Azerbaijan, the liberation of Karabakh

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Post by Arquitecto on Sat 17 Oct - 18:48:52

@Art Morte wrote:
@M99 wrote:Embarrassing thread. One guy spouting BS propaganda and others using it as an excuse to be bigoted and gets a free pass to hate on an entire religion.


A teacher got beheaded on a Parisian street yesterday for showing some Muhammed cartoons. There isn't another religion on the planet whose members act so violently in the name of their religion in the 21th century. I dislike all religions, but it's difficult not to hate on something like that.



Arty Im generally on your political stance of things if you've noticed but here is again an example of religion being used for political frontage and misused and bad context.

These are impressionable men who are accepted into cults or more so children bred to think this way and the fact of the matter is that Islam, theologically speaking, is against such acts.

Thus these are cherrypicked examples and the key is to eradicate extremism, not religion.

Speaking as an Agnostic here.

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Post by Babun on Sat 17 Oct - 19:33:36

@M99 wrote:
@Art Morte wrote:
@M99 wrote:Embarrassing thread. One guy spouting BS propaganda and others using it as an excuse to be bigoted and gets a free pass to hate on an entire religion.


A teacher got beheaded on a Parisian street yesterday for showing some Muhammed cartoons. There isn't another religion on the planet whose members act so violently in the name of their religion in the 21th century. I dislike all religions, but it's difficult not to hate on something like that.


Just the viewpoint I would expect from someone who thinks multicultural societies are bad and homogenous America is ideal.
You're derailing his point. Last time people were killing other people in the name of a religion was in 16th century (crusades). The only majour religion still killing people in the name of it remaining is islam, no questions about it. It means some or most of the leaders are in the middle ages with their thought process. They never developed further. Islam as a religion is no different than judaism or christianism to me, the only difference is the later separated the spiritual part (the actual belief) from the politics as much as possible. Political islam is the central focal point of the current religion.
@M99 wrote:I hate seeing and doing "but he did that, they did that" but look up the situation with Modi government backed Hindu extremism in India. Or what Israel has done to Palestine over years because their holy book says its their rightful land. Violence is everywhere, and there are no excuses for generalization or any form of discriminatory hate/bigotry.
A bunch of whataboutism quote: "They did wrong, too, at some point in the history or here and there so it's ok to kill people". Islam needs educated Mullahs with at least a degree in thelogy from the west to reinvent and move away the religion from the despotic rulers. Just so you know, to become a jew or catholic priest they need to become literate and to study. All the great islamic scholars from the 13th century were educated people in many ways, not someone random from a village proclaimed as spiritual leader with nothing to show for. That would be a move into the right direction. Stop deflecting criticism, no religion was ever perfect but judaism and christianism adapted to the new time while islam still remains in the middle ages and so the mentality of the people in those countries.
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Post by M99 on Sat 17 Oct - 20:09:03

Accusing me of deflection and what-aboutism when I already put a disclaimer Laughing You were all over the place doing that during the Floyd fallout and what I said now is not close to what you were posting then. His "point" on the murder in France has nothing to do with politics either.

I am fully aware of how people and political parties use Islam to commit murder, terrorism, and other crimes. My point was that does not give people a free pass to be bigoted and generalize and harbor hatred over an ENTIRE religion of more than a billion people. Btw don't spout BS on other religions not having anyone who commits murders in their name any more. Would have a lot of examples but I guess that would be deflection.
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Post by M99 on Sat 17 Oct - 20:20:58

Don't think I am blind to ugly side. I've seen firsthand how backward ass Mullahs use their influence to create generations of backward, hateful, bigoted people. I'm not guest07 who automatically supports every Islamic country and have a victim mentality.

A lot of Muslims who grew up in a post 9/11 world have this "us against the world" mentality and it amuses and irritates me so much. There is no grand Western+Israeli conspiracy to wipe out all Muslims. Saudi Arabia has billions of dollars worth of weapon deals with major Western countries like the US and they use that to bomb Yemen. Azerbaijan is buying weapons from Israel to kill Armenians. Erdogan is ready to kill all Kurds.

Its all politics at the end of the day. Religion is used as an agenda.
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Post by Nishankly on Sat 17 Oct - 21:35:39

@M99 wrote:

Its all politics at the end of the day. Religion is used as an agenda.


