left vs right views

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Post by Arquitecto Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:54 pm

Got to say, Babun is a breath of fresh air in what is evidently a relatively left-leaning forum. If he articulated his ideals or frustrations better many here wouldn't be half as triggered as they are. Though being triggered on an online forum and resorting to ad-hominem is already pathetic as it is.


I understand the double standards and general media stance you speak of Babun but online and in media you will learn the extreme is shown far more on such platforms compared to real life.


Off internet you'll see far more balanced examples, I have learned, from an anecdotal perspective.
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Post by El Gunner Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:20 pm

@Arquitecto wrote:Got to say, Babun is a breath of fresh air in what is evidently a relatively left-leaning forum. If he articulated his ideals or frustrations better many here wouldn't be half as triggered as they are. Though being triggered on an online forum and resorting to ad-hominem is already pathetic as it is.


what does "left-leaning" even mean????

your ad-hominem argument is becoming a gimmick? why don't you give your opinions yourself instead of just using that term to deflect
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Post by Art Morte Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:31 pm

@El Gunner wrote:
@Arquitecto wrote:Got to say, Babun is a breath of fresh air in what is evidently a relatively left-leaning forum. If he articulated his ideals or frustrations better many here wouldn't be half as triggered as they are. Though being triggered on an online forum and resorting to ad-hominem is already pathetic as it is.


what does "left-leaning" even mean????

your ad-hominem argument is becoming a gimmick? why don't you give your opinions yourself instead of just using that term to deflect


Surely you don't have to wonder what does left-leaning mean (in political context). But Arqui's views are right-leaning, Babun and Myesats have got some, too, I have views and values both from the left and the right. Sepi seems right-leaning, but is very infrequent here. The rest of the active forum seems leftist. (Not actually sure about RG, he doesn't bother with these. My impression is he's a BAME Brit but I'm not even sure about that. A very smart guy, though, too bad he doesn't talk about these topics, I probably rate his opinions the highest out of everyone here (when he's not trolling, so, well...)).

It's not just this forum, but expressing even moderate right-wing views anywhere in public has become an issue that gets judged on quick & hard nowadays, so Arqui saying Babun is refreshing is perfectly understandable, imo.
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Post by El Gunner Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:43 pm

what's the use of categorising people like that, is my opinion?

i have "liberal views" on some stuff, and "conservative views" on others? so again, i say why put someone in a box like that?

it makes it even more silly considering what is considered liberal today, might be considered conservative in 5 or 10 years.
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Post by VivaStPauli Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:52 pm

It means Arq has not found many people agreeing with his medieval views on women, and the nature of public discourse, and now he's feeling vindicated by randomly overlapping opinions with Babun on half an issue.

Which is nice, I'm sure Arq is a good guy, but he's been kind of been overtaken by the passage of time. Hence the perception of this forum as left-leaning, which it isn't.
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Post by El Gunner Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:32 pm

@Art Morte wrote: (Not actually sure about RG, he doesn't bother with these. My impression is he's a BAME Brit but I'm not even sure about that. A very smart guy, though, too bad he doesn't talk about these topics, I probably rate his opinions the highest out of everyone here (when he's not trolling, so, well...)).

i went back and read some of the threads 4 and 5 years ago a while back. RG used to be a very profound existentialist. He was open-minded for sure, and argued things from different perspectives. He used to be more opinionated back then, and i think he used to be vocal on the refugee crisis and Brexit campaign as well.

i think these days, since leaving Uni and entering the work force, he has become more of a pragmatist. Which is understandable. I've gone on record before by saying once people enter the workforce they don't have much of a choice to surrender to the clutches of capitalism and approach life more pragmatically.. only really caring about their little space and connections around them.
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Post by Warrior Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:33 pm

Agreed in principle, even if i disagree with the second example, the first one is accurate

Sometimes i feel some people force themselves to remain strictly right or strictly left. And common sense is lost at some point.

