Mikel Arteta Sack Watch

Let's just say with Henry being out of job atm, Let's hope Arteta doesn't get sacked

all i know is hella knives will be out when we lose to Spurs next weekend, and even more so if we lose the tie against Olympiakos

RealGunner wrote:Let's just say with Henry being out of job atm, Let's hope Arteta doesn't get sacked

oh damn
good point

forget everything I said, trust the process

@Hans

Experience? Yes Arteta has none. I didnt say at any point he is the ideal guy for the job. I am saying really only 2 things, 1 of which it seems you agree.

1. There wasnt an obviously better option at the time, minus 1.

2. His results currently are not great, but I personally see some good signs and their lack of quality is a bigger problem than anything Arteta does from a tactical point of view.

I see a team with good ideas but poor execution, not the other way around. Good players who are let down by the system. We can agree to disagree on this if you like, but thats my view.


Yes, they are not 10th by accident. The results are about fair given their performances. But, as I said, if they finish 6th I will not come here saying he is terrific. The season is not over, if they had won yesterday for example (should have, they gave the goal away and should have had a pen) they'd be 4 points away from 6th place.

You make yet another ridiculous claim. I watch Arsenal pretty much every week they dont clash with Barca, recently Chelsea or City. Basically, I watch every 2nd Arsenal PL game at least.

Which is it, I dont watch enough games or I love Arteta for his 4 years in La Masia I saw almost none of?

Just because we dont view the situation the same doesnt mean you watch more.

I dont think Arsenal have played great football by any metric, statistically or eye test. But sacking him seems incredibly stupid to me, especially when the main games are still to be played. He has done many good things to build on, improvements are needed tactically for sure but to ignore the horrifically weak squad and blame the coach is lazy.

Look how many individual errors they make, Xhaka alone is responsible for something like 8 points dropped already. I read he has played half a dozen 90 minutes in a row. Normally I would blame the coach, but when you remember the other options are Elneny and Cebellos you point to the obvious. The squad is full of mediocre mid table players and unless you play some unwatchable anti football, you will get mid table with those players.

Wenger would get 4th?How? His final year they got 6th with a more useful Ozil, Ramsey, younger Auba and Laca before he became poor man's Giroud. He did so while suffering many humiliations.

El Gunner wrote:Dani is on one hey we're never finishing 6th this season. The only reason you feel those Leicester players will get into our side is because they have been impressive in a regime and system at Leicester that works for them. Bring those guys to Arsenal under our current regime, they'll be potty as fuck

No, I genuinely think all of those players are superior to the ones I named. Even Ndidi, Evans and Schiemchel would challange for a starting position. Sure, in a bad system they play worse than they play now. But no way those Arsenal players perform like this in Rodgers or any other good system

Which of these would you disagree with?

Fofana over Luiz.
Justin over Bellerin.
Soyuncu over Mari/Holding
Teielmans over Xhaka
Vardy over Lacazette
Maddison over Smith Rowe/Odegaard.

I dont think Arsenal finish 6th either, you make far too many errors at both ends and someone other than Auba and Saka have to do something consistently.

The Franchise wrote:

2. His results currently are not great, but I personally see some good signs and their lack of quality is a bigger problem than anything Arteta does from a tactical point of view.

Happy to see you back, Franchise I’ve raised that argument for several different managers, GL does not compute. It always boils down to either one of: Arteta is the GOAT. Or he sucks and needs to get out ASAP because everything around him is corroding and they can do better. Be prepared for it

Would love to hear your thoughts on the «Liverpool are just going through the end of a cycle» claim, as well.

Fofana over Luiz.
Justin over Bellerin.
Soyuncu over Mari/Holding
Teielmans over Xhaka
Vardy over Lacazette
Maddison over Smith Rowe/Odegaard.

i haven't seen much of Fofana personally to comment but im definitely taking Soyuncu
Anything is better than Bellerin
Tielemans over Xhaka? Sure, maybe, if you factor in my utter disdain for Xhaka, but Tielemans is nothing to boast about to be honest. I'd much rather we get Bissouma and a more attack minded CM to partner Partey
Vardy over Laca, of course
Maddison over ESR, hell no!!!

Thimmy wrote:

The Franchise wrote:

2. His results currently are not great, but I personally see some good signs and their lack of quality is a bigger problem than anything Arteta does from a tactical point of view.

Happy to see you back, Franchise I’ve raised that argument for several different managers, GL does not compute. It always boils down to either one of: Arteta is the GOAT. Or he sucks and needs to get out ASAP because everything around him is corroding and they can do better. Be prepared for it

Would love to hear your thoughts on the «Liverpool are just going through the end of a cycle» claim, as well.

Thanks Thimmy, good to see your still here.

Liverpool? Well, I think it might indeed be the end of the cycle. But that doesnt mean Klopp HAS to go and the team has to torn down and started from stratch.

I think Pool do need to make more changes to the team for sure though.

