to lose the plot.
(Though arguable Löw already did a bunch of crazy shit like playing Trochowski in 2010, moving Kroos to LM in 2012, trying to play a back 3 in 2018... I don't really have any complaints about 2016 or 2008)
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Post by The Franchise Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:58 am

England Laughing I dont know even how to react.

I was on the London Underground on my home from work on Saturday afternoon. Suddenly a group of maybe 12 Scottish fans jumped on my carriage, the next 3 stops until I got off was a mix of drunken sing songs, the Scottish National Anthem, repeated attempts to throw a guy off the train at each station and one nearly blacked out guy yelling "Cockfosters, why would you name a station that?". In summary, London isnt blue or red, its Scottish now and I was wondering if there was any way I could join in the fun they were having.

On the game. Southgate is awful, to nobody's surprise.

He is legitimately relying on a set peice goal to steal games despite the offensive talent he has.

I have never really given a s--t how England perform, not patriotic in that way despite being born here. But I cant help but pay attention to the nonsense this team consistently produces.

I wont even get into the team selection that deeply, the overall "system" in English terms, is utter wank.

Every single tournament is the same, an England team who dont value the midfield properly (the lack of Scholes, Carrick and disrespect Hargreaves received is proof of this trend) and again the same issue. Phillips is a really good young 6, he has obviously learnt well from Bielsa and has the quality with the ball aswell as the movement in and out of possession in any version of a single pivot system. Yet, he is being used as a midfield runner while Rice, who doesnt play in a side who controls game, doesnt have the type of passing Phillips has and just isnt the same level of player, plain and simple.

Worse still, they play this classic 6 (Rice), 8 (Phillips) and 10 (Mount) tilted more to the left due to Mount, while Sterling offers depth, or drops wide for the 3rd man run of Shaw (only seen that once). It sounds reasonable on paper outside The Rice-Phillips thing, but there is zero rotational movements, there is no understanding that if player x has the ball in position A, player y and z need to move here and here. It leads to this static, slow, uncoordinated ball possession.

Scotland defended very well, the 532 was excellent. The 5 stayed back at all times defensively, never jumped up to press Shaw or James, as the midfield 3 covered the entire width of the field. Because England have no ideas, it was easy for the 3 to do that, whereas usually its impossible because of better movements to manipulate those 3.

In this game, the fullbacks were the key. They were the free men. They should have been making far more runs without the ball, which opens up spaces for Foden/Grealish or Sterling to play in.

By the end, I was rooting for Scotland to get a point. They deserved it and could have stolen all 3.

I believe Grealish, Bellingham and Sancho should all be in this team, but at this stage in the game (as in Southgate tenure) I am not even sure it will make the difference. I think they will go as far as the draw takes them, once they face a truly good side it is game over.
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Post by Superstone Mariomintsch Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:21 pm

@VivaStPauli wrote:Völler and the Kaiser both did a great job.
Löw was okay as long as he still had Flick as his co-trainer, and once Flick left he started to lose the plot.
(Though arguable Löw already did a bunch of crazy shit like playing Trochowski in 2010, moving Kroos to LM in 2012, trying to play a back 3 in 2018... I don't really have any complaints about 2016 or 2008)

Thank you for answering. So I guess it's due to his strange decisions in the important moments, which later led to what somehow felt as a missed opportunity.
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Post by Jay29 Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:43 pm

In this game, the fullbacks were the key. They were the free men. They should have been making far more runs without the ball, which opens up spaces for Foden/Grealish or Sterling to play in.

This just reminded me of Southgate's bizarre fear of offensive full-backs.

The moment Alexander-Arnold's form slipped he was dropped from the squad, and it felt like Southgate's arm had be to twisted to include him in the Euros squad. TAA's defending was apparently his top concern, nevermind him being one of the best attacking full-backs in Europe. He was so concerned about this he switched back to a 3-4-3 in qualifying.

It'd be one thing to start Walker at right back and have a more offensive left back, but even that's too adventurous for him. He'd rather play Trippier at left back instead.

Then when he does start Shaw and James, we barely see them get forward and do what they do best. Meanwhile, Wan-Bissaka, a player who seems right up Southgate's alley, is sitting at home. scratch

This, of course, is the same guy who thought Grealish would be in direct competition with Sterling and Rashford as an attacker and didn't select him on that basis.


Last edited by Jay29 on Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:12 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by RealGunner Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:52 pm

He is trying to shithouse his way to the trophy. That's the only way he knows.

