Re: Political Correctness, LGBTQ, #meToo and other related topics

by Babun Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:24 am

Myesyats wrote:
Nishankly wrote:
Babun wrote:Halle Bailey casted as ariel, the little mermaid for disney's next live action show which caused a racial shitstorm in the www:
https://www.nbcnews.com/pop-culture/pop-culture-news/disney-s-freeform-responds-critics-halle-bailey-casting-ariel-n1027456

What's your opinion about the topic?

Jesus was dark brown skinned.

Jesus isnt real but if he was, I wouldnt say he was dark skinned. Passages from the bible say he was "dark as an olive" but their olives weren't really dark, quite light rather. So light brown is what I'd tilt towards.

Besides, he was a "middle-eastern Jew" and they can be pretty white, such as this 100% middle-eastern jew girl:
Spoiler:

In fact, it is widely known that Jews consider themselves white even though they have an olive complexion.

The irony is the genetically closest to old school jews are modern Palestinians (look at dienekes' blog). They were dark skinned, as properly dark skinned as an arab. The migration towards Europe consisted mostly of men so on the way they married lots of South/Central European women. After the creation of modern day Israel, they settled in the new area. The Jews today from Europe or ex European jews in no way ressemble the original jews who migrated. The example pic is a bogus for that reason. Ethnicity!=religion.
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/06/two-major-groups-of-living-jews-atzmon.html

Art Morte wrote:Over 80 people dead in clashes in Ethiopia between the largest minority group and government forces / pro-government people. Obviously no BLM people care about it since it happens in Africa and is black-on-black violence.

Side note: Checked out Ethiopia's wikipedia and their population has risen from 38m in 1983 to 110m in 2018... Fuck me, no wonder that prosperity cannot keep up with that kind of reproduction rate.

Spoiler:

Another example where the symptoms are treated but not the real problem itself. The elephant in the room no one talks about is the pension/retirement money. People make lots of children in Africa because they're the ones who take care of the parents when they're old. One has to address that problem before anything else. I'd do the same if I lived in Africa, no one would care for me if I get old or sick except for my family members.

by Myesyats Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:36 am

Well, who cares anyway. Make your own paintaings in your image if you want, Jesus is more of a symbolic figure than anything

by Warrior Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:09 am

CBarca wrote:I'm not sure why white people should give a shit anyway?

Hollywood isn't about to stop casting straight white people, who still make up the vast, vast majority of roles in Hollywood. There is plenty of opportunity to go around. How about we, you know, share it with the people that have either intentionally or unintentionally been shat on for a good portion of their entire existence.

You make valid points

Positive discrimination (assuming it's on a reasonable degree) is fair enough

The extreme thinking a.k.a political correctness/SJW is my problem, not for its content, but because i dislike all sorts of tunnel visions and especially those who get exposure. At best they are annoying, at worst they are dangerous.

by VivaStPauli Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:00 pm

Nishankly wrote:
Babun wrote:Halle Bailey casted as ariel, the little mermaid for disney's next live action show which caused a racial shitstorm in the www:
https://www.nbcnews.com/pop-culture/pop-culture-news/disney-s-freeform-responds-critics-halle-bailey-casting-ariel-n1027456

What's your opinion about the topic?

Jesus was dark brown skinned.

I mean honestly, it's fictional characters, color really doesn't matter unless it's a plot point in their story.

by Blue Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:48 pm

El Gunner wrote:
Blue wrote:I personally find the consistent remakes of original movies/shows/cartoons with different races quite stupid. Just create new characters and story, find the whole phenomenon cheap, lazy, and uncreative.

Can't change the past and unwise to rewrite history, work on the present and future.

Also the whole thing about a minority should play a minority is quite nonsense. It is called acting for a reason, if a the actor playing have to have the lived experience than is there any acting going on?

i think it more has to do with big studio movies who have the funds to afford any actor, so why not just approach a minority actor for a minority role then?

if it's smaller movies no one cares about, then it shouldn't be much of a problem,

why not have them for other roles if the goal is give them more opportunities.

Look at Neil Patrick Harris who had a very successful career in roles that he is clearly not in real life.