Then again, having a tunnel vision is quite stupid, as El 5th said it's better to see both sides left AND right. It's my case, pretty sure it's the case for you, and everyone else on this form. But tbh i suspect the average intellect here is higher than on Twitter/Facebook and other popular medias.
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Post by Art Morte Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:35 pm

@El Gunner wrote:what's the use of categorising people like that, is my opinion?

i have "liberal views" on some stuff, and "conservative views" on others? so again, i say why put someone in a box like that?

it makes it even more silly considering what is considered liberal today, might be considered conservative in 5 or 10 years.

Because categorising people has become the norm in the 21th century? Let's not pretend like it hasn't, especially in places like the US.


@VivaStPauli wrote:It means Arq has not found many people agreeing with his medieval views on women, and the nature of public discourse, and now he's feeling vindicated by randomly overlapping opinions with Babun on half an issue.

Which is nice, I'm sure Arq is a good guy, but he's been kind of been overtaken by the passage of time. Hence the perception of this forum as left-leaning, which it isn't.

I don't have a clue about Arqui's views on women, but let me ask you this: Men who like a relationship dynamic where the man is dominant in some ways and the woman submissive in some ways are condemned by leftist people such as yourself. What about the fact that there are women out there who like a man who is dominant in some ways - these ways can vary - and want such a man. Do you condemn these women like you condemn these men?
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Post by Blue Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:38 pm

@El Gunner wrote:^^why not both?


Exactly, why shouldn't anyone be allowed to play whoever they want? Of course i think blackface or a complete caricature based other races is not okay.

Why should people be shammed or pressured from taking roles they are good and not offensive? Like the guy who voiced Cleveland Brown on the cartoon show.
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Post by Babun Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:27 pm

@Art Morte wrote:
@El Gunner wrote:
@Arquitecto wrote:Got to say, Babun is a breath of fresh air in what is evidently a relatively left-leaning forum. If he articulated his ideals or frustrations better many here wouldn't be half as triggered as they are. Though being triggered on an online forum and resorting to ad-hominem is already pathetic as it is.


what does "left-leaning" even mean????

your ad-hominem argument is becoming a gimmick? why don't you give your opinions yourself instead of just using that term to deflect


Surely you don't have to wonder what does left-leaning mean (in political context). But Arqui's views are right-leaning, Babun and Myesats have got some, too, I have views and values both from the left and the right. Sepi seems right-leaning, but is very infrequent here. The rest of the active forum seems leftist. (Not actually sure about RG, he doesn't bother with these. My impression is he's a BAME Brit but I'm not even sure about that. A very smart guy, though, too bad he doesn't talk about these topics, I probably rate his opinions the highest out of everyone here (when he's not trolling, so, well...)).

It's not just this forum, but expressing even moderate right-wing views anywhere in public has become an issue that gets judged on quick & hard nowadays, so Arqui saying Babun is refreshing is perfectly understandable, imo.

My views aren't right leaning, I'm quite conservative and use common sense most of the time. I'll give you an example what disturbs me in modern culture for you to know my views better.
I see the inequality problem from another point of view. Why does a woman have to decide between her carreer and kids nowadays in a modern society? Why isn't it possible for her to be the first 2-3 years with her kid then return to work as if nothing happened? I mean kids and families are the basic units of the society, yet women have to throw away their future and aspirations to have their kids. Instead they work their asses off until they are 30+ something (which isn't a good age to bear children) with a single kid or non at all if a suitable partner isn't found otherwise their career goes down the drain. That's a gross issue of inequality to me. To me, it might be very controversial, the women were granted their rights to work as much as mean to double the available work force, not to grant them their well deserved rights. The current climate, especially the leftist one seems to me to be breaking the traditional mom+kids bonds even more for a no kids family. I mean a woman has got a limited time frame when she can have kids or not. If she wants later but can't there's nothing but regrets and depression. This is the elephant in the room for me. Women and kids are more important than men, we have got a society with very strong, dominant males yet they can't grant the woman time to bear and take care of their children without the huuuuge downsides. Women are also afraid to take risks or to go all out because of their families which is bullshit. Then I see a bunch of feminists talking about the inequality of pay all the time which isn't the real problem but a big part of it or who are triggered by minimal nonissues from my POV. The problem is structural. One doesn't need to destroy the concept of a family to solve it. Modern children are practically abandoned by their parents because they always work and are never home for them. When they're they're dead tired.
I rarely consume porn and hate it when I see almost naked women/posters around. For me, the pics suggest they're a piece of meat. I've got a mother, sister and wife. They aren't a piece of meat. I don't consume porn (not kidding). The existence of those pictures is blasphemy in itself for me.

