Is there any hope for Dutch football?

I admit I edited my post. Several times actually.
And I just don't remember TFM as a special talent. Would be surprised if he makes it at United but of course you never know. At the moment I certainly don't want to imagine a Bazoer-TFM midfield

Madvillain wrote:

zigra wrote:

RealGunner wrote: if no then is this is the end?

What does that even mean?
Oh and what is it with this TFM hype @Glory?

(Btw what @Madvillain didn't mention is that if you know these players you'd be *bleep* depressed after reading that post as a dutch fan)

Depression hits you after you read my post or RG's? I'm not blind. We have *bleep* no where near the quality of players we had 20 years ago. But this whole generation with Sneijder, Van der Vaart (never really rated him, Quaresma-esque player with good technique combined with a shitty loser/indifferent personality) and Van Persie was hardly all that much better TBH. It's like I said, the talent has shifted to more defensive players. Back in '08 our defense was absolutely dire. André *bleep* Ooijer, Johnny Heitinga (FFS), an aging Van Bronckhorst, Joris Mathijsen... Mathijsen. Oh, and - I kid you not - Tim de Cler. Are you honestly going to tell me those guys are better than what we have in defense right now? We've got a very solid core of younger players with an experienced Vlaar as a back up. Miles better than 8 years ago.

After reading yours. I know there are some decent young players and decent defenders aswell. It's just that the names you mentioned. Davy *bleep* Pröpper. A 25 year old guy who you said is good enough to maybe join a top 15 club next season. Imagine that's your best hope for midfield? The best attacker who isn't a granddad is an almost 25 year old striker in the russian league. Decent squad players? Sure. But imagine building your team around these players.

zigra wrote:I admit I edited my post. Several times actually.
And I just don't remember TFM as a special talent. Would be surprised if he makes it at United but of course you never know. At the moment I certainly don't want to imagine a Bazoer-TFM midfield

I dont really understand that expression in this context. Can you clarify. He only came to the fold last season end and he's only 18. Its not like he's been around for 2-3 years to be termed 'I dont remember'.
Agreed playing 2 CDMs in MF wont be a good idea, so yea perhaps no to a TFM-Bazoer midfield.

Well it's all hypotheticals when you are talking about guys at the age of 20-25 who are still developping. And when I talk about top 10/15 clubs, I'm mainly referring to any team below Barça, RM, Atleti, Bayern, PSG and Juve. I really believe the guy could get into almost all EPL teams for example, after another good year and maybe a bit of bulking up. He's turned 25 this month, had a promising first year at PSV... I can feel positive about that.

Again though, we don't have any flashy, highly technical players, which makes it feel more like we are much worse than last generation than really is the case IMO. But what if Janssen keeps his development up as he's been doing (not that hard to imagine) and what if prime 27/28 year old Pröpper is a starter at a big club... With Strootman around and this defense I cannot be super negative and depressed. And that is coming from a half glass empty type of guy.

Glory wrote:

zigra wrote:I admit I edited my post. Several times actually.
And I just don't remember TFM as a special talent. Would be surprised if he makes it at United but of course you never know. At the moment I certainly don't want to imagine a Bazoer-TFM midfield

I dont really understand that expression in this context. Can you clarify. He only came to the fold last season end and he's only 18. Its not like he's been around for 2-3 years to be termed 'I dont remember'.
Agreed playing 2 CDMs in MF wont be a good idea, so yea perhaps no to a TFM-Bazoer midfield.

I know our youth players and TMF didn't look special when he left. I know he was young and all but still. Would be surprised but obviously it's not impossible.


@Madvillain
Guess we just have to disagree on how we rate these 3 players.. well 2. Strootman is quality but he has his own problems.

RealGunner wrote:Netherlands have always provided football with entertainment. Whether its with the greats like Cruyff, Van Basten, Bergkamp, Rijkaard etc or it's with the football they played which became an inspiration for many other clubs and countries. Dutch league hasn't been the best for some time now, however it still provided with players who played for top teams like Sneijder, Robben, Van Persie and Van der Vaart.  