I would say they need to use the midfield more to play through. Its almost as they are in the team only to make off ball movements to open space for others while most of the connections are from the fullbacks. Its a tough way to play, obviously it has worked for them but I dont see the sharpness from the 2 fullbacks and front 3 to pull it off.

I would also say, they can do with a real striker. Salah playing there is interesting, but I do think a real 9 would be better for them than Firmino who novelty it wearing off. I think Jota absoutely should start, but that doesnt solve the striker issue. So does this mean selling Salah to fund this rebuild? I think it might be a good time but its incredibly risky because he is still a top player.

I dont know if this all means they need to change system or not, but when I watch them I think those are key issues and the Van Dijk/CB injuries are a big deflection which doesnt explain so many other problems.

But all that said, does this all mean Klopp has to go? That sounds too much for me.

What are your thoughts?

El Gunner wrote:

Fofana over Luiz.
Justin over Bellerin.
Soyuncu over Mari/Holding
Teielmans over Xhaka
Vardy over Lacazette
Maddison over Smith Rowe/Odegaard.

i haven't seen much of Fofana personally to comment but im definitely taking Soyuncu
Anything is better than Bellerin
Tielemans over Xhaka? Sure, maybe, if you factor in my utter disdain for Xhaka, but Tielemans is nothing to boast about to be honest. I'd much rather we get Bissouma and a more attack minded CM to partner Partey
Vardy over Laca, of course
Maddison over ESR, hell no!!!

Fofana is better than Soyuncu as far as im concerned. He is going to be an elite CB soon, im sure.

I think Tielemans is a good player, he has added goals to his game and he rarely gives the ball away. But yeah, I think its safe to say him or Ndidi are better than Xhaka which was the main point.

I cant find anything to suggest ESR is better than Maddison

^^he may not be currently better, but i believe he has a higher ceiling

Hello @The Franchise, good to see you back. Hope you have been safe from COVID and whatever malaise life threw at you.

I would differ on the notion that Liverpool has or approaching an end of the cycle.

True, a bulk of our core players have reached their peaks but none is truly downhill.

I think we needed a change or at least a mixing in the way we play. Klopp actually planned for that but things have just gone horribly wrong.

Thiago, Keita, AOC, Shaqiri, Origi and Takumi could have provided a different dimension to way we play. But the whole lot, for varying reasons, have been largely spectators. So we didn't just miss out on the difference they are suppose to make, the usual lot have to play week in and week out and have been run to the ground.

We have played 42 games so far this season. If the mentioned lot were fruitful in just 8-10 games, that would have put us in way better situation and left a lot in the tanks of the regular players.

Same to you.

Well, it seems what we are saying isnt too different. I dont think Pool need to sack Klopp and get rid of 8 players.

I just think they cannot continue playing the same 433 which heavy emphasis on fullback creativity and the inside forwards making up so many goals. The midfield need to be used more and some fresh ideas/players will help change the way they play.

I think Jota and Thiago are a step in the first direction and they should add to that. I think this situation is a much bigger one that the injured defenders.

Arsenal were 8th when Emery got sacked, with 1.38 points per game.

Now they are 9th with 2 games played more than the rivals, 1.40 points per game.

Enough with the double standards. Farteta OUT.

When, for crying out loud

WHEN?

Artbeta IN

Myesyats wrote:should have never sacked freddie ljungberg and ostracized Ozil

Turns out being assistant coach to Guardiola for 3 years doesn't make you a good coach

Guardiola is brilliant but also has always had the world's best talent available.

I'd be very curious to see what he could do with this Arsenal or this Tottenham.

Trust in the process

CBarca wrote:Guardiola is brilliant but also has always had the world's best talent available.

I'd be very curious to see what he could do with this Arsenal or this Tottenham.

They'd be up there

Unfortunately, the evidence is piling up against Arteta. Yeah the players suck but he's not playing in a way to get the most out of what he's got. He's playing in a way that could be successful if he had certain players available to him, which is useless to Arsenal right now.

13 defeats is terrible, but what makes it even more grim is the home record. Arsenal have scored 19 goals in 17 home games. 8 of those games they've drawn blanks. Compared to other seasons:

16/17 - 1 game without scoring at home
17/18 - 1 game
18/19 - 1 game
19/20 - 1 game...

And those weren't great Arsenal teams, but at least they could score goals. It's especially bad given how much Pepe, Lacazette and Aubameyang cost the club to sign, and how reliant the team is on Saka and Smith Rowe for creativity.

Weirdly, there were odd games where the attack did click. 3-1 vs Chelsea, 4-0 vs West Brom, 2-1 vs Spurs, 4-2 vs Leeds, 3-0 vs Sheffield United. And the Europa League has been a prolific campaign. Why this isn't happening in the league, at home, is a mystery to me. There's attacking potential there, but it's not utilised.

This was a problem under Emery as well. Emery's team lacked structure, gave up shots for fun and struggled to score consistently. Arteta brings structure and his team gives up fewer opportunities but offensively they're wildly unpredictable at best and flaccid at worst. As a result, Arsenal have lost a lot of games by tight margins this season: 1-0 vs Villa, 1-0 vs Burnley, 1-0 vs Everton, 2-1 vs Wolves, 2-1 vs Everton at Goodinson, 1-0 vs Leicester... all games Arsenal might have won with a fully functioning frontline.

