English Premier League '16-'17 Discussion - Part 5

Hapless_Hans wrote:

Glory wrote:

Spoiler:

Giggs do have a point. Just look at those pics. With Zlatan it is somewhat understandable. We all know he doesnt give a flying fk about the club and came to obviously tick the EPL box in his career and cos of that fat paycheck. But ddg?
You cant smile and exchange greetings after you have picked up the ball 4 times out of your post in a game. Even one of the goal they scored was his direct fault.

They know however bad they play they will be getting their millions.  

At least show  some respect for the fans who were outsinging the chelsea fans for the last 10 mins of the game even when we were getting battered down on the pitch. Dont mock their sentiments by being all jolly and laid back after you got a pasting. I understand some of them are NT teammates and everything but, even still.
And apparently they didnt applaud the away fans too after the game. Shameful to say the very least.

Modern footballers. A bunch of mercenaries.

Yawn.

Stop blaming your players. Di Maria was a mercenary too and too much pussy mentality for the PL and United. Schweinsteiger washed up and lost his legs. Rooney is a power crazy maniac who has the club as hostage.
Fellaini, Young, Valencia are scrubs and deadwood who need to be shipped off in the coming summer window 2014. And 2015.

The players are not the problem. Your club is. Doing everything wrong, in terms of consistency of coaching recruitment and squad development, that you can do wrong.
The players are just doing their best.

Of course, when they don't perform to their best, they're still getting more money from your clueless board than they could have gotten anywhere else

Sorry, whats exactly the point of this part of your post ?Y Anyway your post quality has gone down Hans. Has to say it.

And about players trying their best. They may be. I fault both players and Mou for this current slump. Some players are giving their blood and sweat for the club. Players like Herrera and Young and even Rooni (on the pitch at least) for that matter.
But not responding and appreciating traveling fans is sick. The part about smiling and jersey exchanging, I wasnt intending that as specifically a United bound issue. Thats more like a basic code of conduct you need to adhere to being a sportsman right ? Getting beaten that way and you need to be sad and angry not happy and chatty.

Glory wrote: Anyway your post quality has gone down Hans. Has to say it.

That's like the meanest thing that has ever benn said to me

There is no smoke without fire.

Meanwhile, Glory switched his allegiance to Spurs

I wonder if there is a correlation

Don't call me James wrote:

Onions wrote:

Don't call me James wrote:2 DM's in Dier and Wanyama. Both of them are probably the most hardcore specialized DM destroyers in the league and they are built like tanks. Think about it for a second they play every game with TWO DMs covering their defenders.

Spurs have yet to play a minute, let alone game with both Dier and Wanyama on the pitch as a DM pair. In fact most of the time, the system played doesn't allow for a 2nd DM (4-1-4-1). I also find it hard to believe that you're trying to make a case for either Alli, Dembele or Sissoko to be DMs, because everyone can see that they're simply not. I'm pretty sure you've just made this whole argument up in order to solidify your case, because we haven't used 2 DMs since AVB.

It's 4am and I have work in the work in the morning so this is the only part that I'm going to respond tonight.

Matchday 1: Spurs vs Everton

Kane
Eriksen-Alli-Lamela
Wanyama-Dier

Matchday 2: Spurs vs Palace

Kane - Jansen
Lamela---------Eriksen
Wanyama-Dier

Matchday 3: Spurs vs Liverpool

Kane
Eriksen-Alli-Lamela
Wanyama-Dier

Matchday 4: Spurs vs Stoke

Kane
Son-Alli-Eriksen
Wanyama-Dier

Matchday 5: Spurs vs Sunderland

Kane
Son-Alli-Sissoko
Wanyama-Dembele
Verton - Alder - Dier - Walker

Dier playing CB because Rose was out. So Dembele who is practically a tank of CM/DM himself playing next to Wanyama.

Dier got injured so missed Matchday 6. Came off the bench because lacking match fitness for Round 7 and 8.

Matchday 9: Spurs vs Bournemouth

Son
Eriksen-Alli-Lamela
Wanyama-Dembele
Rose - Verton - Dier - Walker

Dier playing CB because Alderweireld is injured. So Dembele who is practically a tank of CM/DM himself playing next to Wanyama.




So tell me did I make it up or did YOU make it up?



Should have stayed retired you thick *bleep*.

Yawn. Dembele was out for the first 4 matchdays because of a suspension so Dier filled in. Since then he has only played DM once, he is far from the first choice in that role.

