La Liga Discussion 2017/18 part 3

Firenze wrote:losing to Sevilla just strengthens my Madrid ties ahead of the CL final

I mean Montella isn't there but I know that feel

You actually going for Madrid in the final?

I was just beginning to feel like our Loserpool hate had been the beginning of a new GL duo. We've been through a lot this past season. This is unforgivable though

YNWA, Salah is my dad

CBarca wrote:

Firenze wrote:losing to Sevilla just strengthens my Madrid ties ahead of the CL final

I mean Montella isn't there but I know that feel

You actually going for Madrid in the final?

I was just beginning to feel like our Loserpool hate had been the beginning of a new GL duo. We've been through a lot this past season. This is unforgivable though

YNWA, Salah is my dad

Hala Unique

GL's Thanos is going to conquer the CL final

Cruijf wrote:

Doc wrote:Because that's all Madrid won by, luck and refereeing decisions. Surprised you didn't end it with refdrid after that line.

I agree, to some extent, that us fans would more remember teams that entertained us the most. Actually, yes, I would agree fully with that. But who actually would remember City's run in this year's CL campaign? Or Barcelona's? Liverpool would be remembered since they made it to the final but unless they win it, Madrid would dominate the headlines with 3 CL titles in a row.

The WC has a different mindset as it just spans a month, the CL is all about the winner. If you asked me, Dynamo Kiev played way better football that Bayern or Utd but Utd won it and everyone remembers that. Depor, Super Depor mind you should have really made it to the CL final Porto eventually won, played some great stuff too along the way. No one remembers that.

Just saying, CL is different.

I don't actually think the CL is different. Does anyone talk about Inter '10 anymore? Don't think I've heard them mentioned in years.

Yes you will be remembered and talked about for being the first to retain the CL, and even more so when you become the first to win 3 in a row. What I'm saying though is that there will always be a bias against you simply because of the way you played. We have very short memories and when we look back and try to rank the top-tier teams we go off the emotions. And honestly the only emotion this Real team gives me is annoyance.

To be clear though I do agree with you when you say teams like Bayern, Shakhtar, etc. won't be remembered. It's not that every team that plays well is remembered. It's that among the top tier the team's that are looked back upon most fondly and hailed as the greatest of all time are the ones that played with style.

Nick keeps taking great pleasure in reminding us that Real has a better trophy haul than Sacchi's Milan but that really just illustrates my point. Sacchi's Milan won enough to be remembered but that wasn't what elevated them to the status they have, it was the way they played. Their trophy haul was nothing special as he rightly points out. This Real has won more than enough to be remembered, but they simply aren't entertaining enough to neutrals to be elevated in the same way.

You mean they didnt mention a team that won the competition 8 years ago? How odd... like how they’re mentioning Bayern and Chelsea who won it after inter?

Mr Nick09 wrote:I dont think we would be remembering Sacchi's Milan if they had not been a ruthless machine that dominated european football, i really dont. So this is were i disagree with you.

Winning a european cup, in this era, with the frequency we have had recently, takes considerable mental resources, fight, ability to overcome adversity and to come together as a group. We played all kinds of styles over the past few years and we mainly dominated everyone. That's our legacy, that of a complete team with an all around style that overcame everything that came its way.

Since when has overcoming adversity become a negative quality? Barca played all their entertaining tiki taka vs Roma, yet they were rekt. City? same thing. Pep's Bayern? we mauled them.

And really, all this debate was sparked because of the game vs Bayern, which is what i find ridiculous, and now i read barca fans posting theories how all we have done beating teams in the past 5 years dont matter, about beautiful football and all the nonsense pep and cruyff pumped in their brains.

You might as well come out and say that pep football is the only thing that matters and is worth remembering, save us some time.

This team has entertained me a lot winning la decima, la undecima, and la duodecima. you are not entertained? i am

There is no other way to go about it. We are on the verge of winning in 5 years nearly as many CLs as the likes of Barca and Bayern have won in their entire history. They must be butthurt. It's clear as day that their insecure players and fans are slowly dying on the inside when watching our success and downplay it with the "didn't win enough la ligas" "didn't play beautiful" shit and stuff like that. But that's what happens when you are out of their reach. People only rain on your parade because they're jealous of your sun and tired of your shade.