Remove the politics. Religion will find its way, always and always has done. Guest07 probably doesn't give shit about the Russian invasion in Georgia or Crimea because they aren't Muslim. He probably doesn't give a shit about Saudi on Yemens as well unless the sufferers are from the same sect or the weekly bomb blasts in Kabul.

Azerbaijan is the same issue, any one who takes 5 mins to read history would see the absolute horrors Armenians have suffered, so choosing sides in a basically ethnic war? in 2020? So yes, I will be bigoted against a religion and you can take that blanket and put on top of every religion.

There is no politics when it comes Armenia and Azerbaijan. Its ethnicity and has always been that throughout history. The only reason it has come to light much further is because a religion is apparently affected and it just adds to list because Hey! Very very different people have similar problems with this very religion right now in the past three decades.
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Post by Hapless_Hans on Sat 17 Oct - 23:03:38

@M99 wrote:Embarrassing thread. One guy spouting BS propaganda and others using it as an excuse to be bigoted and gets a free pass to hate on an entire religion.


Was wondering when you'd show up being all fragile and defensive

there was literally nothing bigotted or hateful said, at the moment of your post, whatsoever except for the IS links blizzard provided by @guest_07 along with him calling all Indians rapists

but there you are

why are you offended when Muslim extremists are criticized?
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Post by Nishankly on Sat 17 Oct - 23:30:46

@Art Morte wrote:
@M99 wrote:Embarrassing thread. One guy spouting BS propaganda and others using it as an excuse to be bigoted and gets a free pass to hate on an entire religion.


A teacher got beheaded on a Parisian street yesterday for showing some Muhammed cartoons. There isn't another religion on the planet whose members act so violently in the name of their religion in the 21th century. I dislike all religions, but it's difficult not to hate on something like that.


I mean if a street 40 kilometres from Paris is called a Parisian street in your local news then this is new to me as someone who lives in Paris. But anyways. (Obviously with you on the issue, just have a problem with the reporting where I am in agreement with M69 regarding politics)


Last edited by Nishankly on Sat 17 Oct - 23:40:41; edited 1 time in total
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Post by El Gunner on Sat 17 Oct - 23:40:36

the only good, reasonable and straight to the point responses and posts made in this thread has been by Arq, and Babun's first reply to guest's latest tirade of posts, only for his bigotry towards Islam clearly to shine through later in the last page Laughing
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Post by Babun on Sat 17 Oct - 23:54:06

@El Gunner wrote:the only good, reasonable and straight to the point responses and posts made in this thread has been by Arq, and Babun's first reply to guest's latest tirade of posts, only for his bigotry towards Islam clearly to shine through later in the last page Laughing

I've got nothing against islam as a religion and tried to separate it from the politics in my posts as much as possible. Anyone who believes it's ok to kill people because of a religion is a madman from the middle ages. Islam is a semitic religion like judaism and christianism at its core. The core is not to kill your next one among others. Even without religion, as a human being, there's no justification for killing someone you don't even know. People who argue like guest_07 are worse than sheep for me, the sheep has a purpose as a domestic animal in a cattle.
And yeah, islam is in a world wide crisis because its so called "leaders" like Saudi Arabia, Turkey (sunni part) and Iran (shia part) use the religion to justify their misdeeds. Any true muslim not protesting against those wrongdoings is a sheep because it goes against their beliefs (I read koran, the bible and tora at least). Most of the muslim world in the west or anywhere else don't say anything against, no feedback whatsoever. China doing what they do to Uigurs while the billion believers (according to M99) just watch from the sidelines is proof of that. Silence is usually the sign of agreement. This is where the prejudices come from. We think you guys aren't bothered, don't care so you share the same mentality even though it's not true for everyone like in the case of M99.
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Post by M99 on Sun 18 Oct - 0:17:45

@Hapless_Hans wrote:
@M99 wrote:Embarrassing thread. One guy spouting BS propaganda and others using it as an excuse to be bigoted and gets a free pass to hate on an entire religion.


Was wondering when you'd show up being all fragile and defensive

there was literally nothing bigotted or hateful said, at the moment of your post, whatsoever except for the IS links blizzard provided by @guest_07 along with him calling all Indians rapists

but there you are

why are you offended when Muslim extremists are criticized?


Sorry but generalizing the whole religion as always loving to play the victims, mocking it as the religion of peace, does not sit well with me. You can criticize extremism without resorting to that shit. When people do that with Jews because of what Israel does they are rightfully called out for anti-semitism. Thats not being fragile or defensive.