If the goal is to give them more opportunities than we should do it on the basis of acting.

by El Gunner Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:01 pm

^^why not both?

by BarrileteCosmico Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:25 pm

CBarca wrote:We've lived in a culture that has now long kept gays, lesbians, transgender people, Black Americans, Native Americans etc out of roles they would have been perfect for. We gave those roles to white/straight/binary people instead.

With society progressing, especially socially, shouldn't we try and fix this inequality? Isn't it a good idea to be like: holy fuck, there are a lot of gay actors out there: let's give the role to someone who is actually gay.

I think that's valiant. We should open up space for queer and BIPOC to make waves in the entertainment industry and beyond. And I say that as someone who has no problem with Chalamet/Hammer in CMBYN, or Portman/Kunis in Black Swan, Ledger/Gyllenhaal in Brokeback Mountain. It doesn't personally "offend" me at all..

I completely agree with this, I think it's a worthy goal and that hollywood should do what it can to give all kinds of people access to roles and even preferential treatment when 2 similarly talented people are being considered for a role.

That said, I don't think it's wrong for an actor to act outside his/her born group, which is after all the entire point of acting, and no one should lose their job over being the "wrong" race/ethnic group.

by rincon Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:31 pm

The answer to most of these things should be: why do you care? how does it affect you rlife?

Is anyone here so invested in the little mermaid canon that it kills you to see Ariel changed? Laughing

For the history of western TV and movies the overwhelming majority of roles has been played by white people. Why care that these roles are changed to actors of different ethnicities?

What's wrong about a little black girl watching the little mermaid and feeling a deeper connection to it than before? there are enough roles acted by white people, it's not like white actors are being marginalized.

Reminds of the talk about the Witcher Netflix casting. Why care? let studios do their thing and judge the artistic quality of the finished work.

If things are done poorly it will be a poor product and be swiftly forgotten.

If things are done well, everyone gets a good movie/show, and an underrepresented demographic sees themselves on the big screen.

Of all the things to get upset about, better inclusivity in media is one of the most absurd ones.

by McLewis Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:56 pm

I think there is a significant underestimation of under-representation in the arts. White men have dominated it, as they have with everything else in the West, for centuries. Even roles written for women and POC were played by white men at some points in history. With women and POC gaining ground in equality, is it really all that strange for them to want to see themselves represented in the arts they support, even in roles normally played by men or white men? I really don't think so.

I have a biracial daughter, for example. While she likes the original Ghostbusters movies, the new gender-swapped one really piqued her interest in a way the others couldn't. There was something about seeing women in those roles that just clicked with her. She never said it, but it was clear to me given we watched all 3 movies in a single sitting, that last one resonated with her quite a bit. The movie itself wasn't great, but she enjoyed it as much if not more than the originals. I'm always going to be good with that.

Like a few of you have expressed, I wish this wasn't a thing, but powerful white men made it a thing by oppressing both women and POC of color for centuries and denying them the right to perform the same roles. It didn't have to be this way, but the discomfort with gender-swapped or color-swapped roles (especially of fictional characters) is not something I have much concern or sympathy for. This is the new normal and I support it.

by Art Morte Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:18 pm

McLewis wrote:I think there is a significant underestimation of under-representation in the arts. White men have dominated it, as they have with everything else in the West, for centuries. Even roles written for women and POC were played by white men at some points in history. With women and POC gaining ground in equality, is it really all that strange for them to want to see themselves represented in the arts they support, even in roles normally played by men or white men? I really don't think so.

I have a biracial daughter, for example. While she likes the original Ghostbusters movies, the new gender-swapped one really piqued her interest in a way the others couldn't. There was something about seeing women in those roles that just clicked with her. She never said it, but it was clear to me given we watched all 3 movies in a single sitting, that last one resonated with her quite a bit. The movie itself wasn't great, but she enjoyed it as much if not more than the originals. I'm always going to be good with that.

Like a few of you have expressed, I wish this wasn't a thing, but powerful white men made it a thing by oppressing both women and POC of color for centuries and denying them the right to perform the same roles. It didn't have to be this way, but the discomfort with gender-swapped or color-swapped roles (especially of fictional characters) is not something I have much concern or sympathy for. This is the new normal and I support it.