However lately Dutch football seems to be going down a bottomless pit. They haven't produced a decent talent for a while and their international performances already declined them with the Euro16 participation and qualifying for WC18 might prove to be difficult if they don't improve on their results. Netherlands might as well be looking at back to back failure to qualify.

So the question is that will Dutch football bounce back? if yes then how? if no then is this is the end?

Dutch football has never been the best, and last time they were 5th Uefa coefficients, was like 15 years ago. Robben is the last dutch great, and he's few years from ending his career, best ever Dutch player in World Cup and nt in general. Can't see anybody fitting to his boots anytime soon, and even if they did, I don't see Dutch league being great again, when it wasn't even during Robben's time.

There are a lot of problems with Dutch football when you see a country with small population base like Belgium do so well. I think the fall of the competitive level of the Eredivisie was a reason but to honest how great is the Belgian league.

There has to be serious thought into how youth development is done. I don't see the high quality technical players. Depay was the most un-refined potentially top player produced. I mean look at the difference between his & Robben's 1st touch.

Looking at Dutch prospects -

GK - Zoet, Vermeer, Cillesen, Krul are all good players but have moderately acceptable to pathetic distribution n handling. Okay bunch I guess.

Defense - Loads of right backs but none the completely package. VDW, Janmaat etc are very good offensively but poor defensively. Tete is a beast defensively but does not have an attacking game. He is so young & I have high hopes but there is no complete player.

The LB position is garbage with no talent. Willems is the most pathetic defender I have ever seen. He can't defend n should be converted to a CM.

CB - Bruma is slow, makes stupid mistakes but is okay. De Vrij is a soft guy but decent. Blind is a very intelligent, not gifted but a good passer n okay player. Van Dijk is obviously the pick of the lot. I think the CB position is the best in years. Van Beek or Veltman pure talent wise are even better IMO. I am not worried, give these guys time, there could be a golden Central Back pairing or atleast a moderate one.

Midfield - Clasie the midget 30 min player or runners like Klassen or Wijnaldum who are good pressers, can score goals but are the problem of Dutch football. When did we start producing these kind of 10's who are so moderate in possession, technically, tactically? Bazoer is a good talent but technically? Propper is mediocre. Strootman is our main hope although he is slow, he is a top guy.

The loss of Ziyech stings, what a talent, he goes to a BL club for 20M next season & then to a top PL club for 60-70M in 2-3 years. The next Ozil imo. Only top talent to come out.

Attack - People like Dost & De Jong seriously? Janssen is decent, has grit & is continously improving. The ST problem maybe solved since RVP & Hunter have fallen off a cliff.

The most sad part is that are no wingers. We have to play absolutely horrible talents, 25+ mediocre guys like Narsingh because we have no one. The white kids dont even play football & if they do seem to have no skill compared to Van Basten or Robben etc. Where are the white wingers?

Promes is okay, can score goals. He is not an elite talent.

There is no Robben & will not be soon. Robben is the best Dutch player since Cryuff & one of the modern greats & has been amazing for the NT.

I have some hopes for the young players in the youth teams - Nouri, Van Beek(Ajax), Bergwin (PSV), etc. I hope we get a couple of elite players from this.

Oranje has to move from the Wijnaldum & Klassen type players - Look at the kind of players Germany n Spain are producing!

Eredividie experts with that onslaught of knowledge

this is why I love GoalLegacy, I can actually learn stuff about football

Harmonica wrote:

RealGunner wrote:Netherlands have always provided football with entertainment. Whether its with the greats like Cruyff, Van Basten, Bergkamp, Rijkaard etc or it's with the football they played which became an inspiration for many other clubs and countries. Dutch league hasn't been the best for some time now, however it still provided with players who played for top teams like Sneijder, Robben, Van Persie and Van der Vaart.  

However lately Dutch football seems to be going down a bottomless pit. They haven't produced a decent talent for a while and their international performances already declined them with the Euro16 participation and qualifying for WC18 might prove to be difficult if they don't improve on their results. Netherlands might as well be looking at back to back failure to qualify.

So the question is that will Dutch football bounce back? if yes then how? if no then is this is the end?

Robben is the last dutch great, and he's few years from ending his career, best ever Dutch player in World Cup and nt in general. .