What the fuck are you implying when you say I'm offended when extremists are criticized? Show me one post where I defend extremism or get offended in GL history. Does that come from me hating on Unique because he said he wishes every Muslim in the world dies? I lost people close to me because they got killed in terrorist attacks so don't ever give that shit on me being offended about fundamentalism/extremism.

@babun kind of odd you bring up China. People do bring up a lot what they are doing to Uighurs. No one is powerful enough to do more than that. A much less powerful nation committed genocide against their Islamic minority (Myanmar) and still the worst they got was some stern "denouncements"

"We think you are not bothered" dude don't generalize and assume the worst. Muslims tend to be the one who suffer the most under fundamental regimes. People want change, sadly that will be not be achieved without revolutions and bloodshed.
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Post by The Demon of Carthage on Sun 18 Oct - 13:47:58

If I can offer my two cents here, I think both M99 and babun are having perfectly valid points, but their analyses are incomplete because they didn't try to see things from each other's perspective.

Let's begin with babun:

In my opinion, he's having a perfectly valid reaction, and if you could just try to see things from his perspective you would realize that there's nothing wrong with what he's saying. In order to do that, imagine you're a person who was born and raised in a tolerant, democratic and progressive country where religion is completely separated from the state and free speech is a fundamental right in their society. Imagine as well that the populace of this particular country is well-educated and any form of religious extremism has been greatly reduced to almost being nonexistent in comparison to Islam. Now, imagine after all that, you hear that a history teacher was decapitated in this day and age outside his secondary school in a Paris suburb on Friday after he showed a caricature of the prophet. Wouldn't your first reaction be: "WTF?!" I know mine would.

See the thing is, I know that Islam is not to blame here, but that's because I have lived my entire life in a Muslim country and have noticed firsthand that Islam is not exactly what drives those terrorists to do their heinous crimes. In other words, they would still do those crimes even if Islam didn't exist. But babun? How could he possibly know that? As far as he's concerned, even if most Muslims aren't terrorists, even if Islam is not to blame, the fact that terrorist attacks in the name of Islam keep on popping up will automatically make him conclude that Islam is to blame. Even if it's not directly, it's definitely indirectly. It's a perfectly rational thought to have and there's nothing bigoted about it. It's just that if you really want to know the truth, you have to go two or three layers deeper.

Now let's see things from M99's perspective:

Imagine you've lived or your parents lived in a repressive, dictatorial country where religious extremists exploits Islam and the Quran to radicalize and mobilize its violent adherents toward criminality and terrorism. Imagine you've watched people close to you die because of that. And imagine that in the media, you keep on hearing and reading about how Islam is the driving force behind all that. Wouldn't your first reaction be: "Why are they putting everybody in the same box? Why are they generalizing? I'm Muslim and I don't share those extreme views, why are they being so unfair to me? Can't they see that those crazy, deranged people don't represent Islam in any way and that the striking majorty of us are sane and good?" Again, it's a perfectly natural and rational reaction.


So who's right and who's wrong here? If you ask me, neither of you is wrong, but you didn't address the main point which is to try and figure out why religious terrorism seems to be more predominately common in Islam than almost any other religion in the 21st century (not including states).

All of you already know I'm from Tunisia, and if you don't know already, in 2017 roughly 6,000 Tunisians have left home to join the ranks of ISIS, the highest per capita rate in the world. It can't be because of Islam, do you know why? Because Tunisia is probably the least religious Muslim country in the world. I'm tempted to even say that Tunisia is only Muslim on paper. The striking majority of its people is completely westernized. So how come such a "westernized" country be behind such high volume of ISIS terrorists? If you take a closer look at all those terrorists, you'll realize they share a series of common traits:

1. Lack of education: and I'm not talking about school here. I'm talking about being well-educated enough to know right from wrong and not be easily influenced and ultimately brainwashed. So it's a combination of your upbringing coupled with the environment you grew up in. If you grow up in an intellectually modest neighborhood where everybody around you is either a criminal or not educated at all, chances are you'll grow up to be just like them. Those are the targets ISIS love to prey on because they can be easily derailed and controlled.

