Vinicius Jr signs for Madrid

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Post by Myesyats Mon Jun 10, 2024 8:32 pm

For every convicted racist he turned another 1000 people racist with his behavior

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Post by farfan Mon Jun 10, 2024 8:36 pm

If diving and hounding refs is enough to turn you into a racist, you were already one to begin with Laughing
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Post by Arquitecto Mon Jun 10, 2024 8:45 pm

I am not a racist but his diving and plaguing the refs for justice is slowly bringing those tendencies to the surface to full form but in the end, I have black friends.
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Post by Doc Mon Jun 10, 2024 8:56 pm

farfan wrote:If diving and hounding refs is enough to turn you into a racist, you were already one to begin with Laughing

I watched the diving prime that was 201x Barca and Atleti and not once I thought of a discriminatory nor racist thought to any of its players.

So yeah, if Vini's antics make grown men become racist pricks, I believe you were already one to begin with.
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Post by Myesyats Mon Jun 10, 2024 9:08 pm

farfan wrote:If diving and hounding refs is enough to turn you into a racist, you were already one to begin with Laughing

Yeah probably true, there must be some underlying prejudice already there

But my point is that does it really make more good than harm the way Vinicius does it lol, looking at the massive groups of people hanging effigies of him and singing insulting songs, it makes it seem like he makes it even worse
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Post by McLewis Mon Jun 10, 2024 9:12 pm

Arquitecto wrote:I am not a racist but his diving and plaguing the refs for justice is slowly bringing those tendencies to the surface to full form but in the end, I have black friends.


See, that line of thought just doesn't hold up under scrutiny.

I vividly remember the Luis Aragones-Thierry Henry racism incident. What did Henry do or say to deserve being called a "black shit"? Aragones even admitted he said it to motivate Reyes, not because of anything Henry said or did.

If the racist tendencies are there, they will always manifest regardless of the situation. Vini was always going to come in for this type of abuse simply because he's a great footballer and he has the audacity to be very confident in his abilities. That's too much for a lot of people apparently.
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Post by Casciavit Mon Jun 10, 2024 9:31 pm

The issue with Vinicius being the face for the fight against racism is that he’s a diving hypocritical cry baby who riles up the crowd and opposition. He’s not a likeable personality. He also has that Bruno Fernandes thing where they are both incredibly ugly which makes everything they do slightly more annoying.

Now obviously his antics don’t justify racist retaliation. However, if you want to take on the responsibility of opposing them you have to realize you’re dealing with a low IQ population. Rival fans will always shit on opposing top players. They’ll insult your family, your partner, and your looks. Ronaldo would be called homophobic slurs and Messi would be called an autistic midget. Vinicius is always going to get abuse, but if he acted less like a twat the racial abuse may decrease.
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Post by Arquitecto Mon Jun 10, 2024 9:51 pm

McLewis wrote:
Arquitecto wrote:I am not a racist but his diving and plaguing the refs for justice is slowly bringing those tendencies to the surface to full form but in the end, I have black friends.


See, that line of thought just doesn't hold up under scrutiny.

I vividly remember the Luis Aragones-Thierry Henry racism incident. What did Henry do or say to deserve being called a "black shit"? Aragones even admitted he said it to motivate Reyes, not because of anything Henry said or did.

If the racist tendencies are there, they will always manifest regardless of the situation. Vini was always going to come in for this type of abuse simply because he's a great footballer and he has the audacity to be very confident in his abilities. That's too much for a lot of people apparently.


I am surprised you took what I said remotely seriously given it's purely satirical.

To me I find it pathetic the hecklers who are just one in thousands use the lowest hanging fruit to rile up a superstar who will eventually learn to use it against them by performing better out of pure spite.

Im a frequent critic of fan mentality and the self importance we give to ourselves on the scale of things and this is no different.
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Post by McLewis Mon Jun 10, 2024 9:52 pm

Instead he's taking the opposite tack and is turning the tables on the racists.

Serious Rorschach energy.

Placating racists has never and will never work.
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Post by Arquitecto Mon Jun 10, 2024 9:56 pm

That's also my point for Lasciavit is correct that he does bring it upon himself but why is a superstar supposed to curb his expression on field given his significance compared to the fans, just to avoid racism?