It's a positive change where it makes sense, but where there's a token black, woman or minority person thrown in somewhere where it's obviously token, it's a negative. I quite like Midsommer Murder's (UK detective show) and for a while now they often have this token black person in an otherwise white English countryside community and it's a bit ridiculous. I don't think any black people who watch it think that it makes sense, either.

by Myesyats Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:13 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote: I will say people should be consistent though, if you don't care that the little mermaid (inspired by a scandinavian folk story iirc) is black then you should also not care when a white character is cast in a typically black/minority role.

I would consider this as an important starting point in this conversation.^

I already stated that I'm totally fine with a dark skinned Ariel. I didn't even notice that they changed her skin on the poster. But then I can't be outraged when they cast a white person in a role that may be better suited for a person with a darker skin tone, right? Assuming that you believe that Ariel should have white skin because she's from around Denmark in 1837 according to the original fairy tale.

And the argument that POC can play white roles (or white characters can be turned into black) but not the other way around as a "revenge for centuries of opression" is flawed because these people are dead now. People today have gone above and beyond for equality. Naturally, more still can be done but it's a gradual process and not something you can do in a few years. The entire history is littered with prejudice.

by M99 Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:15 pm

I don't know why things like these have to be political.

For example in the US, if you're right wing its like a requirement to not wear masks and downplay corona.

Supporting MeToo and wanting sexual harassers punished make you left wing, but why? Why does politics have to come into this?

by McLewis Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:33 pm

Art Morte wrote:
McLewis wrote:I think there is a significant underestimation of under-representation in the arts. White men have dominated it, as they have with everything else in the West, for centuries. Even roles written for women and POC were played by white men at some points in history. With women and POC gaining ground in equality, is it really all that strange for them to want to see themselves represented in the arts they support, even in roles normally played by men or white men? I really don't think so.

I have a biracial daughter, for example. While she likes the original Ghostbusters movies, the new gender-swapped one really piqued her interest in a way the others couldn't. There was something about seeing women in those roles that just clicked with her. She never said it, but it was clear to me given we watched all 3 movies in a single sitting, that last one resonated with her quite a bit. The movie itself wasn't great, but she enjoyed it as much if not more than the originals. I'm always going to be good with that.

Like a few of you have expressed, I wish this wasn't a thing, but powerful white men made it a thing by oppressing both women and POC of color for centuries and denying them the right to perform the same roles. It didn't have to be this way, but the discomfort with gender-swapped or color-swapped roles (especially of fictional characters) is not something I have much concern or sympathy for. This is the new normal and I support it.

It's a positive change where it makes sense, but where there's a token black, woman or minority person thrown in somewhere where it's obviously token, it's a negative. I quite like Midsommer Murder's (UK detective show) and for a while now they often have this token black person in an otherwise white English countryside community and it's a bit ridiculous. I don't think any black people who watch it think that it makes sense, either.

My mom loves Midsummer Murders. She loves a lot of those UK police shows. You're right though. Didn't see a whole lot of black folks in that one particularly. I don't know UK demographics well enough to know how accurate that was though.

by Arquitecto Fri Jul 03, 2020 2:56 am

(And yes Jesus was indeed dark-skinned, had curly hair and was quite a ruthless bad ass far from the gentle angelic anglo image he has been given by the west. And of course called Yeshua)

by Blue Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:19 am

Honestly religion is probably the biggest perpetrator of racism.

Let’s just say the expansion of Islam and Christianity were not done so through acceptance and understanding of other cultures and way of life.

by Babun Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:25 pm

Guys, off topic again. I created threads for the topics:
https://goallegacy.forumotion.com/t42385-left-vs-right-views
https://goallegacy.forumotion.com/t42384-capitalism-vs-communism

Feel free to discuss as much as you want but stop derailing this thread.

