Italy election

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Post by rincon Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:00 pm

and so, little over one year later, Italy is once again without government.

Salvini tabled a vote of no confidence for Conte, the primer minister, effectively dissolving the Lega+M5S coalition. Conte lashed out against Salvini in the senate and resigned.

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Post by Art Morte Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:08 pm

Was expecting these news since they formed that government tbh. Between the opinion differences on the economy (or government spending), the EU and immigration, Italy doesn't seem to have a majority government to form that would truly work together.
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Post by rincon Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:21 pm

M5S as a populist anti-establishment POS party had refused to form any coalitions with the left. Lega as the populist right wingers had a more amicable approach towards coalitions. Still they managed a way to seize more power by joining up with M5S in an absurd coalition of populism with no unifying position except that of disrupting the country.

This is the only way this could end.

Now both will turn around on their previous harder stance and seek more "traditional" coalitions with their side of the spectrum in an attempt to gain power.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:45 pm

So Brothers of Italy is even farther to the right than Salvini, correct?
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:29 pm

I'm the rare good news from Italian politics, Salvini Laughing
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Post by Robespierre Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:26 am

BarrileteCosmico wrote:So Brothers of Italy is even farther to the right than Salvini, correct?

Yes.
Honestly it's enough to know some their militant to get the stink
Fratelli d'Italia maintain historical roots with MSI - as the symbol - the tricolore flame on logo  ( MSI was old Italian party born in post-war on the ashes of Fascist Party.His leader was Almirante, an old gunman of partisans.   In 1994 MSI turned into " Alleanza Nazionale",led by Fini, and new party declared to abandon the ideological references to fascism in order to qualify as a political force legitimized to govern. The swerve towards a " modern Right" gave good results to the party. But then Fini chose to merge with Forza Italia for a new party, Popolo della Libertà. AN dies, PDL will finish soon too , just Forza Italia will be back .
At that point former AN politicians announce to create a new   right wing party ( but not Fini, out of politics after some problems with justice) , and it is Fratelli d'Italia.
Yes so I consider it farther  to the right than Salvini because their historic background is the post-fascism . Still they maintain an ambiguous attitude ( I mean, they can't admitt to be fascist because it's against constitution , but they don't celebrate 25th April , their militants divert questions on Mussolini ...). Lega hasn't same background, it's a transformation created " ad hoc" from Salvini.
He realized that there was a wide space on the right of political system, and he launched on it.
I didn't like even old Lega Nord of course, but it was another type of party. Not a party of national right, but regionalist.
It had embraced different political experiences. Many came from old PCI too, Bossi was / is a declared anti-fascist.
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Post by iftikhar Tue Sep 22, 2020 5:54 pm

Brothers of Italy have won a regional presidency in what's supposedly a leftist stronghold. What's your analysis @Robespierre???
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Post by Robespierre Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:07 am

The response is simple :  it is obsolete to talk about  red strongholds    in Italy in 2020.

It's normal since political system has been turned upside down.
During Cold war era Italy had the greatest Communist Party of the whole Europe, the only country where the Communists ( PCI ) overpowered on Socialists (PSI)

In 1991, after tne end of USSR, Italian Communist Party (PCI) was dissolved and re-launched as the Democratic Party of the Left ( DS).
Socialist Party (PSI)  was even disbanded in 1994 as a result of the Tangentopoli scandals. ( Italy hasn't an important Socialist party so now)

In 2007 another radical transformation,  DS merges  with various centre-left parties  and it was born PD ( Partito Democratico).

The point is that - while a leftist could vote DS  (that party born from the ashes of Communist Party , not Communist anymore, but left wing surely)  , now he struggles to vote a party as PD ( I can confirm it ) , too much heterogeneous inside and honestly much more inclined to the centre than to left  ( it's official a centre-left party  . At least DS  was more to left than centre)

In addition to this weakness of the PD, well , the populist wave is very strong in Italy . It 's reflects on M5S ( an apolitical party, but it's basically the populism at its prime . terrible) and on a populist right wing.

the centre-right is moved to right because the egemonic party of the coalition is Lega now ( right  wing) and not Forza Italia (centre-right). So while tendency goes towards the centre from a side , it happens the oppiste on other other side

Having said that, defining Marche a " red stronghold" is just overrated.

