Is there any hope for Dutch football?
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B-Mac
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Re: Is there any hope for Dutch football?
I didn't see one mention of Strootman.
breva- First Team
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Re: Is there any hope for Dutch football?
I mentioned Strootman multiple times.
sure thing.
Such as? Most of the young dutch players I've mentioned are still only 18/19 or younger.
I was actually just making fun of you in general. You have no idea what you're talking about, you've never seen the players play. I was hyping Memphis before the WC -- that was just his coming out party to the rest of the world. The big issue with him has nothing to do with talent (see his Europa league games for United last season). It's a mental thing. Whether I like United or not he has all the talent to be a top player. Thankfully, since he's at United, his fame and early success seems to have gone to his head and he's more about dat lifestyle than focusing on football.
Don't call me James wrote:The only kid with true WC potential in Liverpool academy is Ben Woodburn. So this Adekenya kid ain't making it, I'm sorry to say.
sure thing.
lol over the last 2 years you've hyped so many Dutch supposed 'wonderkids' that I've yet to see any of them actually make a name for themselves.
Such as? Most of the young dutch players I've mentioned are still only 18/19 or younger.
Btw you were sucking off Memphis since the WC and proclaiming him as the next great then he joins United and you start hating on him, so don't be hypocritical about my hyping of LFC kids.
I was actually just making fun of you in general. You have no idea what you're talking about, you've never seen the players play. I was hyping Memphis before the WC -- that was just his coming out party to the rest of the world. The big issue with him has nothing to do with talent (see his Europa league games for United last season). It's a mental thing. Whether I like United or not he has all the talent to be a top player. Thankfully, since he's at United, his fame and early success seems to have gone to his head and he's more about dat lifestyle than focusing on football.
Curtinho- First Team
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Re: Is there any hope for Dutch football?
Robben like potential you say. Interesting since I remember Robben at that age and even from an untrained eye, you knew he was something special. So did Chelsea hence he got snapped up at the age of 20.
I don't doubt your knowledge on Dutch players, you seem to have a firm grasp on it but don't you think saying "Robben like potential" might be a lil too much?
I don't doubt your knowledge on Dutch players, you seem to have a firm grasp on it but don't you think saying "Robben like potential" might be a lil too much?
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Re: Is there any hope for Dutch football?
Bergwijn is 18 and won best player at the u17 Euros despite the Netherlands losing in the final. He's electric every time he's on the ball pretty much, and will most likely win a starting spot with PSV before the end of the season. Adekanye was at the Barcelona academy and spent a bunch of time on loan with PSV youth set up because of the issues Barca went through with regards to youth players (which was the only reason Liverpool were able to snap him up). He's actually more like Robben to be honest.
But, as with anything, keep in mind that there's a difference between having Robben like talent and realizing that talent. You have to have the work ethic and mentality to make good on that talent. Bergwijn seems to have a good head on his shoulders, but Nouri worries me a bit.
Keep in mind the football landscape has changed a lot and the Eredivisie is in a bit of a flux. Clubs like PSV and Ajax have actually been hindering the development of their youth competing for the CL money. Just look at the Ziyech/Sinkgraven situation and how bad de Boer was for them in general. I mean if guys like Nouri, van de Beek and Bergwijn played for any other club in the Eredivisie they'd likely have been starters already last year. Then the youngest of the talented players get poached and don't get their proper development and stagnate. Most of the really successful Dutch players played in the Eredivisie into their early twenties before moving on, but they were given starts early and allowed to grow and learn at a high level.
EDIT: Just to respond to the post above talking about my knowledge of the Dutch youth. My family is from the Netherlands and I keep in contact with a number of people that live there who pay more attention to the youth teams and see them in person more. They generally will tip me off to the up and coming players and then I'll get as much footage and information as I can. I know a couple people in France and Germany as well in a similar capacity but I'm much less interested there, but it's how I heard about guys like Ousmane Dembele, Eggestein, Dadachov, Mbappe, etc. I could give you a rundown on all of the most promising talents currently rocking around in the Netherlands I think down to 2000 borns.