On topic:

Yes. So this is something that I think goes back decades. One of the first CDs that I ever bought was from the LA-based rap group N.W.A. There was such a panic about that record, particularly the song "F--- tha Police," which was a protest song about - I mean, it wasn't all just profanity and violence - it was a protest song about racist policing. And it was considered so dangerous to have that record and to listen to that record, to the point where the FBI assistant director actually sent a letter to the record company complaining about the song. And police unions throughout the country when that song came out were passing notes about the lyrics and trying to urge the local precincts to prevent or shut down N.W.A. performances when they were on tour.

The music really touched a nerve with people because it was about violent retaliation toward police for racist policing, and it really crossed the line. And I think we see manifestations of that same kind of attitude in the way that police union heads and personnel have been speaking lately about the protests, as well as the way politicians have been speaking lately about, you know, how it's kind of un-American to criticize the police in the scenario because their jobs are so dangerous that we shouldn't criticize them. We have to walk on eggshells around them.

Do the police have a point, though, that some of the statements that get made, or some of the calls to action - you know, what makes that different than, perhaps, hate speech, you know, that wouldn't fly with another group?

And that is a really good point. And there is a way in which I'm I am sympathetic with some of the responses we've seen from police, verbal responses, talking about being disrespected, and so on. The problem is that the backdrop of those kinds of pleas is widespread video footage of, you know, what looks awfully like unprovoked police violence against people who are trying to exercise their First Amendment rights.

We need to get to a point in this country where we can have a more honest conversation about the value that our police are providing to our societies, into our communities, where we don't have to worry about maybe being called un-American, or, like the Attorney General said recently, insinuating that if you criticize the police, they might be justified in not protecting you. I think we need to get to a point in the conversation where we can talk frankly about those things without that kind of threat looming over people who criticize the police.

https://www.mainepublic.org/post/political-correctness-factor-shielding-police-accountability-colby-professor-says

A very interesting article about professor Colby. He is of the opinion PC actually helps to shield the police force from accountability.

by Babun Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:16 pm

David Starkey resigns from university role over slavery comments

https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-53279273

by Myesyats Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:19 pm

Damn, that's bad. Totally deserved sack a 100 times over

by RealGunner Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:43 pm

McLewis wrote:
Art Morte wrote:
McLewis wrote:I think there is a significant underestimation of under-representation in the arts. White men have dominated it, as they have with everything else in the West, for centuries. Even roles written for women and POC were played by white men at some points in history. With women and POC gaining ground in equality, is it really all that strange for them to want to see themselves represented in the arts they support, even in roles normally played by men or white men? I really don't think so.

I have a biracial daughter, for example. While she likes the original Ghostbusters movies, the new gender-swapped one really piqued her interest in a way the others couldn't. There was something about seeing women in those roles that just clicked with her. She never said it, but it was clear to me given we watched all 3 movies in a single sitting, that last one resonated with her quite a bit. The movie itself wasn't great, but she enjoyed it as much if not more than the originals. I'm always going to be good with that.

Like a few of you have expressed, I wish this wasn't a thing, but powerful white men made it a thing by oppressing both women and POC of color for centuries and denying them the right to perform the same roles. It didn't have to be this way, but the discomfort with gender-swapped or color-swapped roles (especially of fictional characters) is not something I have much concern or sympathy for. This is the new normal and I support it.

It's a positive change where it makes sense, but where there's a token black, woman or minority person thrown in somewhere where it's obviously token, it's a negative. I quite like Midsommer Murder's (UK detective show) and for a while now they often have this token black person in an otherwise white English countryside community and it's a bit ridiculous. I don't think any black people who watch it think that it makes sense, either.

My mom loves Midsummer Murders. She loves a lot of those UK police shows. You're right though. Didn't see a whole lot of black folks in that one particularly. I don't know UK demographics well enough to know how accurate that was though.

Outside of London and Manchester, i would say the probability of seeing a black person is 1 out of 300 people. A lot less in the country side areas.