Which tells me that the team isn't far away from turning it around... as long as it has a coach capable of getting consistent performances out of it. Signs are this isn't going to be Arteta.

Their defense and midfield dont link well with their players up front? Dont watch them much but whenever I do it seems to be the case. They try to play and build and dont success at all at the battles, vs the good sides anyway.

They build from the back pretty well, all things considered. It's not a problem with getting the ball out of defence into midfield, but transitioning from midfield to attack that's the big problem.

As a strategy, Arteta likes to bait the press by keeping the ball at the back and then using combination play to get it forward. But this is a difficult thing to pull off consistently without having some really good players, which Arsenal don't. It's not something Arsenal can rely upon to score goals regularly.

The problem is, there's no alternative. For example, I think Arsenal's front players have good physical qualities. They're quick, have decent movement off the shoulder, decent dribbling and shooting abilities. But Arsenal don't like playing the longer pass into the channel where these guys can stretch teams. They look to play through the thirds a lot of time, with players who don't always show for the ball or move to make space others. Guys like Auba and Pepe aren't the sort who come inside to receive a pass and link-up play. They wait out wide and then come in when they can run onto a pass and shoot, but Arteta doesn't set the team up to make use of that. You don't see Arsenal making space and pulling players out so Pepe and Auba can be 1v1 against a defender. Instead, you see players standing around and waiting for the ball.

Certainly not going well. Europa is the only possibility now, but it seems very unlikely they could beat Man Utd.

I think he started with good ideas which have not been expanded upon. The build up is for the most part good, but it is one of the most controllable areas for a coach to manage to some degree. What Jay has alluded to, the play from the middle 1/3 upwards is a big issue which I am surprised hasn't been better figured out.

Also, worrying is that Arsenal started with the intention to apply heavy pressure to the first line of the opponent, but this has gradually been curtailed and more often (or perhaps just the games I watch) I see a passive mid block.

I stand by my comments, teams like Leicester have player for player superior players and I think Rodgers is a really high level coach who I am not surprised that teams like that are above them. But my critique was not on the basis of results, rather the progression of the team and how they play and this has really stalled out.

What I dont understand, is the team selection. Do certain players have in their contract a minimum amount of games or minutes? Because it seems like players are not selected 100% on merit. For me, the squad itself is not complete at all but it compounded by some very strange selection choices at times.

No way they beat Man Utd. Artbeta is finished

Perhaps Pep will be looking for a new challenge if he wins treble with Man C? Allegri also available

BarrileteCosmico wrote:Artbeta IN

Myesyats wrote:No way they beat Man Utd. Artbeta is finished

Artbeta  

The Franchise wrote:Certainly not going well. Europa is the only possibility now, but it seems very unlikely they could beat Man Utd.

I think he started with good ideas which have not been expanded upon. The build up is for the most part good, but it is one of the most controllable areas for a coach to manage to some degree. What Jay has alluded to, the play from the middle 1/3 upwards is a big issue which I am surprised hasn't been better figured out.

Also, worrying is that Arsenal started with the intention to apply heavy pressure to the first line of the opponent, but this has gradually been curtailed and more often (or perhaps just the games I watch) I see a passive mid block.

I stand by my comments, teams like Leicester have player for player superior players and I think Rodgers is a really high level coach who I am not surprised that teams like that are above them. But my critique was not on the basis of results, rather the progression of the team and how they play and this has really stalled out.

What I dont understand, is the team selection. Do certain players have in their contract a minimum amount of games or minutes? Because it seems like players are not selected 100% on merit. For me, the squad itself is not complete at all but it compounded by some very strange selection choices at times.

He picks players who train well, apparently. It's why Xhaka is undroppable and Elneny gets more games than a player of his ability should. Might be why Willian got so many starts, too.

Meanwhile, he came out and said in an interview Martinelli has to "learn to deal with the disappointment of not being selected" and has benched him despite his energy and directness being one of the main reasons for the team's improvement in January. Then you have Pepe who has actually been playing pretty well recently but has been in-and-out the team a lot. Nelson and Nketiah were kept at the club in Jan instead of loaned and have barely seen the pitch.

Tierney being out obviously doesn't help because he's literally the only left back in the squad so he's playing Xhaka there for his left-footedness rather than Cedric. He could put Saka back there but he's so valuable on the right of the attack he can't be moved right now.

He kinda picks the team the same way Emery did: constantly changing things up to stumble on the right combination because the squad is so messily put together it's not obvious who to play.

I was thinking about this squad earlier and think it suits a 4-4-2/4-2-2-2 pretty well. That'd get Lacazette and Aubameyang up front together, allow Saka and one of Smith Rowe or Odegaard to come in off the flanks and open space for the full-backs. They already defend in this shape, but this way they can avoid having Auba track back to his own penalty area.