On media manipulation: let's take sneakers. Profit is limited by production costs among the other factors. What happened? There were a campaigns for animal rights sometimes in 80s and 90s. Corporations fully supported the movement to reduce their costs. They slowly started to replace leather parts with plastic. Nowadays, all marketing driven modern shoes (Nike, Adidas and co.) are completly from synthetics, cost probably 5$ in production, cost around 120-200$, aren't durable, polute the environment. To increase the profit, there's group pressure to a buy a new pair of garbage each season Very Happy The earth and the oceans are being strangulated by plastic garbage. We actually went backwards..
Anyone who wore a C85 Reebok Classic, Adidas or the original Nike air will understand what I mean. What I want to say, there're shitloads of movements for the good of humanity but only those which serve interests of profit emerge victorious or are supported by the "higher ups". Not everything that existed or exists is bad. They went through many iterations, a shoe, a computer or whatsever. For a "change", most of the time, there's no need to destroy something, one can use common sense and adapt the concept to the current time.
From my point of view, the current liberal left is manipulated in large by mainstream media to do the dirty work for the "higher ups" without them noticing it. I never had a problem with LGBTQ, one of my favourite phrases is that a gay men leaves me one more woman and takes another man with him = profit. I also interact normally. For me, the solutions I see in the US are more cosmetics on the outside than on fundamental level.
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Post by Arquitecto Fri Jul 03, 2020 2:46 am

Viva my views back then seldom if not ever represent mine now given they were at a very nascent stage at a very different part of my life. From how I saw football, freedom to life to my general philosophy as a whole. Babun's views are unclear to me aside from his general stance from a political point of view. It brings me no comfort have more posters with views shared with mine as I enjoy differing ideals otherwise things tend to become boring. But yes lets continue to used archived messages from over 9 years ago.

I certainly not embarrassed of views to which were of me in the beginning of my 20s but I do disavow them and distance myself from a lot of what was said then given ignorance and general bias was my biggest regret.


And many posters here have evolved as such as if you do not look back at ridicule at yourself, then you have not evolved.

But I will maintain the forum does lean to the left as I have not given my opinion to that but it is marked by Babun stirring such controversy by views contrarian to the general consensus here, to which have their own semblance of truth, especially if better put.


Only until recently my view of the political spectrum has become more centralised (i.e more boring) compared to when I was strict on the left in my teens, then to the right in my mid-twenties but I do not care to give my opinion and content to be more spectator by this point in my passive activity on GL. Quite frankly I hold no weight on that given my antics here as a whole throughout the forum history.

I do agree on the idea the both sides of a spectrum should be given attention as if one is content on an echo chamber than I cannot stress how dangerous that comfort is. An example of an echo chamber is a place Alt-rightists made to brach off twitter since they could not handle opposing views. And guess what? They cannibalised themselves through inner conflict.


My point was simple commentary on the situation of Babun as of recent , nothing more. But if it isn't seen that more conservative, right leaning or whatever you want to call it views, are not met with hostility, then I will disagree as I can name several posters now and in the past who've been met with such a reception from terrible views of Unique to more measured ones of Yuri Yurkov.

I do hope GL will find a way to use voice notes as a form of communication in the future as typing has been less and less a feature in myself and I'd like to articulate myself by speaking. Any hope on that btw?