While I agree that a specific system may mask players' weaknesses, specially in defensive positions or the goalie, you cannot make the system work with mediocre players all around.

I know defender and specially full-back quality has gone down over the years, but if we go by what "world class" should mean, it's basically that you're in the best players available at the moment, in the whole world. Most people wouldn't put someone like Koscielny in this group, but going back to defender quality of the years, he most definitely would count as one.

The same goes to those Spurs guys who I don't specially rate too much, but they do a good job, follow instructions and are solid players.

Let me tell you, playing two DMs or whatever does not specifically shield you from everything. If you really had two lumbering tanks, the usual DM who's bad on the ball and is pretty much a ball recycler, well, then your midfield would be constantly overrun (specially in today's game) and you would actually have more pressure on your CBs to playmake and obviously from a defensive standpoint as most of the time the ball will be under your opponents' control.

If you have an overly offensive system, it's even worse. Pep style, Arsenal or whatever mean high lines and exceptional positional sense, including the ability to pass and create because your high line will compress play and mean more players are in passing range involved in overall play.

So to conclude, every system puts defenders and goalies under pressure, from one way or another. It's basically why you don't win titles with shit defenders. You can go by a mediocre striker or maybe a mediocre creative department, but you're sure as hell not winning anything with shit defenders (or definitely not a shit system). They have to be good players at the very least.

It's why you put the poor players in goalie or defense when you play futsal, so they get all the blame and you flick and dribble to nowhere to shoot to the stands.

BarrileteCosmico wrote:

Yawn. Dembele was out for the first 4 matchdays because of a suspension so Dier filled in. Since then he has only played DM once, he is far from the first choice in that role.

Don't act bored when you are bringing the shitty argument into the conversation.

Dier was their starting DM the whole of last season. Then started this season playing the first 5 rounds as a DM next to Wanyama.

Call it what you will but Spurs play with a defensive double pivot (which they have done most of this season). Both of the double pivot roles are defensive for the millionth time. You could stick Harry Kane in there and his role would be defensive in that position.

So it doesn't matter if the pivot is Dier-Wanyama (which it has been for most of the season) or Dier-Dembele (which it was the whole of last season) or Dembele-Wanyama(which they have only done 2 times this season).

The fool Onion claimed they played a single pivot, they only did a twice this season due to injuries not because that's their preferred system.




And @Hopeless Hans if you don't watch Spurs and have no idea how they line up then you have no business shoving your nose into this conversation. Not everything is about you.

You cannot win this argument because I have all Spurs footage of this season sitting in front of me. I know exactly how they played and what their system was.

But you're claiming it's some sort of hyper defensive double DM system when it's clearly not. Yes Dier played alongside Wanyama, but only as a sub while Dembele was suspended and now rarely gets time there. It's a double pivot but one of them is a CM/AM. It's far more attacking than, say, the Mascherano-Xabi Alonso partnership for Liverpool. Considering that there is only one true DM and that they play a high line the CBs are not protected at all.

Alonso-Masch was a defensive double pivot.

And Spurs are doing exactly that. It's a defensive double pivot system.

I said it doesn't matter who the player is (Dembele is very marginally more offensive than Dier and Wanyama) when they play in that double pivot system their primary role is defensive.

2 seasons ago Spurs fans were crying at how negative Dembele was for a CM. He's not some sort of Modric or Eriksen that he's providing some unbelievable offensive creativity to their game.

Regardless the reason it was brought up was that having a defensive double pivot gives more defensive protection to the CB's. Which is true. And that's what Spurs do. I don't care if neither of them are true DM's (which is not the case) they are playing in that system.

what are you doing

and why

WHY

Let me worry about what I post and do, Hans.

Don't call me James wrote:Alonso-Masch was a defensive double pivot.

And Spurs are doing exactly that. It's a defensive double pivot system.

I said it doesn't matter who the player is (Dembele is very marginally more offensive than Dier and Wanyama) when they play in that double pivot system their primary role is defensive.

2 seasons ago Spurs fans were crying at how negative Dembele was for a CM. He's not some sort of Modric or Eriksen that he's providing some unbelievable offensive creativity to their game.

Regardless the reason it was brought up was that having a defensive double pivot gives more defensive protection to the CB's. Which is true. And that's what Spurs do. I don't care if neither of them are true DM's (which is not the case) they are playing in that system.