The rate has decreased in recent years due to more immigration and birth rates over the 10 years but when shows like midsommer were made in the late 90s, showing a token black guy was probably their version of showing diversity when they didn't need to. Specially since midsommer is based on sommerset county which currently has a 98.8% population of white people ( must be 99% back when midsommer was made)

It makes more sense to show Asian people than black in british shows (very common now).

by Hapless_Hans Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:08 pm

Babun wrote:
David Starkey resigns from university role over slavery comments
https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-53279273

Honestly the surprise must be that someone like him was still meployed by a university

by BarrileteCosmico Sun Jul 05, 2020 6:00 pm

yup pretty clear cut case, can't blame the university for distancing themselves

by McLewis Sun Jul 05, 2020 6:10 pm

RealGunner wrote:
McLewis wrote:
Art Morte wrote:
McLewis wrote:I think there is a significant underestimation of under-representation in the arts. White men have dominated it, as they have with everything else in the West, for centuries. Even roles written for women and POC were played by white men at some points in history. With women and POC gaining ground in equality, is it really all that strange for them to want to see themselves represented in the arts they support, even in roles normally played by men or white men? I really don't think so.

I have a biracial daughter, for example. While she likes the original Ghostbusters movies, the new gender-swapped one really piqued her interest in a way the others couldn't. There was something about seeing women in those roles that just clicked with her. She never said it, but it was clear to me given we watched all 3 movies in a single sitting, that last one resonated with her quite a bit. The movie itself wasn't great, but she enjoyed it as much if not more than the originals. I'm always going to be good with that.

Like a few of you have expressed, I wish this wasn't a thing, but powerful white men made it a thing by oppressing both women and POC of color for centuries and denying them the right to perform the same roles. It didn't have to be this way, but the discomfort with gender-swapped or color-swapped roles (especially of fictional characters) is not something I have much concern or sympathy for. This is the new normal and I support it.

It's a positive change where it makes sense, but where there's a token black, woman or minority person thrown in somewhere where it's obviously token, it's a negative. I quite like Midsommer Murder's (UK detective show) and for a while now they often have this token black person in an otherwise white English countryside community and it's a bit ridiculous. I don't think any black people who watch it think that it makes sense, either.

My mom loves Midsummer Murders. She loves a lot of those UK police shows. You're right though. Didn't see a whole lot of black folks in that one particularly. I don't know UK demographics well enough to know how accurate that was though.

Outside of London and Manchester, i would say the probability of seeing a black person is 1 out of 300 people. A lot less in the country side areas.

The rate has decreased in recent years due to more immigration and birth rates over the 10 years but when shows like midsommer were made in the late 90s, showing a token black guy was probably their version of showing diversity when they didn't need to. Specially since midsommer is based on sommerset county which currently has a 98.8% population of white people ( must be 99% back when midsommer was made)

It makes more sense to show Asian people than black in british shows (very common now).

Yeah this lines up with the experience here in rural parts of this country. Predominantly white counties with flecks of color. A lot of it is just natural segregation, some of it by racism, but a lot of it by lifestyle.

by Babun Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:00 pm

Political Correctness, LGBTQ, #meToo and other related topics - Page 2 Http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.cnn.com%2Fcnnnext%2Fdam%2Fassets%2F200626154625-01-jari-jones-calvin-klein

https://edition.cnn.com/style/article/calvin-klein-pride-campaign-jari-jones-trend/index.html

Your opinion about the transgender model Jaro Jones at Calvin Klein?

by Art Morte Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:06 pm

^ My first concern would be that is she posing like that to hide something that the swimwear would otherwise reveal?

Second question probably that would she have a modelling career without being transgender, but whateveeeeeeer.

by BarrileteCosmico Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:53 pm

Babun wrote:
https://edition.cnn.com/style/article/calvin-klein-pride-campaign-jari-jones-trend/index.html

Your opinion about the transgender model Jaro Jones at Calvin Klein?

They're getting you to talk about it so mission accomplished Smile

by Babun Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:03 pm

I see her as an insult to all professional models and the LGBTQ community. It's like they found the first person ticking all of the boxes for LGBTQ and then went on with her. I know at least two Ethiopean lesbians as a private person who would put her and lots of white models to shame (they've go a proper ass and toned legs). Can't be hard to find at least one appropriate representant among millions of people in the US.

BTW:
Political Correctness, LGBTQ, #meToo and other related topics - Page 2 AAegnvL_460swp

Political Correctness, LGBTQ, #meToo and other related topics - Page 2 AAegnvL_460swp

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