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Post by Thimmy Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:10 pm

I share Arquitecto's sentiment. Often times, I appreciate opposing views. These discussions would be quite boring if everyone agreed on everything. However, it's the relatively far left or nothing on this forum. I can't be bothered to partake in discussions where it ends up becoming me and possibly one or two others against a majority that's quick to bring out their hayforks at the first sign of provocation or disagreement. The fact that said people tend to jump to the worst possible conclusions, and don't even recognize that they're left leaning, makes reaching a middle ground even more hopeless.

I don't know why some people deny that they're left leaning, or deny the well documented tendency of grouping up against posters with a different take on political discussions. Some self-awareness would go a long way in keeping these discussions more civil. The way I see it, neither the left or the right are necessarily in the wrong. It's the "my way or the highway"- stance that's frustrating to deal with.
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Post by Warrior Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:17 pm

scratch really ?

I think it's quite even the amount of left-center-right posters. More importantly the immense majority have nuances.
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Post by El Gunner Fri Jul 03, 2020 2:03 pm

@Thimmy wrote:I share Arquitecto's sentiment. Often times, I appreciate opposing views. These discussions would be quite boring if everyone agreed on everything. However, it's the relatively far left or nothing on this forum. I can't be bothered to partake in discussions where it ends up becoming me and possibly one or two others against a majority that's quick to bring out their hayforks at the first sign of provocation or disagreement. The fact that said people tend to jump to the worst possible conclusions, and don't even recognize that they're left leaning, makes reaching a middle ground even more hopeless.

I don't know why some people deny that they're left leaning, or deny the well documented tendency of grouping up against posters with a different take on political discussions. Some self-awareness would go a long way in keeping these discussions more civil. The way I see it, neither the left or the right are necessarily in the wrong. It's the "my way or the highway"- stance that's frustrating to deal with.


i won't deny the grouping's of people that usually have similar opinions have become obvious throughout the years, i even pointed it out once a year or two ago.

but this post of yours just goes to show me that your view on the matter of these discussions is you placing yourself on a "particular" side as well.

you thinking some members are "quick to bring out their hayforks" shows me that you are acutely defensive about certain topics, stances and arguments. Why is that?
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Post by Pedram Fri Jul 03, 2020 3:44 pm

When did lefties deny their political orientation that i'm not aware of? why would they want to hide their motives? they have nothing to be ashamed of unlike the right-wingers who have to pursue their interests with innuendos and dog-whistles because their ideas are so abhorrent to society that they can't just plainly state them.

I hate these sort of both sides-ism, let's not pretend left-wing radicals are just as bad as right-wing terrorists, don't try to make a false equivalency between these groups. i think at this point it's pretty clear who's on the right side of history and which side is trying to impede progress.
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Post by Babun Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:08 pm

@betty, I'm atheist, try harder next time Very Happy

@pedram, @elgunner, @warrior, @thimmy

How about stopping the process of puting people into left and right brackets and discuss concrete examples of issues the old school way by using pro or contra arguments? Neither leftist, nor rightist, Jesus or whoever holds the absolute truth. If you're sure you're right in a matter, prove it with arguments, not by insulting or argueing with people about left or right.
Whataboutism doesn't lead anywhere nor generalizations. If you guys have a concrete example of a recent topic concerning PC, #meToo or LGBTQ discuss it here. If you're right you'll have the support. Just bring the arguments instead of insults or generalizations.

Back to the topic:
Do we agree the little mermaid casting is actually a nonissue?
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Post by El Gunner Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:30 pm

@Babun wrote:How about stopping the process of puting people into left and right brackets and discuss concrete examples of issues the old school way by using pro or contra arguments? Neither leftist, nor rightist, Jesus or whoever holds the absolute truth.

that's what i've been saying the whole time so why are you including me?