2. Radical by nature: This is what I mean it has nothing to do with Islam. Most of them had started being religious just a month prior to joining ISIS. However, they share the same bigoted, radical views ISIS has (men are superior to women, women have to cover themselves up, the government and the west is behind all the problems we have, ...). So imagine you're close to being an unthinking moron and then someone who shares the same bigoted views as you comes along and tells you that they agree with you completely, that you're way smarter than everybody else, that he can make your poor family financially well-off and that ISIS is where you belong. Some of them would definitely say yes to them.

3. Corruption: corruption is maybe everywhere, but Tunisia's elites are certainly the most corrupt people in the world, and their corruption has spawned into all branches of the government including the police itself. So imagine you're extremely poor and have no education after flunking out school, and every day you feel like the world is playing a practical joke on you. No one wants to hire you, and even the police treats you like an animal. Then a mysterious man comes along and tells you your government is behind all your problems and that he can give you all the tools to plot your revenge. Government corruption is definitely one of the main factors that radicalize the youth and make them resent anything and everything around them.

A couple months later, you find them terrorizing people and yelling "Allahou Akbar" and "fighting in the name if Islam", a religion they don't even know less than 0.1% of it.
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Post by Hapless_Hans on Sun 18 Oct - 14:27:28

@M99 wrote:
@Hapless_Hans wrote:
@M99 wrote:Embarrassing thread. One guy spouting BS propaganda and others using it as an excuse to be bigoted and gets a free pass to hate on an entire religion.


Was wondering when you'd show up being all fragile and defensive

there was literally nothing bigotted or hateful said, at the moment of your post, whatsoever except for the IS links blizzard provided by @guest_07 along with him calling all Indians rapists

but there you are

why are you offended when Muslim extremists are criticized?


Sorry but generalizing the whole religion as always loving to play the victims, mocking it as the religion of peace, does not sit well with me. You can criticize extremism without resorting to that shit. When people do that with Jews because of what Israel does they are rightfully called out for anti-semitism. Thats not being fragile or defensive.

What the fuck are you implying when you say I'm offended when extremists are criticized? Show me one post where I defend extremism or get offended in GL history.


I was just trying out the fragility argumentation in this context to see how it works, admittedly not a proper equivalence. Mixed results, I guess.
And look, I perfectly understand you're beyond sick and tired of constant tired islamophobe BS. I am too, if of course from a more privileged position.

But I think your intervention here was ill-timed and completely out of place, and frankly I take offense to it.
Because what's going on here? A thread made to post martialic war propaganda about an actual, serious armed conflict, which is framed by the poster and the content he provides as some sort of holy war endeavour.
A poster, no less, that as lovable as he is, leaves no doubt in more or less every single post that his basic world view differentiates between what he considers the faithfuls of his religion and what he calls the rest.

That is the sort of religious posturing that deserves relentless ridicule and pushback, period.
It would deserve much more strong worded pushback than what we provided here, to be honest, but it's our very own @guest_07 who we love and cherish as keeper of the Riquelme shrine, so we're not actually hating on him at all.
Because let's be honest, it's pretty clear on which side of this thread the actual bigotry and hate is seated.
I find it actually pretty offensive that you would throw these words at us posters pushing back then, in this specific context.

Again, I understand your reflex, as anti-Islam speech tends to be infused and in the service of anti-immigrant activism, obsessive racism and, in geopolitical terms, neo-imperialism.
But that is not what this thread is about, is it?
Spoiler:
On the contrary, among the complicated twists of this conflict seems to be that you have ancient ethnic and religious strife (occasion apparently, based on this thread, for what I can only call djihadist fanboys to attach themselves to it), but also a geostrategically important, authoritarian country like Azerbaidjan, on the nexus of pipelines and trade routes, being aided by geopolitical players like Russia, Turkey, Israel, with very varying relations to political Islam.
All that on the back of a history where the region with it's countless ethnicities and tribes was controlled and divided up by the Soviet empire and in this case Stalin himself

I personally don't really get much about what's going on, but I'd guess that the framing as religious conflict, let alone in the vulgar version like @guest_07 does it, is probably one of the less apt analyses of this affair

And also that doesn't mean religious fundamentalism shouldn't be ridiculed.
It must be. I come from a very Catholic family and I strongly welcome and encourage as much ridicule, criticism, and hate towards Christianity as possible. They are the worst.

Now about the thread being "embarrassing", again, take a breather. What exactly is embarrassing here? The stuff that the thread maker posts, or the pushback he received, which really was only mildly ironic and tame given what's going on here?