But, as with anything, keep in mind that there's a difference between having Robben like talent and realizing that talent. You have to have the work ethic and mentality to make good on that talent. Bergwijn seems to have a good head on his shoulders, but Nouri worries me a bit.
Keep in mind the football landscape has changed a lot and the Eredivisie is in a bit of a flux. Clubs like PSV and Ajax have actually been hindering the development of their youth competing for the CL money. Just look at the Ziyech/Sinkgraven situation and how bad de Boer was for them in general. I mean if guys like Nouri, van de Beek and Bergwijn played for any other club in the Eredivisie they'd likely have been starters already last year. Then the youngest of the talented players get poached and don't get their proper development and stagnate. Most of the really successful Dutch players played in the Eredivisie into their early twenties before moving on, but they were given starts early and allowed to grow and learn at a high level.
EDIT: Just to respond to the post above talking about my knowledge of the Dutch youth. My family is from the Netherlands and I keep in contact with a number of people that live there who pay more attention to the youth teams and see them in person more. They generally will tip me off to the up and coming players and then I'll get as much footage and information as I can. I know a couple people in France and Germany as well in a similar capacity but I'm much less interested there, but it's how I heard about guys like Ousmane Dembele, Eggestein, Dadachov, Mbappe, etc. I could give you a rundown on all of the most promising talents currently rocking around in the Netherlands I think down to 2000 borns.
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Re: Is there any hope for Dutch football?
Who isn't rating Van de Vaart? I'm going to come at them ffs
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Re: Is there any hope for Dutch football?
Doc wrote:Robben like potential you say. Interesting since I remember Robben at that age and even from an untrained eye, you knew he was something special. So did Chelsea hence he got snapped up at the age of 20.
I don't doubt your knowledge on Dutch players, you seem to have a firm grasp on it but don't you think saying "Robben like potential" might be a lil too much?
I have to agree. It's easy to forget just how unmistakenly special Robben looked.
Also I would argue that the age of 17 or 18 is actually far too young to even make arguments based on 'potential'.
It's said so often, 'WC potential', about such young kids. I'd argue 98% never realize this alleged potential, at which point I'd say the very notion of sizing up potential becomes a bit rubbish.
IMO it makes more sense to look at players aged 20 than aged 17.
Come back if the Netherlands have a player that looks at 20 as Robben looked at 20.
Hapless_Hans- Forum Legend
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Re: Is there any hope for Dutch football?
Nah no way is 17/18 too early. 16 is easily old enough in fact. People just love to overrate youth players. EVERY scrub is rated as "can become a squad player at [insert random pl top 5 club]". If a guy actually shows talent you instantly have the masses calling him special and say he has wc potential. What a joke.
Oh and WTF is that supposed to mean? Nouri who declined massive offers for years now worries you?
Curtinho wrote:
But, as with anything, keep in mind that there's a difference between having Robben like talent and realizing that talent. You have to have the work ethic and mentality to make good on that talent. Bergwijn seems to have a good head on his shoulders, but Nouri worries me a bit.
Oh and WTF is that supposed to mean? Nouri who declined massive offers for years now worries you?
zigra- First Team
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Re: Is there any hope for Dutch football?
I think the problem here is kindergarden football & real life football are different. That is why most people in U-17 who are great dont have as good a career when they grow up. It is a completely different league. VDV was IMO one of the biggest talent & Sneijder was way worse than him but Sneijder performed much better on a consistent basis n in big matches for the NT.
I have seen Nouri, Van de Beek, Frenkie De Jong, Paal, Bergwijn n the rest n I think it is a promising lot but we had this kind of promising lot with Ola John, Elia n Promes n Depay as well & none of them came good.
Let's compare Bergwijn - He kis 18 now n will be 19 next month. The Eredivisie is horribly weak now n the PSV team in attack is pretty average. They have to play Narsingh at RW n slot a young ST like Locadia in the wing. Still Bergwijn can't break into the team n he is almost 19.
Robben was not only a starter at 16 but a top player. He transferred to PSV at 18 & became the best player in the Eredivisie n at 20 went to Chelsea n became one of the best players in the EPL. At 19 Robben made his debut for the senior NT & became an instant starter & in 1 year he was the best player for the NT in the 2004 Euros when you had a range of talent with VDV & RVP, etc coming through.