@Babun wrote:If you're sure you're right in a matter, prove it with arguments, not by insulting or argueing with people about left or right.
Whataboutism doesn't lead anywhere nor generalizations. If you guys have a concrete example of a recent topic concerning PC, #meToo or LGBTQ discuss it here. If you're right you'll have the support. Just bring the arguments instead of insults or generalizations.
this seems to be the existential problem of our times, and yet people don't realise it yet.
ANYTHING can be proved and disproved over and over again, multiple times, based on just using a particular set of "factual" data by a particular set of researchers, institutions, news channels, basically anyone who holds authority in the culture.

which leads us to a postmodern problem known as hyper-reality and can largely be deduced to who is right, who has the facts and what is real?

the only real answer is, the ones with the money and power still live the best lives and are least affected by society and the culture.

Hence the only real social question remains what should we do about capitalism, economic inequality and the elites...
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Post by Babun Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:56 pm

@El Gunner wrote:
@Babun wrote:How about stopping the process of puting people into left and right brackets and discuss concrete examples of issues the old school way by using pro or contra arguments? Neither leftist, nor rightist, Jesus or whoever holds the absolute truth.

that's what i've been saying the whole time so why are you including me?

@Babun wrote:If you're sure you're right in a matter, prove it with arguments, not by insulting or argueing with people about left or right.
Whataboutism doesn't lead anywhere nor generalizations. If you guys have a concrete example of a recent topic concerning PC, #meToo or LGBTQ discuss it here. If you're right you'll have the support. Just bring the arguments instead of insults or generalizations.
this seems to be the existential problem of our times, and yet people don't realise it yet.
ANYTHING can be proved and disproved over and over again, multiple times, based on just using a particular set of "factual" data by a particular set of researchers, institutions, news channels, basically anyone who holds authority in the culture.

which leads us to a postmodern problem known as hyper-reality and can largely be deduced to who is right, who has the facts and what is real?

the only real answer is, the ones with the money and power still live the best lives and are least affected by society and the culture.

Hence the only real social question remains what should we do about capitalism, economic inequality and the elites...

1. You provided 0 cases to talk about.
2. Your logic is fallacious. You sell your views as "truth". The process of getting a set of facts to seek for truth enlightens one by itself and lets one understand the point of view of other people. You deny the possibility from the very start. In that case, you're no better than a member of a religious sect or the church during the medival ages. They believed, the belief alone was enough..
3. Please open a socialism thread and stop derailing this one. With people like you, we won't get anywhere. The thread has got a certain topic name. The content should be related to the topic.
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Post by El Gunner Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:12 pm

1. I've been engaging in the essence of the discussion throughout this thread. First it was racial outrage regarding your case of the new Ariel casting choice. And then it naturally progressed to discussions of left vs right, as things always seem to do on this forum.

2. Who are you to decide my logic is fallacious Laughing God? my logic is the basis of critical reflection, and it has been made clear by many intellectual scholars ranging from quantum physicists, mathematicians, and educated authors. I can literally pile up a list of resources for you now of people that say the exact same thing i just explained to you, from Chomsky to Foucault to David Foster Wallace, the list is endless. I've done it plenty times before on this forum. But you'll just say again that i'm derailing your thread

3. I don't need to do that because we've already had those discussions before many a time, and i already know mostly where others stand on the topic. SO yes i can leave you to your thread, but i can tell you, you will get nowhere with your discussion except for your own little dopamine fixes of going back and forth over liberalism and conservatism.
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Post by Hapless_Hans Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:37 pm

It's the typical way of rightist snowflakes to whine around because they don't get their way completely tbh

"Oh, you think your life matters? How OBNOXIOUS, stop it with that PC crap"
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Post by Babun Fri Jul 03, 2020 6:18 pm