And then, this is a real life war going on in Europe, involving an area where, a century ago, a genocide happened, again targeting the people who were then victims of that genocide.
It deserves a thread, even if in good GL fashion discussion about this might find itself, for lack of other opportunity or activity, in a thread that starts out in a bizarre spam fashion.
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Post by Babun on Sun 18 Oct - 15:36:20

@The Demon of Carthage
You got the first but not the second part of my post. I expect educated muslims in the west to go onto the streets, protest with the slogan "not in my name" and to clearly distance themselves from those atrocities. I also expect those communities to work with the police and the gouvernment as much as possible to prevent radicalization of the youth.
Not saying or doing anythng has always been a sign of ignorance. If you look at it from the above perspective muslims in the west have got the most to lose because of that stigma image, yet they don't do anything to distance themselves. You can't tell me they've got no education or die of hunger..
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Post by M99 on Sun 18 Oct - 16:51:27

@Hapless_Hans wrote:
@M99 wrote:
@Hapless_Hans wrote:


Was wondering when you'd show up being all fragile and defensive

there was literally nothing bigotted or hateful said, at the moment of your post, whatsoever except for the IS links blizzard provided by @guest_07 along with him calling all Indians rapists

but there you are

why are you offended when Muslim extremists are criticized?


Sorry but generalizing the whole religion as always loving to play the victims, mocking it as the religion of peace, does not sit well with me. You can criticize extremism without resorting to that shit. When people do that with Jews because of what Israel does they are rightfully called out for anti-semitism. Thats not being fragile or defensive.

What the fuck are you implying when you say I'm offended when extremists are criticized? Show me one post where I defend extremism or get offended in GL history.


I was just trying out the fragility argumentation in this context to see how it works, admittedly not a proper equivalence. Mixed results, I guess.
And look, I perfectly understand you're beyond sick and tired of constant tired islamophobe BS. I am too, if of course from a more privileged position.

But I think your intervention here was ill-timed and completely out of place, and frankly I take offense to it.
Because what's going on here? A thread made to post martialic war propaganda about an actual, serious armed conflict, which is framed by the poster and the content he provides as some sort of holy war endeavour.
A poster, no less, that as lovable as he is, leaves no doubt in more or less every single post that his basic world view differentiates between what he considers the faithfuls of his religion and what he calls the rest.

That is the sort of religious posturing that deserves relentless ridicule and pushback, period.
It would deserve much more strong worded pushback than what we provided here, to be honest, but it's our very own @guest_07 who we love and cherish as keeper of the Riquelme shrine, so we're not actually hating on him at all.
Because let's be honest, it's pretty clear on which side of this thread the actual bigotry and hate is seated.
I find it actually pretty offensive that you would throw these words at us posters pushing back then, in this specific context.

Again, I understand your reflex, as anti-Islam speech tends to be infused and in the service of anti-immigrant activism, obsessive racism and, in geopolitical terms, neo-imperialism.
But that is not what this thread is about, is it?
Spoiler:
On the contrary, among the complicated twists of this conflict seems to be that you have ancient ethnic and religious strife (occasion apparently, based on this thread, for what I can only call djihadist fanboys to attach themselves to it), but also a geostrategically important, authoritarian country like Azerbaidjan, on the nexus of pipelines and trade routes, being aided by geopolitical players like Russia, Turkey, Israel, with very varying relations to political Islam.
All that on the back of a history where the region with it's countless ethnicities and tribes was controlled and divided up by the Soviet empire and in this case Stalin himself

I personally don't really get much about what's going on, but I'd guess that the framing as religious conflict, let alone in the vulgar version like @guest_07 does it, is probably one of the less apt analyses of this affair

And also that doesn't mean religious fundamentalism shouldn't be ridiculed.
It must be. I come from a very Catholic family and I strongly welcome and encourage as much ridicule, criticism, and hate towards Christianity as possible. They are the worst.

Now about the thread being "embarrassing", again, take a breather. What exactly is embarrassing here? The stuff that the thread maker posts, or the pushback he received, which really was only mildly ironic and tame given what's going on here?

And then, this is a real life war going on in Europe, involving an area where, a century ago, a genocide happened, again targeting the people who were then victims of that genocide.
It deserves a thread, even if in good GL fashion discussion about this might find itself, for lack of other opportunity or activity, in a thread that starts out in a bizarre spam fashion.