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Post by Hapless_Hans Mon Jun 21, 2021 9:01 pm

@Superstone Mariomintsch wrote:
@Hapless_Hans wrote:
@VivaStPauli wrote:The English Löw?


I mean I hate Löw as much as the next guy, if not more, but let's not be completely silly

Can you please elaborate on this, Mister Hans? Post 2018 I get it, but prior to that he seemed to have been universally hated by Germans. 1 Winner, 1 Runner-up, 3 Semifinalist in 6 major tournaments. Isn't it good enough? And Germany also played attractive football. Germany in 2002 certainly didn't play attractive in my eyes. Were Germany prior to that play attractively?

And if you hate him, which national team manager did you like. Klinsmann, Voller, Ribbeck, Vogts, or Der Kaiser?


No, you are right. Germany didn't play more attractive before, and I certainly don't like any of Klinsmann, Völler or Ribbeck better.
I generally have a 75% spiteful relation to the complex that is the German National Team and as such I have no problem hating Löw despite conceding that over the years, his Germany played some good stuff. The Confed Cup for example, the Euros 2016 were good.

But then I despise him already for the way he talks and for his notorious, inacceptalbe fringe haircut.

All I want is for him to get kidnapped for 45 minutes and violently be coiffeured into a kind of greyish black version of the haircut Yolandi from the Aantwoord is sporting.
Then I'll be happy to watch the remaining games with him as manager.

But probably he's got a swastika tattooed on his forehead or something
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Post by Superstone Mariomintsch Mon Jun 21, 2021 9:36 pm

@Hapless_Hans wrote:
@Superstone Mariomintsch wrote:
@Hapless_Hans wrote:

I mean I hate Löw as much as the next guy, if not more, but let's not be completely silly

Can you please elaborate on this, Mister Hans? Post 2018 I get it, but prior to that he seemed to have been universally hated by Germans. 1 Winner, 1 Runner-up, 3 Semifinalist in 6 major tournaments. Isn't it good enough? And Germany also played attractive football. Germany in 2002 certainly didn't play attractive in my eyes. Were Germany prior to that play attractively?

And if you hate him, which national team manager did you like. Klinsmann, Voller, Ribbeck, Vogts, or Der Kaiser?


No, you are right. Germany didn't play more attractive before, and I certainly don't like any of Klinsmann, Völler or Ribbeck better.
I generally have a 75% spiteful relation to the complex that is the German National Team and as such I have no problem hating Löw despite conceding that over the years, his Germany played some good stuff. The Confed Cup for example, the Euros 2016 were good.

But then I despise him already for the way he talks and for his notorious, inacceptalbe fringe haircut.

All I want is for him to get kidnapped for 45 minutes and violently be coiffeured into a kind of greyish black version of the haircut Yolandi from the Aantwoord is sporting.
Then I'll be happy to watch the remaining games with him as manager.

But probably he's got a swastika tattooed on his forehead or something

I had to look up for the bolded part rofl

I see, so over the years his Germany did play some good stuff in certain times, but how he talks and his haircut is annoying. Understandable, his haircut is indeed unique I guess hmm
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Post by Hapless_Hans Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:07 pm

It's not just me, I'm sure the players have been sick and tired of his obnoxious hair and silly diction for a long time
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Post by Jay29 Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:13 pm

England and Czech Republic have now qualified without having to play the final game. Which means tomorrow's game is going to be an "after you" special to avoid France/Portugal/Germany in the last 16.

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Post by VivaStPauli Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:14 pm

@Hapless_Hans wrote:It's not just me, I'm sure the players have been sick and tired of his obnoxious hair and silly diction for a long time

I'm with you here, I cannot, I refuse to, believe that any German can listen to that man speak for more than twelve seconds without contemplating murder, or suicide.
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Post by El Gunner Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:46 pm

@Jay29 wrote:England and Czech Republic have now qualified without having to play the final game. Which means tomorrow's game is going to be an "after you" special to avoid France/Portugal/Germany in the last 16.

i don't see how though, because as you said "France/Portugal/Germany" - the final standings are still undecided
it's gunna be more of a free-hit game, with bench players getting game time, which may free up the players and make for an awesome once-off England game
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Post by rincon Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:54 pm

@El Gunner wrote:
@Jay29 wrote:England and Czech Republic have now qualified without having to play the final game. Which means tomorrow's game is going to be an "after you" special to avoid France/Portugal/Germany in the last 16.

i don't see how though, because as you said "France/Portugal/Germany" - the final standings are still undecided
it's gunna be more of a free-hit game, with bench players getting game time, which may free up the players and make for an awesome once-off England game

The only way for England to play a team from the group of death is to win the group.
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