4 in 5 years, 3 in a row, this is completely out of their depth and will always be.

When they were winning and were on top of the world all we had to say was congrats. And they were humble and respectful and classy and nice and all that. But people show their true colors when things are not going their way.

Let’s take a look at how this history will be viewed in the future, say 25 years from now. You young pups will be old farts like me, probably not even watching anymore. The new young pups will go to google to find out who won and low and behold there will be two teams that stand out Real Madrid 58-62 and Real Madrid 14-18!

They are two different competitions. But let's be honest, if winning CHL is so easy how come no other team won it consecutively and is about to win it the third time? This should be enough!

Real is ruling the world in the past few years, PERIOD!

It is not their fault we have baboons managing our club and wasting a chance to capitalize on Messi. They have been smart, they are ruling.

Yes, you can perhaps say they are not as good as Sachi's Milan or Pep's Barca for missing out on local league competition, but they did something else that neither Pepcelona nor Milanachi did. So focus on La Liga here cuz RM are CHL kings and this cannot be undermined by their (lack of) success in la Liga!

futbol_bill wrote:Let’s take a look at how this history will be viewed in the future, say 25 years from now. You young pups will be old farts like me, probably not even watching anymore. The new young pups will go to google to find out who won and low and behold there will be two teams that stand out Real Madrid 58-62 and Real Madrid 14-18!

That's exactly how it works

Hell history will even be kind to Benzema thanks to his CL stats and being part of this Madrid era.

Mr Nick09 wrote:Doc dont you understand that no one caresabout 2 Cls in a row because WE did it?

Don't be cute. This is not funny, and it's not material for banter.
The reason you won a 2nd CL in a row, and are in a 3rd final, is because you were massively advantaged by referee decisions. You were gifted this final, as you were gifted the last semi.
You were by far the worse team in the games vs us, and under correct ciircumstances you would not have progressed. You progressed merely because we were massively robbed.

You think this is nothing? You think the reason you are not recognized as history's greatest team is spite and jealousy?
People are not blind. The reason we don't recognize it is because you're actually not that great a team, you clumsily stumbled onto large parts of your trophy collection with the active help of referees. Either that, or you actually actively paid UEFA. Pick your interpretation, I can't say for certain which one it is.

Don't @ me, I'm not in the mood to discuss this. This is not funny, and you shouldn't go around gloating to people you cheated.

It's not my fault is your strikers  shoot the ball straight at keylor, or keylor makes saves, however you want to read that.

Your post is basically summed up to this, people are blind just like the example below, these are the type of things held against us.

Spoiler:

Or Benatia assaulting our player and Buffon calling it a crime when it's a clear pen. There is 0 reason we care about your grievances

We were a better team because we scored when it mattered and we protected our lead by defending and stopping you from scoring. This is kind of simple.

I actually find it embarrassing you did not win because you are right, this is the weakest this squad has been for their 5 years run. It's gonna be the end of an amazing run, and you choked when it mattered. Go @ at Rafinha and clown of a GK for handing this final on a platter to us.

you should tear up, you will be the media darling and best in the world next fall as you win all games in bundesliga though

Mr Nick09 wrote:I dont think we would be remembering Sacchi's Milan if they had not been a ruthless machine that dominated european football, i really dont. So this is were i disagree with you.

I actually agree with you here. I'm not saying we only remember them because they played well. What I am saying though is that winning trophies isn't enough. A few years before Sacchi's Milan did their double in '89 and '90, Nottingham Forest did the exact same thing, and won the league once in that period as well. So in other words, they achieved the exact same trophy haul as this Real, and comparable to Sacchi's Milan. Does anyone today give a flying *bleep* about Nottingham Forest? Does anyone even mention them in discussions of best team of all time? No.

That's all I'm saying. Yes trophies matter, you have to win to even be in the conversation. But when it comes to ranking teams and talking about which is the greatest of all time your marginally superior trophy haul means jack. It comes down to the viewers at the time and whether they actually felt like they were watching something special. How you're remembered is not some precise function where you input the number of trophies you won and output a certain legacy. The emotions matter, the play style matters, winning convincingly matters. Like I said in the moment winning is all that matters and you can enjoy that. But you will never achieve the romantic status history has afforded Pepcelona, Sacchi's Milan, Cruijff's Ajax/Holland, etc.