It  is not " homogeneous" region , it has  some  red sides inside, right wing hadn't won for 25 years ...

but I mean, the only two real " red strongholds " in Italy are Tuscany ( the region where Florence is ) and Emilia Romagna ( the region where Bologna is )

And in fact, even in this period, when right wing is so strong in Italy while left wing undergoing decomposition ... Right party (Lega ) has  lost  both in Toscana and Emilia Romagna   while centre-left  (PD ) has won equally on both regions

And Tuscan candidat was even a weak candidate .... But simply Lega can't win in Tuscany.
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Post by iftikhar Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:15 am

Good brief, thanks. Just another point, if you don't mind,

Robespierre wrote:the centre-right is moved to right because the egemonic party of the coalition is Lega now ( right wing) and not Forza Italia (centre-right). So while tendency goes towards the centre from a side , it happens the oppiste on other other side
So the lefts are trying to take the central grounds vacated by the centrists/center-right!!!

If that's the case, then (correct me, if I'm wrong)

#1. The central ground has no appeal since it's the populists who are enjoying any surge. or

#2. The lefts have serious structural/leadership deficiencies to fill that central vacuum.
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Post by Robespierre Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:09 pm

-3 to APOCALYPSE
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Post by Robespierre Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:10 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:So Brothers of Italy is even farther to the right than Salvini, correct?
Robespierre wrote:
BarrileteCosmico wrote:So Brothers of Italy is even farther to the right than Salvini, correct?

Yes.
Honestly it's enough to know some their militant to get the stink
Fratelli d'Italia maintain historical roots with MSI - as the symbol - the tricolore flame on logo  ( MSI was old Italian party born in post-war on the ashes of Fascist Party.His leader was Almirante, an old gunman of partisans.   In 1994 MSI turned into " Alleanza Nazionale",led by Fini, and new party declared to abandon the ideological references to fascism in order to qualify as a political force legitimized to govern. The swerve towards a " modern Right" gave good results to the party. But then Fini chose to merge with Forza Italia for a new party, Popolo della Libertà. AN dies, PDL will finish soon too , just Forza Italia will be back .
At that point former AN politicians announce to create a new   right wing party ( but not Fini, out of politics after some problems with justice) , and it is Fratelli d'Italia.
Yes so I consider it farther  to the right than Salvini because their historic background is the post-fascism . Still they maintain an ambiguous attitude ( I mean, they can't admitt to be fascist because it's against constitution , but they don't celebrate 25th April , their militants divert questions on Mussolini ...). Lega hasn't same background, it's a transformation created " ad hoc" from Salvini.
He realized that there was a wide space on the right of political system, and he launched on it.
I didn't like even old Lega Nord of course, but it was another type of party. Not a party of national right, but regionalist.
It had embraced different political experiences. Many came from old PCI too, Bossi was / is a declared anti-fascist.

Spoiler : Brother of Italy will be the first Italian party on Sunday.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:54 am

Disgusting.
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Post by Robespierre Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:51 am

Italy election - Page 2 IMG-20220922-095034
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Post by Art Morte Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:34 pm

Immigration + refugees are taking Europe further and further to the right. The right-wing party in Sweden just had a great result and looks like Italy will follow. This is a dangerous path in many ways.
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Post by VivaStPauli Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:03 pm

Pretty sure the right-wing parties are taking Europe further and further to the right, not much the immigrants can do about being demonized by assholes IMHO.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:48 pm

Seems to me that it's just a reaction to a giant crisis hitting while left leaning parties are in power. In Italy the only party that grew a lot was the one that refused to join the technocratic unity government.
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Post by Myesyats Thu Sep 22, 2022 10:42 pm

Mfw my country is already run by right-wingers for 7 years straight..

Italy election - Page 2 Tigerbelly-what
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Post by Nishankly Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:10 pm

I come back and repeat the same drum that I have beating since years. Immigration is not a problem, culture is. Culture is not defined by skin as some here would have you think but I do understand the prejudice they would have against someone like me living in Europe.  