I already said what I find embarrassing. Guest07 spouting Azerbaijani propaganda and the snide digs toward an entire religion. Add the unnecessary digs on India as well. Funny you call me fragile when you are the one severely offended.

@babun frankly your "expectations" are ridiculous. Muslims around the world don't have to prove anything to anyone. Its better to not just generalize and make baseless assumptions on such a large group of people instead. Also you really think people don't do anything to stop radicalization of youths? People do and have been striving for that for years.
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Post by Babun on Sun 18 Oct - 19:31:58

@M99 wrote:
@babun frankly your "expectations" are ridiculous. Muslims around the world don't have to prove anything to anyone. Its better to not just generalize and make baseless assumptions on such a large group of people instead. Also you really think people don't do anything to stop radicalization of youths? People do and have been striving for that for years.

There're radical catholic or protestant youths, also lots of sects. Do you know how the non muslim society reacts to them? They're reduculed as lunatics. They feel embarassed to show their extremist sides and go under. It should be the same with the islamic communities. No extremist should be able to proudly walk accross the streets or to express ridiculious thoughts during lessons at school.
Whatever is been done to prevent extremism it isn't nearly enough. The decapitation of a teacher and the massacre at Charlie Hebdo are proof of that.
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Post by Hapless_Hans on Sun 18 Oct - 22:02:41

@M99 wrote:
I already said what I find embarrassing. Guest07 spouting Azerbaijani propaganda and the snide digs toward an entire religion. Add the unnecessary digs on India as well. Funny you call me fragile when you are the one severely offended.

.


I'm not actually offended though personally, don't worry, it's all for arguments sake.
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Post by Blue on Mon 19 Oct - 3:25:54

Virtually all of majority Muslim leaders signed a letter praising China for their treatment of the Uigurs.

In the Israel and Palestine conflict, again the vast majority of the Muslim leaders Side with the non-Muslim side.

Why? Because of power one side has it and the other doesn’t. The motivation of religion is vastly overblown, the reason for much of the conflict in the ME is for power.

In fact human history wars and bloodshed is very easy to explain, they all have been fought for the interest of the elites and powerful. Every one of them have been fought by peasants/lower class for the sole interest of the rich and powerful. Religion, country, and other dogma you can think are tools to fool the ordinary people to think the war is about them, hidden behind it it is just the pursuit of power by the elites.
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Post by The Demon of Carthage on Mon 19 Oct - 11:53:52

@Babun wrote:@The Demon of Carthage
You got the first but not the second part of my post. I expect educated muslims in the west to go onto the streets, protest with the slogan "not in my name" and to clearly distance themselves from those atrocities. I also expect those communities to work with the police and the gouvernment as much as possible to prevent radicalization of the youth.
Not saying or doing anythng has always been a sign of ignorance. If you look at it from the above perspective muslims in the west have got the most to lose because of that stigma image, yet they don't do anything to distance themselves. You can't tell me they've got no education or die of hunger..

If you look at the hundreds who rallied across France on Sunday to pay tribute to the history teacher, you'll notice that many of them were Muslims of North African descent. And I think their number would've been significantly bigger if we didn't have Covid-19.

Similarly, when the tragedy of Charlie Hebdo happened, many Muslims voiced their unconditional support to the newspaper whether it's in the streets or on social media, and completely dissociated themselves from those murderers.

I completely get why you're reacting this way though. It only takes one bad apple to cause a tragedy, and once the tragedy becomes a reality, people don't care anymore about the 99.9% good apples. They just want the 0.1% to stop causing those tragedies, and it can only happen if they take drastic measures against everybody, including the good apples.

I have always thought that religion is not for everybody. You have to a have a certain IQ before embracing it because otherwise, you'll become a brainwashed tool for extremists to use as they please. I also think that if you go to another country, you really have to respect their values and laws. If you think you can't handle it, then simply don't go there.