It'll come out regardless for they are the opposition as it is. Racism is the lowest hanging fruit akin to calling an old man a predator or making fun of someone mentally disabled and its a bit outdated to throw such at him for I do believe he is considerably more immune to it than last year.

Once again, speaks more volume on the crowd mentality than his own antics.
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Post by Pedram Mon Jun 10, 2024 11:38 pm

farfan wrote:If diving and hounding refs is enough to turn you into a racist, you were already one to begin with Laughing

"Don't defend yourself or i will become even more racist!!!!" Laughing

This is what Myesyats is basically saying.
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Post by Myesyats Tue Jun 11, 2024 12:10 am

Pedram wrote:
farfan wrote:If diving and hounding refs is enough to turn you into a racist, you were already one to begin with Laughing

"Don't defend yourself or i will become even more racist!!!!" Laughing

This is what Myesyats is basically saying.


You understand so very little my gosh :facepalm:
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Post by McLewis Tue Jun 11, 2024 1:50 am

Arquitecto wrote:That's also my point for Lasciavit is correct that he does bring it upon himself but why is a superstar supposed to curb his expression on field given his significance compared to the fans, just to avoid racism?

It'll come out regardless for they are the opposition as it is. Racism is the lowest hanging fruit akin to calling an old man a predator or making fun of someone mentally disabled and its a bit outdated to throw such at him for I do believe he is considerably more immune to it than last year.

Once again, speaks more volume on the crowd mentality than his own antics.


Vini just existing and being himself should never invite racism. That's not a problem he should ever be responsible for solving.

This is very much the same line of thought I've seen used to justify women being raped for wearing revealing clothing. I'm not saying you specifically are saying that, mind you. The mindset of Vini's racist abusers is very much up that same alley.

The accountability must always start with the racists/rapists, never their victims.
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Post by BarcaLearning Tue Jun 11, 2024 4:35 am

I get both sides, but there has to be a balance n both sides are responsible, not one side can just do whatever? Unfortunately there will always be a minority crowd in the low IQ football fans as Cas mentioned who will not care one bit n continue to do anything they want Razz Thats just the norm, fair or not, so I guess its up to the individual players like Vini what they decide to do with it.

Different topic but something similar that McLewis mentioend about some women wanting attention or whatever wearing little, but at the same time act like they are victims of it when men stare at them etc., prolly not much of that in the Western world but where I am it so common n I always felt its quite stupid lol
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Post by Casciavit Tue Jun 11, 2024 5:21 am

Look, no one is saying that Vini should just shut up and take the racist abuse. In fact, I'm actually a fan of his approach of fighting it back and wanting to 'torment' them. I agree that placating racists isn't typically the solution.

But I think we can all agree the goal is to decrease the incidence rate of these episodes. Now, the first step to doing so is to hand out strong punishments. The second step, and the more lengthy one, is to raise awareness and promote higher educational standards so Spaniards growing up don't view fan culture through that lens.

However, I also think Vinicus can contribute to a lower incidence rate by acting less like a prick. Why is there this perception that he only acts annoying when he's getting abused? This guy is consistently riling up the crowd, opposition players, and the opposition bench. If you want to act like a clown, well opposition fans are gonna make their voices heard.

I understand that some people may say "Well why does it have to be like that?" That's a great question. All I know is that you're not going to change this issue overnight. You have to deal with your reality. Football has such a tribalisitc culture, and heckling opposition has dated back for 100 years. Ultimately, you have a bunch of drunk stupid fans who are going to go for low-hanging fruit to throw you off your game. If you want to fight a war with those idiots well expect them to fight back too.

I'm not interested in football matches devolving into the following: Vinicus acting like a clown -> some idiot in the crowd chanting a monkey noise at him -> Vinicius crying to the referee -> the match getting paused/suspended. So if you want to decrease the incidence rate of that occurring, then yes Vinicius can play a part by being less provocative and less douchey. You can argue that shouldn't be the case, and it shouldn't, but that's not the present reality we are dealing with right now.
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Post by Casciavit Tue Jun 11, 2024 5:40 am

Also multiple things can be true at once. Racist abuse should never be allowed and should be punished severely.

However, I simply don't believe the "Vinicus is a victim who just wants to play his football" narrative. The guy is a prick who likes being toxic during games. It's not a response to racist abuse, but he does it even when the opposition isn't clowning him.