I dont think Bergwijn is in that level. I am not sure he is technically that good. He is not as fast. He is a better product than Depay as a winger as in his upper ceiling is higher IMO. But he can't even play 5-7 matches on a stretch for PSV? How many minutes?
Nouri IMO won't be World Class. I have been thinking about this long n hard. I had very high hopes of him but is he that level? I dunno. Cernie & Van Beek broke into the team, Nouri did not.
At this point Ajax will have Klassen & Ziyech starting every big match n possibly guys like Singraven n Bazoer as back-ups. There is no space for Nouri in this stacked line-up (of above average talent ex Ziyech). Technically tactically Nouri is okay. But what he done besides U-17. He is not very fast, technically he is okay but his end product is it that good?
BTW Vilhena also won U-17 best player or maybe U-19. That guy was a star. He looks a poor CM with moderate handling speed n technical ability such that he was experimented as a LB. I dont think anyone expects him to be anywhere near WC now.
@ Curtinho - I have watched the kid in Liverpool (maybe once or twice) you have talked about. He is a moderate talent IMO, not even potentially elite.
Depay IMO was never gonna be WC - Dunno who started this. Depay is the most technically poor potentially Top player (attacker) Oranje has produced. No elite speed, no elite vision, very average technically, bad 1st touch - I think he has to play as a ST in future where he can be very good because surely he cant be a Robben play LW/RW
I have seen Nouri, Van de Beek, Frenkie De Jong, Paal, Bergwijn n the rest n I think it is a promising lot but we had this kind of promising lot with Ola John, Elia n Promes n Depay as well & none of them came good.
Let's compare Bergwijn - He kis 18 now n will be 19 next month. The Eredivisie is horribly weak now n the PSV team in attack is pretty average. They have to play Narsingh at RW n slot a young ST like Locadia in the wing. Still Bergwijn can't break into the team n he is almost 19.
Robben was not only a starter at 16 but a top player. He transferred to PSV at 18 & became the best player in the Eredivisie n at 20 went to Chelsea n became one of the best players in the EPL. At 19 Robben made his debut for the senior NT & became an instant starter & in 1 year he was the best player for the NT in the 2004 Euros when you had a range of talent with VDV & RVP, etc coming through.
I dont think Bergwijn is in that level. I am not sure he is technically that good. He is not as fast. He is a better product than Depay as a winger as in his upper ceiling is higher IMO. But he can't even play 5-7 matches on a stretch for PSV? How many minutes?
Nouri IMO won't be World Class. I have been thinking about this long n hard. I had very high hopes of him but is he that level? I dunno. Cernie & Van Beek broke into the team, Nouri did not.
At this point Ajax will have Klassen & Ziyech starting every big match n possibly guys like Singraven n Bazoer as back-ups. There is no space for Nouri in this stacked line-up (of above average talent ex Ziyech). Technically tactically Nouri is okay. But what he done besides U-17. He is not very fast, technically he is okay but his end product is it that good?
BTW Vilhena also won U-17 best player or maybe U-19. That guy was a star. He looks a poor CM with moderate handling speed n technical ability such that he was experimented as a LB. I dont think anyone expects him to be anywhere near WC now.
@ Curtinho - I have watched the kid in Liverpool (maybe once or twice) you have talked about. He is a moderate talent IMO, not even potentially elite.
Depay IMO was never gonna be WC - Dunno who started this. Depay is the most technically poor potentially Top player (attacker) Oranje has produced. No elite speed, no elite vision, very average technically, bad 1st touch - I think he has to play as a ST in future where he can be very good because surely he cant be a Robben play LW/RW
footyfan01- Starlet
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Re: Is there any hope for Dutch football?
Curtinho wrote:I would just like to say that this is nothing new. The Netherlands have missed out on international tournaments before and have seen some pretty poor results inbetween great generations. The problem right now is that there's a gap between an extremely talented and well fitting generation (Sneijder, Robben, van Bommel, van Bronckhorst, de Jong and to a lesser extent RvP and Huntelaar) and a generation that lacks a real leader/star player. There are still some really good pieces in place now (de Vrij, Strootman, Janssen, Tete/Karsdorp, van Dijk) but some of the brighter prospects have yet to really step up and make good on their talent.