Take in 100,000 rural Americans refugees across 3 years in your fantasy EU country, you'd face the same problem where blasts would be replaced by school shootings with a vocal minority wanting Flat Earth and Jesus to be taught in school over Science whereas take in 20,000 privileged or hard working Asian immigrants and half of them are running your silicon valley and the worlds biggest corporates now, now take in 20,000 random New Zealanders no one has no problem because you tell me? Look at the exodus from Russia right now, it's a culture problem, so many vocal EU people don't want them even though they are white and blond with blue eyes or however the fuck you'd define a human being, but no one cared while taking in them 1 million Ukrainian refugees or more.

It's culture that you have a problem with, not immigration. I have been vocal about of being against unskilled immigration, if you bring people from cultures who do not know any better, which the Left is doing, then you are asking for their worst. The Right is on the other side are using these uneducated uninformed people as a source to light up that racist in you so that you hate everyone and we have the next bunch of civil wars leading to the world war.

Getting in the right wing does not mean you solve for immigration for one, best of luck with religion, anti Semitism, anti LGBTQ, anti humanity at the end as most Right ideologies are being forced down your throat until we get the next pass in "liberal" Europe which will be Left again when the 30% non political woke non voter youth come back and vote again, until the Left fuck up something again and then you have the Right back in.
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Post by Robespierre Fri Sep 23, 2022 8:00 am

The worst thing that creates the far right, and it happens everywhere, is to kill the future, blocking own countries into eternal nostalgic past that exsists only in their minds.
It becomes mortal for the youngest generationz that'd look forward conversely.

That past that works very good for the oldest generations that feel to have past their best years and so they rather look backwards.  Let's realize that Salvini (the Lega leader, the other far right party. Yes the Italian political pluralism present two very similar and "strong" far right parties) propones the reinstatement of compulsory military service. An anachronistic measure that could be appreciated just by "boomers".
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Post by Art Morte Fri Sep 23, 2022 8:59 am

VivaStPauli wrote:Pretty sure the right-wing parties are taking Europe further and further to the right, not much the immigrants can do about being demonized by assholes IMHO.


Parties don't take themselves anywhere, it's the people who vote that do. And when far-right parties are being voted into power because of immigration, then immigration must be reduced, otherwise there will be both short- and long-term problems; far-right politicians are usually rather dumb, selfish and incompetent, so having them in power is bad for the nation (Trump and Brexit being two excellent examples). In the long-term, if there continues to be a significant counter-reaction to immigration, but immigration also continues, that counter-reaction could eventually grow to violence and even (civil) wars. So, simply saying that "right-wing parties are the problem" is not tied to the reality of what's happening when they're enjoying such high levels of support among the population.
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Post by VivaStPauli Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:02 am

I was oversimplifying but that doesn't mean you're not wrong.
Well.

So let me elaborate:
I don't think immigration itself is any kind of problem.
Obviously, there is a limit to the amount of people a given society can coherently absorb. But even if the number of immigrants radically change society, it doesn't inherently have to be a bad thing.
(I'm also not as dogmatic on that I might appear, so to spell it out: immigration changing a society could also a bad thing, I just don't think it directly follows.)

Right-wing parties blaming immigrants for all of society's ails is what causes the far-right shift in society, not the immigrants themselves. If there wasn't a Johnson, or a Trump, or a Berlusconi, to blame anything they might've fucked up on immigrants, there might not be a shift towards far-right ideology.

So, while curbing immigration would certainly work in preventing that, you could also just curb the negative reaction to immigration and get the same result.

Just as an exercise in logic.

Once we get on the practicality of it, I somewhat agree with Nishankly, TBH; there probably is a limit to how much migration a society can take. I just don't think anybody is proposing that. It's usually far-right parties saying that center-to-left parties want mass immigration, when all they are usually saying is that we don't need as draconic measures as are already in place, since mass immigration for the most parts of human history isn't a real problem.