He's not the first black player in Spain, and he's not the first top black player in Spain. I'm sure black players have heard racist abuse from them, but it's not as prevalent as it is with Vinicius. You have to ask yourself why that is?

I don't think him toning it down is the main solution, but why is it controversial to suggest that if he does it can help (even if just a little) in curbing the racist abuse from crowds? I feel like people have conflated his goofy antics as only occurring when he receives racist abuse, when that isn't the case at all.

You can claim that shouldn't be the case. I just understand the reality of dealing with tribalistic low-IQ drunk rival fans. They'll go for low hanging fruit, and they won't change their behavior over night. So if the goal is to reduce the incidence rate of those episodes, then Vini toning down his own goofy antics MIGHT decrease  the abuse even if it's just a LITTLE. Is that not worth an attempt?
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Post by halamadrid2 Tue Jun 11, 2024 6:05 am

Vini is hardly the first or the last footballer who is confident and likes to banter. How many times hasn't he been trolled by the opposition and we dont hear about it in the media. Nothing he does should EVER justify racial abuse. You don't even have to be as controversial as Vini to suffer racial abuse in Spain particularly. Just a few games before the end of the season Nico was racially abused by Atleti fans and he has the opposite personality to Vini.

People just don't like Vini and would justify everything that ever happened to him as self inflicted. I can't even believe that people are willing to take this road as if Vini is the only one who likes to joke about on the pitch. Incredible!
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Post by Nivash Tue Jun 11, 2024 11:17 am

What a provocative dick


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Post by Doc Tue Jun 11, 2024 1:35 pm

halamadrid2 wrote:Vini is hardly the first or the last footballer who is confident and likes to banter. How many times hasn't he been trolled by the opposition and we dont hear about it in the media. Nothing he does should EVER justify racial abuse. You don't even have to be as controversial as Vini to suffer racial abuse in Spain particularly. Just a few games before the end of the season Nico was racially abused by Atleti fans and he has the opposite personality to Vini.

People just don't like Vini and would justify everything that ever happened to him as self inflicted. I can't even believe that people are willing to take this road as if Vini is the only one who likes to joke about on the pitch. Incredible!

Right? When the media and fans in general (including my fav Joaquin) were laughing at him and having a time, no one told them to tone it down. No one told them stop being provocative.

Also, these arguments of Vini needing to tone it down always fail when other black men receive the same racist abuse from fans in La Liga who are, more often than not, no where near as asshatish as Vini. Was Marcelo provocative? What about Dani Alves? Eto only really hated Madrid so was he that provocative towards other teams? What about the 06 France team? After Spain lost to them, well, reports came out that Spanish fans hurled racist chants at said French team. Were they super provocative and needed to tone it down? Kameni, then Espanyol goalie, was he provocative? Both Williams brothers probably needed a course in being less provocative too I guess. German Burgos, now unemployed, decided to open his mouth and out came the words, "If it doesn't go well for him, he could end up at a traffic light" in reference to Spain's new golden boy, Yamal. Subtle yet effective provocation from young Yamal indeed.

No, there is no both sides, there is just one. If someone kicking a ball too well is causing you to be a racist prick, I believe you were already one to begin with.
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Post by McLewis Tue Jun 11, 2024 2:47 pm

Casciavit wrote:Look, no one is saying that Vini should just shut up and take the racist abuse. In fact, I'm actually a fan of his approach of fighting it back and wanting to 'torment' them. I agree that placating racists isn't typically the solution.

But I think we can all agree the goal is to decrease the incidence rate of these episodes. Now, the first step to doing so is to hand out strong punishments. The second step, and the more lengthy one, is to raise awareness and promote higher educational standards so Spaniards growing up don't view fan culture through that lens.

However, I also think Vinicus can contribute to a lower incidence rate by acting less like a prick. Why is there this perception that he only acts annoying when he's getting abused? This guy is consistently riling up the crowd, opposition players, and the opposition bench. If you want to act like a clown, well opposition fans are gonna make their voices heard.

I understand that some people may say "Well why does it have to be like that?" That's a great question. All I know is that you're not going to change this issue overnight. You have to deal with your reality. Football has such a tribalisitc culture, and heckling opposition has dated back for 100 years. Ultimately, you have a bunch of drunk stupid fans who are going to go for low-hanging fruit to throw you off your game. If you want to fight a war with those idiots well expect them to fight back too.