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Post by El Gunner on Mon 19 Oct - 16:13:37

@Blue wrote:In fact human history wars and bloodshed is very easy to explain, they all have been fought for the interest of the elites and powerful. Every one of them have been fought by peasants/lower class for the sole interest of the rich and powerful. Religion, country, and other dogma you can think are tools to fool the ordinary people to think the war is about them, hidden behind it it is just the pursuit of power by the elites.


thank you
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Post by futbol on Mon 19 Oct - 17:14:28

@Babun wrote:@The Demon of Carthage
You got the first but not the second part of my post. I expect educated muslims in the west to go onto the streets, protest with the slogan "not in my name" and to clearly distance themselves from those atrocities. I also expect those communities to work with the police and the gouvernment as much as possible to prevent radicalization of the youth.
Not saying or doing anythng has always been a sign of ignorance. If you look at it from the above perspective muslims in the west have got the most to lose because of that stigma image, yet they don't do anything to distance themselves. You can't tell me they've got no education or die of hunger..


Trainwreck of a thought process. Assuming that you are white, do you take to the streets and justify yourself everytime someone commits a racist, white supremacist felony?

Dafuq should my Turkish Muslim neighbor in Germany go and justify himself because some Chechen committed a crime in France? Laughing

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Post by Arquitecto on Mon 19 Oct - 17:47:25

The best thing a Muslim that isn't a low-IQ fundamentalist zealot nut can do is, abide by what their book actually teaches them to do.

Be learned enough to debate others and or defend their religion without threats, emotion and other forms of violence.


Lead by example.


And many of them from my knowledge do that as taking examples as the recent ones in Paris is akin to judging the left based on their radical screeching feminazis or the right by their own counterpart.


Its a billion people, if the religion was so bad and oppressive I can assure you the state of things would be far far worse for them, let alone the world.


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Post by VivaStPauli on Mon 19 Oct - 20:08:03

I know we're treating Guest_07 kindly because he's clearly retarded and barely understands english, but after reading this thread:
When would you guys think would it be okay for me to tell him to go fuck himself, and take his jyhadi bullshit with him to his fucked up backwater?

Sry, didn't want to sound rude.
Assalamu'alaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh to Muslim.
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Post by Arquitecto on Mon 19 Oct - 20:21:13

Being the optimist here it may be since English is not his lingua franca that he may have articulated it poorly.


And how has there not been a main event joust between Guest-07 and Unique, before Unique was euthanised that is.
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Post by Myesyats on Mon 19 Oct - 21:05:01

@VivaStPauli wrote:I know we're treating Guest_07 kindly because he's clearly retarded and barely understands english, but after reading this thread:
When would you guys think would it be okay for me to tell him to go fuck himself, and take his jyhadi bullshit with him to his fucked up backwater?

Sry, didn't want to sound rude.
Assalamu'alaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh to Muslim.

Thank you
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Post by Myesyats on Mon 19 Oct - 22:47:37

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2014/07/01/concerns-about-islamic-extremism-on-the-rise-in-middle-east/?fbclid=IwAR13LF0IdSJYQj-FrZHJLwemIgVW4SbFYVHlw9Bll7AZ1tQtHG_JW7tZNGc

Azerbaijan, the liberation of Karabakh - Page 4 PG-2014-07-01-islamic-extremism-10

hmm

so basically half of Egypt has a somewhat favorable view of suicide bombing against infidels? wow, not going on vacation there anymore innit
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Post by Adit on Mon 19 Oct - 23:13:16

Religions will always have extremists. Remember it is every time a normal distribution. Even the non violence preaching Buddhists have extremists in them. It is inevitable in a normally distributed population.

Issue with Islam in current age is two things.

The rigorous religious education during the childhood means that Muslims will generally be very serious about their religion compared to other religious group.

Add in the structural violence present in all abrahamic religions to justify their 'rightful' claim on resources and women we get a very seriously religious population who justify violence in religious conflicts. The one tail of the curve is extremists who believe seriously in violence present in the religious books ,out of context or not.

Even though education could be a factor I think it is not as big factor as the person who went and killed Sikhs in Afghanistan in suicide bombing was from near my place . He was a Doctor. Many people who joined ISIS from my state were people who were working in Dubai as engineers and professionals.


It is not the violence in the book that is the problem. Many books, religious ones justify violence for politics. Bible itself is violent, Geetha is literally Krishna asking Arjuna to go do war .
The difference is that these religions have not created a eco system which impart serious religious education as much as Islam has done. The community should stop giving too much religious education in an early age. The kids when they learn to read can read and learn themselves. At the moment I wouldn't trust the religious educational given to Muslims in Madrassas. Even if few in numbers there seems to be a bit too much hard line education centers compared to other organised religions like Christianity. When was the last time we had a extremist church caught red handed radicalising christian youth ? Compare that to Islamic education centers.
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