You sure about that ?

I agree with most of what you said but there's no way we'll sell Ziyech for 20m or even 30m next season if he doesn't flop agree that it was a massive *bleep* up though. Guy would've played for the dutch NT.

Apart from that I really rate Riedewald in midfield and I'd replace van de Beek with de Jong in midfield for the talents.

Regarding the wingers you are completely right though that's partly down to bad luck aswell. Kishna was easily the most talented dutch player of his age group and he was a winger but he tore his ACL, recovered and tore the other ACL and all that as a youth player. Even after that he still was good enough for Lazio to buy him after one season for us but I just saw he had a massive injury again last season. I remember him in the youth teams and he was so damn good it's just a shame really. In the one season for us he showed stuff I haven't seen our so called top talents from the last years do. Ever.

jibers wrote:

Glory wrote:I mean why does that matter, him tagging or not tagging my name.

Look Glory if you want to come at me then just say it.

Unreal bantz jibes

What happened to Clasie? I thought he was supposed to be the Dutch Iniesta?

He's at Southampton. Doing ok i guess.

Don't think anyone said he was going to be the Dutch Iniesta though?

I'd need proof of that, else I have to call you out, ONCE AGAIN, for employing straw men arguments.

farfan wrote:

Harmonica wrote:

RealGunner wrote:Netherlands have always provided football with entertainment. Whether its with the greats like Cruyff, Van Basten, Bergkamp, Rijkaard etc or it's with the football they played which became an inspiration for many other clubs and countries. Dutch league hasn't been the best for some time now, however it still provided with players who played for top teams like Sneijder, Robben, Van Persie and Van der Vaart.  

However lately Dutch football seems to be going down a bottomless pit. They haven't produced a decent talent for a while and their international performances already declined them with the Euro16 participation and qualifying for WC18 might prove to be difficult if they don't improve on their results. Netherlands might as well be looking at back to back failure to qualify.

So the question is that will Dutch football bounce back? if yes then how? if no then is this is the end?

Robben is the last dutch great, and he's few years from ending his career, best ever Dutch player in World Cup and nt in general.  .

You sure about that ?

Oh they joy, incoming casual viewers whose perception is formed from casual delusion.

S wrote:What happened to Clasie? I thought he was supposed to be the Dutch Iniesta?

Stop trolling ffs

the dutch will bounce back. how many times have we seen arjan from greenhouse put out some recycled indica shit to win the HTCC. everyone says that's the end of the dutch breeders. then a few years later they give us some of the most tasty sativa on earth. never right the dutch off

I would just like to say that this is nothing new. The Netherlands have missed out on international tournaments before and have seen some pretty poor results inbetween great generations. The problem right now is that there's a gap between an extremely talented and well fitting generation (Sneijder, Robben, van Bommel, van Bronckhorst, de Jong and to a lesser extent RvP and Huntelaar) and a generation that lacks a real leader/star player. There are still some really good pieces in place now (de Vrij, Strootman, Janssen, Tete/Karsdorp, van Dijk) but some of the brighter prospects have yet to really step up and make good on their talent.

Of course the youth development issue is something that needs to be addressed (Ziyech being a prime example...Ajax buying players that hold down their youth and then playing shit football anyway, etc.). That all kind of came about because of the LvG vs. Cruyff school and the internal battle that it caused at Ajax, which ultimately seems lost because of the tragic passing of Johan (though PSV and Feyenoord seem set to gain from this).

As far as talented youth go...there's a lot to be hopeful of. Just off the top of my head Bergwijn, Nouri, van de Beek, de Jong (Frenkie), Eiting, de Ligt, Verdonk, TFM, Ake, Riedewald, Adekanye, Malen, Lang, Nunnely, Kluivert, etc. are really bright talents while others like Memphis, Vilhena, Boetius, Promes, Sinkgraven, Willems still have time to come good and are young among others.

It's really just a generational gap right now. Kind of weird to be asking about it in general really. The problems are obvious. Bad coaching, aging stars, nobody to bridge the gap at the moment. I expect to be one of the top NTs come 2020 again depending on the development of guys like Bergwijn, Nouri, van de Beek and co. Then it will be really nice. My dream team of 2020 looks something like this:


Keepers are a bit harder to project.

lol Curt just proving RG's point. That line up looks like it couldn't make any major tournament.