Winning a european cup, in this era, with the frequency we have had recently, takes considerable mental resources, fight, ability to overcome adversity and to come together as a group. We played all kinds of styles over the past few years and we mainly dominated everyone. That's our legacy, that of a complete team with an all around style that overcame everything that came its way.

Agreed. I admire your team for your accomplishments, I just hate the way you did it and I think history will remember that.

Since when has overcoming adversity become a negative quality? Barca played all their entertaining tiki taka vs Roma, yet they were rekt. City? same thing. Pep's Bayern? we mauled them.

Like I said playing well isn't all that matters. Pep's Bayern played well but lost so they'll be forgotten. You guys won but played awful, and history will remember that.

And really, all this debate was sparked because of the game vs Bayern, which is what i find ridiculous, and now i read barca fans posting theories how all we have done beating teams in the past 5 years dont matter, about beautiful football and all the nonsense pep and cruyff pumped in their brains.

It's not just the Bayern game, we've hated you for the last 5 years for the way you've consistently won while playing awful football.  

You might as well come out and say that pep football is the only thing that matters and is worth remembering, save us some time.

Complete nonsense and you know it. Where was all this salt when Bayern won in 2013? Or Milan won in 2007? Nowhere, because neutrals enjoyed their football and respected them. This has nothing to do with Pep vs Real, it has everything to do with Real playing awful football and getting the help of luck and bad refereeing.

This team has entertained me a lot winning la decima, la undecima, and la duodecima. you are not entertained? i am

I'm sure it has and I don't fault you for that in the slightest. There isn't a single poster on GL who doesn't want what you guys have achieved for their own team. So obviously you guys are loving this and rightfully so. All I'm saying is the neutrals don't, and the neutrals write history.

Hapless_Hans wrote:

Mr Nick09 wrote:Doc dont you understand that no one caresabout 2 Cls in a row because WE did it?

Don't be cute. This is not funny, and it's not material for banter.
The reason you won a 2nd CL in a row, and are in a 3rd final, is because you were massively advantaged by referee decisions. You were gifted this final, as you were gifted the last semi.
You were by far the worse team in the games vs us, and under correct ciircumstances you would not have progressed. You progressed merely because we were massively robbed.

You think this is nothing? You think the reason you are not recognized as history's greatest team is spite and jealousy?
People are not blind. The reason we don't recognize it is because you're actually not that great a team, you clumsily stumbled onto large parts of your trophy collection with the active help of referees. Either that, or you actually actively paid UEFA. Pick your interpretation, I can't say for certain which one it is.

Don't @ me, I'm not in the mood to discuss this. This is not funny, and you shouldn't go around gloating to people you cheated.

Take a step back and breathe, please.

Just caught up on the Barca and Real games. So happy for Dembele and what amazing talent on show when he shows it, its really exciting to watch I still remember the contrast between him and Deleufeo, who Im glad Barca realized quickly just werent good enough, its like Dembele plays at 2nd or 3rd gear by his talent alone blitz the players with the more average talents. Hope he continues to develop and translate that into the big games and integration into the team. Iniesta and Messi combo for that beautiful goal was also great to enjoy, not gonna see that kinda thing much next season....

That Real game was a bit of a joke, Loooool that ref is so clearly one of the worst ever and Flo's ref, the decisions hes given vs us and bias towards Real is unreal, he doesnt even try to hide it Looooooooool It was a strange game apart from that anyway, Sevilla players getting cramps towards the end? Whats with that? Ramos doing all the FKs and pen was also funny to watch

The best team in history supposedly is gonna come THIRD in the league ROFLMAO

Harmonica wrote:Lmao Rakitic thinking he's Messi, and pulls it off.

Rakitic is still very underrated by a lot of ppl, even Barca fans unfortunately, I really appreciate the guy, he does have his weaknesses, but they are few and he is a class player. The thing is hes been asked to play out of position and needed to change and adjust his game a lot since hes joined us, and he works his socks off every game to cover so much defensively which a lot of ppl dont seem to realize. The run he did he has always been capable of doing if he plays for a lesser team in a more attacking position, but he lets others do it at Barca, and not mentioned his shooting, long passing and play making abilities.