Of course the youth development issue is something that needs to be addressed (Ziyech being a prime example...Ajax buying players that hold down their youth and then playing shit football anyway, etc.). That all kind of came about because of the LvG vs. Cruyff school and the internal battle that it caused at Ajax, which ultimately seems lost because of the tragic passing of Johan (though PSV and Feyenoord seem set to gain from this).
As far as talented youth go...there's a lot to be hopeful of. Just off the top of my head Bergwijn, Nouri, van de Beek, de Jong (Frenkie), Eiting, de Ligt, Verdonk, TFM, Ake, Riedewald, Adekanye, Malen, Lang, Nunnely, Kluivert, etc. are really bright talents while others like Memphis, Vilhena, Boetius, Promes, Sinkgraven, Willems still have time to come good and are young among others.
It's really just a generational gap right now. Kind of weird to be asking about it in general really. The problems are obvious. Bad coaching, aging stars, nobody to bridge the gap at the moment. I expect to be one of the top NTs come 2020 again depending on the development of guys like Bergwijn, Nouri, van de Beek and co. Then it will be really nice. My dream team of 2020 looks something like this:Tete - de Vrij - Kongolo - Aké
Strootman
van de Beek - Nouri
Adekanye - Janssen - Bergwijn
Keepers are a bit harder to project.
Kongolo could not break into Ajax & was forced to leave to a poor league. Ake can't start at 21. Van Beek is more of a DM.
Honestly it looks gloomy to me.
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Re: Is there any hope for Dutch football?
van de Beek is nothing like a DM, Kongolo has never played for Ajax and Aké won't be 21 in 4 years.
At some point I'll get to your other post but it is completely full of misinformation on so many levels.
At some point I'll get to your other post but it is completely full of misinformation on so many levels.
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Re: Is there any hope for Dutch football?
Curtinho wrote:van de Beek is nothing like a DM, Kongolo has never played for Ajax and Aké won't be 21 in 4 years.
At some point I'll get to your other post but it is completely full of misinformation on so many levels.
Terence Kongolo Feyenoord sorry. I got confused with Denswil at Ajax. He was another big prospect & he went to Club Brugge. Kongolo was a top prospect, has not grown that much in Feyenoord, I think Van Beek is gonna be better. Van Beek is the one providing steel n making those long diagonal passes while Kongolo is playing everywhere from LCB to LB.
Van De Beek is a 6. Nouri was the 10 & Jari Shuurman was the 8. Even Paal too I think played at 8 sometimes. Just because De Boer plays Schoene at LW or Singkgraven at 10 sometimes & even at the wing does not make them that their natural position.
Van Beek has little technical ability or handling speed for an 8. He was always a 6 in the U-17, U-19. I used to watch those matches not google up stuff!
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Re: Is there any hope for Dutch football?
You mean van de Beek, the 10 in this video?
...or the 10 in this video? Where he has almost always been one of the more advanced players on the pitch?
People often confuse dribbling and running with being technical. Maradonny is quite technical, his passing is great and he has a nose for the net. He reads the game really well and can play in a deeper position because of it with his off the ball work, but no, he's not a DM.
Kongolo has been progressing nicely and is much better than van Beek. van Beek really only has long passing, not to mention defenders tend to mature later than forwards so there's still lots of time for Kongolo to fulfill his potential.
...or the 10 in this video? Where he has almost always been one of the more advanced players on the pitch?
People often confuse dribbling and running with being technical. Maradonny is quite technical, his passing is great and he has a nose for the net. He reads the game really well and can play in a deeper position because of it with his off the ball work, but no, he's not a DM.
Kongolo has been progressing nicely and is much better than van Beek. van Beek really only has long passing, not to mention defenders tend to mature later than forwards so there's still lots of time for Kongolo to fulfill his potential.
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Re: Is there any hope for Dutch football?
Curtinho wrote:You mean van de Beek, the 10 in this video?
...or the 10 in this video? Where he has almost always been one of the more advanced players on the pitch?