@El Gunner wrote:1. I've been engaging in the essence of the discussion throughout this thread. First it was racial outrage regarding your case of the new Ariel casting choice. And then it naturally progressed to discussions of left vs right, as things always seem to do on this forum.
It's called derailing a thread..
@El Gunner wrote:
2. Who are you to decide my logic is fallacious Laughing God? my logic is the basis of critical reflection, and it has been made clear by many intellectual scholars ranging from quantum physicists, mathematicians, and educated authors. I can literally pile up a list of resources for you now of people that say the exact same thing i just explained to you, from Chomsky to Foucault to David Foster Wallace, the list is endless. I've done it plenty times before on this forum. But you'll just say again that i'm derailing your thread
The essense of a discussion is to exchange ideas in order to convince the other party about the own point. Refusing the discussion from the very start and assuming one is right before anything else is logical fallacy. By your logic, there's no need for you to be here on a "discussion board".
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/de/worterbuch/englisch/discussion
@El Gunner wrote:
3. I don't need to do that because we've already had those discussions before many a time, and i already know mostly where others stand on the topic. SO yes i can leave you to your thread, but i can tell you, you will get nowhere with your discussion except for your own little dopamine fixes of going back and forth over liberalism and conservatism.
You don't have to and shouldn't leave me in my thread. The discussion board is to open to everyone. I challenge you to defend your views in a proper manner, with arguments. It's up to you whether you conduct yourself in a proper manner. As mentioned before belief alone killed enough people during the course of history (Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Christianism, Islam, Judaism etc.). We don't need more of that..

@Hapless_Hans wrote:It's the typical way of rightist snowflakes to whine around because they don't get their way completely tbh

"Oh, you think your life matters? How OBNOXIOUS, stop it with that PC crap"

Why are you triggered much? Maybe, I hit a nerve Very Happy Snowflake? Let me think about it Laughing


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Post by El Gunner Fri Jul 03, 2020 6:28 pm

what do you believe in Babun?
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Post by Arquitecto Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:25 pm

Aye lets just blame capitalism, elites and "inequality" and not a being choosing to be autonomous for their own future but blaming individuals who earned their money by the sweat of their brow.

Capitalism is great, end of. If the polities that ruin it are controlled it'll be even better and taking down elites will serve no one nor are they the enemy.


Societal victimisation is a form of aggrandizement and there is a reason why Communism failed and always will. Society to government to the world owes you or I nothing. I challenge anyone to take self autonomy and realise money is not just about material but how it buys you freedom. And nothing tastes sweeter.


The root of evil is in the individual, not a collective storm of oppressive force.
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Post by Thimmy Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:33 pm

I don’t get the impression that there are any right wingers on this forum. I certainly don’t identify as right-leaning, myself. I thought of myself as quite a liberal, progressive, when I first joined these forums. Nowadays, liberals and progressives are pretty much the same thing. But hey! Let’s continue to talk about how much better the left is than the shameful and whiny right! Or we can scrap the sides idea, as suggested, and call them the non-binaries hmm
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left vs right views Empty Re: left vs right views

Post by El Gunner Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:14 pm

@Arquitecto wrote:Aye lets just blame capitalism, elites and "inequality" and not a being choosing to be autonomous for their own future but blaming individuals who earned their money by the sweat of their brow.

Capitalism is great, end of. If the polities that ruin it are controlled it'll be even better and taking down elites will serve no one nor are they the enemy.


Societal victimisation is a form of aggrandizement and there is a reason why Communism failed and always will. Society to government to the world owes you or I nothing. I challenge anyone to take self autonomy and realise money is not just about material but how it buys you freedom. And nothing tastes sweeter.


The root of evil is in the individual, not a collective storm of oppressive force.


unbelievable.

how can you ever champion the thought that one can be autonomous for one's own future when you don't even know what tomorrow holds for you, there are variables - infinite possibilities. And more importantly, how can you dismiss that there are collective aspects to life and that we cannot have an influence over those. We can change our ideals and value systems, and so too can we change society and lay the grounds for a more harmonious existence between people, outside of just chasing money. There is nothing wrong about working for compensation, but with it must come a sense of collective unity and equality in society - not inherently capitalising on the misfortunes of others/other communities/other countries.

You keep bringing up communist examples from the past? But this world has actually never realised and achieved communism. Pure communism. Global communism.
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