In fact we should make an appreciation thread for him sometime And when Iniesta leaves and Busquets continues to get older, Rakitic will probably get more recognition that he deserves.

Hans, brother mine, i may have to gargle with fairly concentrated sulphuric acid after posting this but this year Madrid were simply head and shoulders above you. Last year it was all refdrid but this year only reason Bayern got knocked out is because you were very ordinary all around the pitch.
Madrid indeed got a outside help but it was from your own players and from not refs as usual. Evryone except maybe Ribery played decent at best and still was shockingly bad infront of goal.
Madrid were superior team in both legs by miles.

Hapless_Hans wrote:Don't be cute. This is not funny, and it's not material for banter. The reason you won a 2nd CL in a row, and are in a 3rd final, is because you were massively advantaged by referee decisions. You were gifted this final, as you were gifted the last semi.
You were by far the worse team in the games vs us, and under correct ciircumstances you would not have progressed. You progressed merely because we were massively robbed.

You think this is nothing? You think the reason you are not recognized as history's greatest team is spite and jealousy?
People are not blind. The reason we don't recognize it is because you're actually not that great a team, you clumsily stumbled onto large parts of your trophy collection with the active help of referees. Either that, or you actually actively paid UEFA. Pick your interpretation, I can't say for certain which one it is.

Don't @ me, I'm not in the mood to discuss this. This is not funny, and you shouldn't go around gloating to people you cheated.

I think it's time for you to sit down and let the bitter truth hits you like a truck: You're no longer relevant in Europe and haven't been ever since Heynckes left you.

Every single year people tout you as one of the favorites to win the CL and every single year you get roflstomped beyond recognition and into oblivion. Frankly, I don't even know why you're still being considered elite.

So you can blame the refereeing mistakes all you want, but truth of the matter is, you no longer have a squad capable of challenging the elites for the CL.

You have faced Madrid 3 times in the last four years alone and you lost all of them; one of which was 5-0 in agg. How many times are you going to blame the referees for your failures? Is it our fault that your strikers can't hit the broad side of a barn?

Stop blaming everybody for your mistakes. You got beat by Madrid again. Swallow it and move on.

If Bayern aren't relevant in Europe, then every team bar Madrid aint. What an incredibly stupid thing to say.

Heynckes didn't actually leave Bayern, he was pretty much ushered out the back door for Guardiola and kinda forced Juup's early retirement. According to Viva anyway.

Also, Madrid didn't cheat, lol.

Every CL winning team has had favorable calls. In a knock off competition where games are won by mere margins these favorable calls have an exponential effect, but I don't really blame any team for getting them, it could easily happen the other way around. That being said they do deter from the achievement of winning it.

What Cruijff is saying is hardly controversial and very correct

History will remember Madrid for these years. However, people who watched it will also recall a couple fortunate semifinals, a lot of lackluster play (and some good football, too), some easy draws, some fortunate injuries (Neymar, 1/2 the Bayern first team) etc. This Madrid team, the way they played, and their CL campaigns will not go down as particularly memorable in and of themselves.

And that adds to what BC has said. This happens for all teams that win the CL, for the most part. Within recent history (the last decade or so), I can count Barcelona 2011 and Bayern 2013 as the only truly dominant teams. For all the others, you can point to many champions having a good amount of luck at some point, or some easy opponents, or being kind of unimpressive at times while still managing to go through.

So Madrid is not at all unique. All of this is the truth, however.

Madrid fans will hope that eventually the people who did watch the team will die off or forget, and that will probably happen eventually.

Those "people" will remember it like i remember the referees cheating chelsea out of some games vs Barca, or denying obvious penalty calls to Arsenal vs barca in CL

Oh wait, i dont

Mr Nick09 wrote:Those "people" will remember it like i remember the referees cheating chelsea out of some games vs Barca, or denying obvious penalty calls to Arsenal vs barca in CL

Oh wait, i dont

Yeah we do. We remember Barca got blatantly, criminally favoured by the refs vs Chelsea in 2009, we remember what happened vs PSG. Why do you think the respective thread about the Real-Bayern semi was called 'worst ref performance since Ovrebo'?
Results are not an amnesia-inducing drug.