There're countries like the US and Germany that have absorbed huge quantities of immigrants, and their societal problems, while very real, probably don't have that much to do with immigration. Italy as well has a huge immigrant population, especially in the south, and I would argue that the country's bigger problems are old-fashioned white people nepotism and that mafia underbelly, all of which are just different expressions of one thing: corruption.
And no matter your opinion on immigrants, the shadiest Italian politicians I've witnessed have been right wingers.
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Post by Nishankly Sat Sep 24, 2022 12:34 am

The Right being annoyed is just the next phase as the world moves to a better place. The issues that right winged people in western countries have are actually with other fucking right winged people from the developing ones and/or the countries they come from (Right wing on Right wing issues, also very ironic and stand up comedy material as the immigrants are preserving their language, culture and traditions the exact things that the right wants lol but they want them fucks to become Left while hating the left), bringing in a right winged government will not change that only create divide. The Left have their share to blame here.

I am with you Viva (not directed at you but at racists as well) but here is where I lose you on what the left has done in Europe:

Another issue is that the Left became so laxed with their policies that they are allowing refugees which is absolutely correct but allowing simultaneously people escaping poverty which imho is dodgy af. There are countries (well off) with citizens that I will not name that are still going out of their way to get into Europe even after another country has blessed them in.

A lot of migrants are trying to move to Europe particularly from Africa and the middle east because they have no life in their home country because of their local governments and economic crisis. If someone will inform Asians that they can do this and get a clean slate out, you have another crisis on your hand. The question whether it's justified to drop everything and jump ship illegally and hope the next country you go to, takes you in purely since your country was historically oppressed, I leave it you to justify, but from a cultural perspective it is not, most of them will not integrate because of their strength in their beliefs, mostly drawn through religion which is another scourge for peace because they do not know any better and never have experienced anything different. Those countries are no longer at war and they no longer deserve to be treated at the same level globally (Europe is not the only place taking in immigrants if you didn't know) as countries in ruins. Filipinos do the same leaving their homeland to earn more money (31 billion USD globally sent back home through foreign workers), but their culture ain't hurting anyone. Unless you hate looking at how different they look to you.

What the Right now does, all of them for starters are a bunch of mentally unstable religious racist lunatics, and we have reached to a point where you need to talk shite to gather attention, these guys will bunch everyone in the same boat through their policies regardless and perpetuate/strong arm hate against anyone who does not look like them hurting everyone involved.

It's just a mess and that is why I mentioned the Right will not solve "immigration" because they will never look at how to solve multiculturalism, the right never has, all that they will do is make the right who are already fucking dumb, more dumber and the left more radical, something we have seen in the US in the last 10 years.
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Post by rincon Sat Sep 24, 2022 10:16 am

Art Morte wrote:Immigration + refugees are taking Europe further and further to the right. The right-wing party in Sweden just had a great result and looks like Italy will follow. This is a dangerous path in many ways.


Art Morte wrote:
VivaStPauli wrote:Pretty sure the right-wing parties are taking Europe further and further to the right, not much the immigrants can do about being demonized by assholes IMHO.


Parties don't take themselves anywhere, it's the people who vote that do. And when far-right parties are being voted into power because of immigration, then immigration must be reduced, otherwise there will be both short- and long-term problems; far-right politicians are usually rather dumb, selfish and incompetent, so having them in power is bad for the nation (Trump and Brexit being two excellent examples). In the long-term, if there continues to be a significant counter-reaction to immigration, but immigration also continues, that counter-reaction could eventually grow to violence and even (civil) wars. So, simply saying that "right-wing parties are the problem" is not tied to the reality of what's happening when they're enjoying such high levels of support among the population.

But this election in Italy is not a referendum on immigration, we have already had that in the past. If it can be reduced to one issue, which it can't, it would be the economic crisis accompanying post-covid and war recession.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Mon Sep 26, 2022 3:46 pm



The word immigrant was not stated once in this speech. Shes mostly railing against woke culture and financial markets (ie economic instability)
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Post by El Gunner Mon Sep 26, 2022 6:31 pm

that's all cool and nice, but she's acting as if we weren't already consumer slaves under all those traditional labels she mentions
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Post by Robespierre Mon Sep 26, 2022 7:17 pm

My nightmare.

I'll try to write something once I get over the shock
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