It's supposed to make a major tournament in 4 years, not now

Very troubling that not one of these names (yes even Strootman sadly) is not world class. The Dutch are usually pretty good for at least 2-3 each generation. I wouldn't so much call what's going on with the Dutch transitional more than a state of flux. Ajax and PSV will churn out talent because that's what they do and they do it really well. I really wonder what happened to a club like Feyenoord. They've been known to put out some rather good players (Kuyt and van Bronckhorst come to mind), but their latest player is Clasie? That's pretty rough.

I do think the Dutch are in between great generations though, as someone mentioned earlier. If there are signs the next generation has a diamond in the rough, he's well hidden at this point.

not one mention of Memphis

ffs

Guessing he has the Ryan Babbel vibe going for him with respect to people not mentioning. I and all have my doubts but I assume Utd fans would be more hopeful than most.

Don't call me James wrote:lol Curt just proving RG's point. That line up looks like it couldn't make any major tournament.

My guess is you've not seen 90% of those players play, or even know who they are.

McLewis wrote:Very troubling that not one of these names (yes even Strootman sadly) is not world class. The Dutch are usually pretty good for at least 2-3 each generation. I wouldn't so much call what's going on with the Dutch transitional more than a state of flux. Ajax and PSV will churn out talent because that's what they do and they do it really well. I really wonder what happened to a club like Feyenoord. They've been known to put out some rather good players (Kuyt and van Bronckhorst come to mind), but their latest player is Clasie? That's pretty rough.

I do think the Dutch are in between great generations though, as someone mentioned earlier. If there are signs the next generation has a diamond in the rough, he's well hidden at this point.

Strootman would be considered world class by now if not for his catastrophic injury. In that sense the Dutch have been very unlucky too, if not for injuries and a sharp decline from Sneijder, injuries to Robben and Strootman missing out on the last 2 years of football who knows what could have been?

That said all three of PSV, Ajax and Feyenoord have big talents coming up. What do you mean by diamond in the rough? Steven Bergwijn and Abdelhak Nouri for example have World Class potential pretty easily, not even "in the rough", along with a few others of the younger talents. There's already a strong spine to the team with guys like Strootman, Janssen and de Vrij while other younger players or "middle aged" players can be very good role players. They're just missing a spark right now that is there when Robben is healthy. The next generation has the potential to be as good if not better than this one if the right players pan out.

B-Mac wrote:not one mention of Memphis

ffs

I mentioned him. The talent and ability are there but his head is not. Only he can determine whether or not he'll live up to the flashes he's shown. He certainly has the ability to be a top end player.

Curtinho wrote:

Don't call me James wrote:lol Curt just proving RG's point. That line up looks like it couldn't make any major tournament.

My guess is you've not seen 90% of those players play, or even know who they are.

I haven't. And I can already tell you none of these scrubs will be anywhere near as good as the recent golden generation (Robben, Sneijder, RVP, VdV, Kuyt, Van Bommel etc) in terms of quality.

Until you realize that Adekanye plays for Liverpool and you claim him the second coming of Messi.

Either way, Bergwijn and Adekanye both have Robben like potential, and Nouri also has world class potential. Why do you even talk about something if you are completely ignorant to it?

Also the only two players who were/are really special from that generation were Sneijder and Robben. Everyone else was very good to just being a role player. Strootman for example will be better than any of the others that played with them. The team worked well together though for the most part aside from that petulant RVP, who was always better for club than country.

Curtinho wrote: Until you realize that Adekanye plays for Liverpool and you claim him the second coming of Messi.

The only kid with true WC potential in Liverpool academy is Ben Woodburn. So this Adekenya kid ain't making it, I'm sorry to say.

lol over the last 2 years you've hyped so many Dutch supposed 'wonderkids' that I've yet to see any of them actually make a name for themselves.

Btw you were sucking off Memphis since the WC and proclaiming him as the next great then he joins United and you start hating on him, so don't be hypocritical about my hyping of LFC kids.

I didn't see one mention of Strootman.