Being favoured by refs is what you have in common with Barca.
I don't have to explain to you though what are the differences between that Barca team then, and yours now, do I?
You know them very well, else you wouldn't have to lobby so hard for some kind of legacy for that team of yours. People would give credit on their own.

Hang on, Barca gets no where near the amount of ref calls like Real do Looool, dont make it like we are in the same position, we are no Flo when it comes to buying refs

Just an example we were we would have won that CL Inter won, with the last goal incorrectly offside otherwise we would have won on away goals. That means we would have won three CLs in a row

The amount of fouls Messi and some of our players suffers and the refs dont call is incredible, compared with the things Real get away with.

Just needed to point this out.

BarcaLearning wrote:Hang on, Barca gets no where near the amount of ref calls like Real do Looool, dont make it like we are in the same position, we are no Flo when it comes to buying refs

Just an example we were we would have won that CL Inter won, with the last goal incorrectly offside otherwise we would have won on away goals. That means we would have won three CLs in a row

The amount of fouls Messi and some of our players suffers and the refs dont call is incredible, compared with the things Real get away with.

Just needed to point this out.

You're actually using the Inter game as an example of injustice against Barça?  Inter had a man sent off for a Busquets dive and Pique scored an offside goal, you literally couldn't ask for more referee help.

There is a reason people were calling you UEFAlona you know.

The Demon of Carthage wrote:
I think it's time for you to sit down and let the bitter truth hits you like a truck: You're no longer relevant in Europe and haven't been ever since Heynckes left you.

Every single year people tout you as one of the favorites to win the CL and every single year you get roflstomped beyond recognition and into oblivion. Frankly, I don't even know why you're still being considered elite.

So you can blame the refereeing mistakes all you want, but truth of the matter is, you no longer have a squad capable of challenging the elites for the CL.

You have faced Madrid 3 times in the last four years alone and you lost all of them; one of which was 5-0 in agg. How many times are you going to blame the referees for your failures? Is it our fault that your strikers can't hit the broad side of a barn?

Stop blaming everybody for your mistakes. You got beat by Madrid again. Swallow it and move on.

Ok, let's take it one point after the other.

- 'The bitter truth'? We're 'no longer relevant' in Europe since 5 years? Ok

- people were touting us as 'favourites'? Who were these people, may I ask?

The Demon of Carthage wrote:

urbaNRoots wrote:Fortunately or unfortunately (depending on your perspective), Madrid will not face Pep‘s Bayern this time.

Exactly what I was thinking. Heynckes is way smarter than Pep and they are without a doubt the favorite for this tie.

Oh right.
Meanwhile, I was the one telling you we're nothing special and have grandpas, and noone else, on the wings.

- 'roflstomped' by your team, really?
If we were roflstomped by a team, it was the team of officials UEFA sent to ref the matches. On the pitch, our semi-finished, rather pedestrian and depleted team (minus Neuer, Vidal, also Alaba, Boateng, Robben...) dominated you at will.

You don't seem to get it. I don't get mad about losing. I know the limits of my team, and it is a game we're talking about. I've always calmed down after defeats, it's not a problem.
I get mad about being clearly and blatantly *bleep* over by the referees, repeatedly, and I won't calm down or forget this time. And it's not the place of Real fans to tell me to calm down.

We can talk about about things like performances, missed chances, blunders like Ulreichs's, deserved or undeserved, credit, and glory, and all these things AFTER it's been established that the playing field is level.
You won the semis going downhill, so you shouldn't get credit. You certainly never will from me.

you need to stop talking to us about imaginative calls that should have gone your way or 50/50 decisions. You actually could not score because your forwards were trash. you had a lot of chances to score, you took almost none of them. You lost the tie in your home stadium, such a shame.

we take the credit, as i said, even when we were not at our best, we beat you.

dont @ me

Bayern have a finishing problem for the past 2 years. Last year it wasnt the refs that lost you the game it was the refs that kept you in for extra time with an own goal that actually ended up being offsides. Bayern need an overhaul but looks like they're doubling down on robbery for another year