The same thing you say? i beg to differ, alonso is a completely different animal to dier or wanyanya.

personally it's the one thing i dislike about pochettino, he has insisted with that defensive double pivot structure, pretty much everwhere he went, and spurs in general are boring and don't move particularly well if they are not countering or running down your throat with their body builders

Onions wrote:firstly I want to apologize Don't call me James, I forgot Dembele's suspension at the start of the year. Secondly I'd like to say goodbye, because I'm never coming back to GL again due to embarrassment .

Pls don't, I actually felt like putting in time debunking James but you did a wonderful job.

Would be nice to have another person here who actually watches Spurs because the drivel on here sometimes is very high.

Alonso might be some other animal, But mostly he played in a defensive pivot alongside Masch similar to what Spurs are employing right now. Gerrard was allowed to roam free infront of them.

Point in case, scroll up 5 centimeters to see "Dembele marginally more offensive than Dier or Wanyama". I'll let Spurs being boring go because that's subjective and this season Spurs have been kinda boring. Last season tho

Mr Nick09 wrote:The same thing you say? i beg to differ, alonso is a completely different animal to dier or wanyanya.

personally it's the one thing i dislike about pochettino, he has insisted with that defensive double pivot structure, pretty much everwhere he went, and spurs in general are boring and don't move particularly well if they are not countering or running down your throat with their body builders

Obviously I'm not comparing their qualities just their roles in the system. Alonso-Masch pivot was one of the best in the world at that time. Made the CL final and was constantly challenging deep in knockout rounds. I'm the last person to be told what kind of animal prime Alonso was. One of my favorite Pool players ever.

Agree about Pochettino.

CBarca wrote:

Onions wrote:firstly I want to apologize Don't call me James, I forgot Dembele's suspension at the start of the year. Secondly I'd like to say goodbye, because I'm never coming back to GL again due to embarrassment .

Pls don't, I actually felt like putting in time debunking James but you did a wonderful job.

WTf are you talking about?

His whole premise was that Dier-Wanyama didn't play a minute as a defensive double pivot this season. As if I was making it up. I debunked the shit outta of that by proving that they actually played more than 50% of the season so far in that DM double pivot. And 2 other games where it was Wanyama-Dmebele (which isn't much different).

I accept his apology. He came at me claiming I don't watch Spurs where in reality he himself hadn't seen most of the games. I on the other hand have seen all of their 9 matches and have footage of all those games at my disposal to double check my arguments whenever I please.

I'm still waiting for the 5 idiots who upvoted his faulty post to apologize.

Speaking about animals that Alonso could be, Alonso was a GOAT imo

Yeah his apology is because you get to be only a little slightly right about Dier-Wanyama. They did start a couple times this season (I mentioned that in my post as well). The only reason they did though was because Dembele missed the first four through suspension and then got injured after his first appearance.

During the time in the EPL when Dier-Wanyama was a thing, it was Alli who was playing alongside Wanyama in Europe (though it resembled more of a 4-1-4-1). Since Dembele has come back, Wanyama and Dier have not featured alongside each other. They won't. Just like how Spurs didn't employ two DM's all of last year.

The logical conclusion of this is that due to injury and suspension, Dier-Wanyama became a stopgap solution. Poch didn't play two DM's last year, he hasn't in the majority of the games this year (and none since Dembele came back) and unless injuries strike again, he won't.

Your claiming Dembele is basically a DM is an easy out. He's not. He's a B2B CM. What's next, Vidal is basically like playing Busquets in a double pivot? Just because Dembele is defensively capable and not a liability doesn't make it the same as two DM's.

You haven't shown anything except an ignorance of Spurs which is what his post was about.

Nishankly wrote:Speaking about animals that Alonso could be, Alonso was a GOAT imo

CBarca wrote:
Would be nice to have another person here who actually watches Spurs because the drivel on here sometimes is very high.

CSpurs

Helmer wrote:Speaking about defenders: City paid £50m for Stones, Arsenal £35m for Mustafi, Chelsea £32m for Luiz, and Man U £30m for Bailly where as we got Matip for free, such a snip and he has been class till now.

Well done Heil. Triggered 3+ pages of 'discussion' on defenders and systems with 1 post. :/

And you sneaky little bastard, putting Mustafi there with the likes of seeming-flops like Stones, Luiz, and Bailly.

Luiz, flop?

Nah mate, he's the second coming of Beckenbauer in this system.

Don't call me James wrote:
And I also want an apology from two idiots who upvoted his post.

Don't call me James wrote:
I'm still waiting for the 5 idiots who upvoted his faulty post to apologize.

Lol and now its 6.

We can confirm Glory was the 6th one imo