I'm not interested in football matches devolving into the following: Vinicus acting like a clown -> some idiot in the crowd chanting a monkey noise at him -> Vinicius crying to the referee -> the match getting paused/suspended. So if you want to decrease the incidence rate of that occurring, then yes Vinicius can play a part by being less provocative and less douchey. You can argue that shouldn't be the case, and it shouldn't, but that's not the present reality we are dealing with right now.

100% agree on your suggestions for how Spain can systematically fight this. Here's something else that will help as well: Diversity. Spain is still very homogenous. They need diversity at all levels of their infrastructure.

As for the rest of what you're saying: The Henry-Aragones incident again really debunks all of this. Black players can be completely humble and respectful and still receive racist abuse simply for being excellent footballers. I see this constantly in Serie A. There is absolutely no guarantee that Vini not riling up opposing crowds is likely to improve the chances of him avoiding being racially abused. He knows this and his logic (which I agree with) is likely "If they're going to do this regardless of what I do, why shouldn't I just be myself?"

Casciavit wrote:

He's not the first black player in Spain, and he's not the first top black player in Spain. I'm sure black players have heard racist abuse from them, but it's not as prevalent as it is with Vinicius. You have to ask yourself why that is?

This isn't as prevalent with other Black players because both their clubs and the leagues they play in were far less tolerant of any complaining about their abuse. This was true not just in Spain, but in all of the major European countries. These players have been told that racist abuse is a price of their fame and the millions they made. Many just accepted it and said nothing. They were warned that they would be subject to even more abuse by fans, the media as well as the governing bodies, much like Vini was when he first spoke out, if they rocked the boat. I don't blame any of them for choosing to stay silent, but I absolutely commend Vini for going a different, and much more vulnerable path. He may not be likable, but that's real fucking leadership.
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Post by El Gunner Tue Jun 11, 2024 6:00 pm

operation: make Spain more black
Laughing
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Post by elitedam Tue Jun 11, 2024 6:15 pm

I could be wrong, but I don't remember Vini having a reputation as an asshole before the racist abuse started, neither when he was here nor when he first got to Spain and was a meme.
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Post by Doc Tue Jun 11, 2024 6:31 pm

elitedam wrote:I could be wrong, but I don't remember Vini having a reputation as an asshole before the racist abuse started, neither when he was here nor when he first got to Spain and was a meme.

He didn't. His excessiveness came as a result of the abuse he received. Before that, you're right, he was basically a meme.
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Post by halamadrid2 Tue Jun 11, 2024 6:33 pm

When Vini was a walking meme nobody cared about him. It was only after he started to become WC that people had a problem with him and his skin colour

It all started with a dance. And from there it became a tradition to racially abuse Vini at away grounds
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Post by The Madrid One Wed Jun 12, 2024 12:08 am

There's a lot that could be said about Vini and the situation regarding racism and hatred against him, and in a way I am reminded of some of the disgusting things both Djokovic and CR7 have experienced, for example. He should study those cases. Would help him feel at ease with himself, I'd think. Last thing he should do is try to conform to or apease to the garbage spewed from his hateful detractors. Fuck. Them. He shouldn't feel like he has to act like a monk or like a role model or ask for forgiveness. He should be himself and hold his convictions, hopefully with great maturity and clarity of mind.

Having said this, for me, in relation to his peace of mind and his wanting to be an advocate, I think there's arguably a lack of congruency and balance with some of the things Vini is doing and saying.

"I am a tormentor of racists. May other racists be afraid, ashamed and hide in the shadows. Otherwise, I'll be here to collect."

“I think they need to talk less about everything I do.”  

People won't talk less about you if you're trying to be an advocate and if you're pretty confrontational to boot, especially if you're confrontational in a further polarizing, non conciliatory, and arguably immature sort of way. Actions on the pitch included. So he should be aware about that and congruent with that if that's how he's gonna act.

I definitely think he should be confrontational and confident, it's kinda necessary, particularly in the context of the vortex he's been swept into as a major public figure, but I just hope he can be smart, mature, serene, and constructive about it too. For his own sake.

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Post by El Gunner Wed Jun 12, 2024 7:37 am

comparing Vini situation to Djokovic and CR7 rofl
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