People often confuse dribbling and running with being technical. Maradonny is quite technical, his passing is great and he has a nose for the net. He reads the game really well and can play in a deeper position because of it with his off the ball work, but no, he's not a DM.
Kongolo has been progressing nicely and is much better than van Beek. van Beek really only has long passing, not to mention defenders tend to mature later than forwards so there's still lots of time for Kongolo to fulfill his potential.
Van Beek was always the 6, Jai Schuurman was the Box 2 Box & Nouri was the 10.
In Ajax there is no 10, but when there was Klaassen played that spot although he was not a conventional 10. For Ajax Gudelj played the 6 & Bazoer/Van de Beek etc always played 8 & both pushed forward, Sometimes Klaassen or Sinkgraven.
Secondly a Youtube video can make anyone like good. I am sure Fernandinho can look like a skillful CAM as well. I have seen Van de beek play many games, he will ultimately turn to be a 6 IMO.
And I am happy for Kongolo but Beek is injured now & when they were both in their peak Beek was way better. Either ways I will be happy if any1 does well.
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Re: Is there any hope for Dutch football?
van de Beek hasn't been a 6 for years, I was just using that video to illustrate that not to show how good he is (and he is very good). He's an 8, and fits best as an 8 in a midfield 3 because he loves to get forward. Riedewald and Eiting will take up the 6 at Ajax when they're given more time (Riedewald has looked fantastic there when played). I know how they all set up and how they play. Really I actually prefer Aké as a 6 also but based on how he's been used I doubt he ends up there anymore.
Kongolo was always better than van Beek. Sven certainly has had his moments and games, but Kongolo is simply better. More athletic, better in the tackle, better on the ball and reads the game better. The long passes are nice but don't make up for everything else he lacks in.
As far as the post above goes comparing Bergwijn and Robben as well as writing off Adekanye...I mean, Adekanye was head and shoulders above players at his age at PSV when he was playing. Electric pace, dribbling and intuition on the ball. Bergwijn is quite technical, very fast, and has a nose for net as well. Nouri is great technically, can move the ball up the field quickly running, dribbling or passing and his shot is not bad either but he's very slight of frame and still needs to build his strength.
Again, it's a different landscape in the Eredivisie now and it's comparing apples to oranges with the opportunities Robben, Sneijder, VdV etc. were getting compared to the main three I've been talking about in van de Beek, Bergwijn and Nouri. For whatever reason Cocu, de Boer and now it seems Bosz have been extremely rigid and inflexible when it comes to young players. They're not really giving them a chance and instead buying other players (as though there's some kind of pressure for them to do so). Locadia playing the wing with PSV is a perfect example of this -- anyone watching Bergwijn play knows he's already miles better than Locadia but can't get minutes ahead of him? Nouri and van de Beek are better than guys like Gudelj, Bazoer and Younes (I know people have a hard on for Bazoer but I just don't see it, while Nouri can also play wide left). It's just a very weird time in the Eredvisie; lots of infighting in the developmental circles and a lack of push from the youth end. Again, Bergwijn, Nouri and van de Beek should have been starters last year, among others. Sinkgraven should never have left Heerenveen where he was developing really well (same with Ziyech really, but that's another story and infuriating time on the part of the Oranje...Ziyech absolutely should have played with the NT two years ago already but he got tired of waiting, now he's blocking Nouri at club level hahaha).
Sneijder 'way worse' than VdV...I'm not even touching that one. Meanwhile Vilhena has started to turn things around as well and is really coming back into his own after a few weird years where he was fighting with management and such. People act like if a big talent isn't a superstar by 21 years old they're a complete bust these days. No patience. It's why the biggest Dutch talents SHOULD be staying in the Eredivisie until they're like 23 or so to develop.
Kongolo was always better than van Beek. Sven certainly has had his moments and games, but Kongolo is simply better. More athletic, better in the tackle, better on the ball and reads the game better. The long passes are nice but don't make up for everything else he lacks in.
As far as the post above goes comparing Bergwijn and Robben as well as writing off Adekanye...I mean, Adekanye was head and shoulders above players at his age at PSV when he was playing. Electric pace, dribbling and intuition on the ball. Bergwijn is quite technical, very fast, and has a nose for net as well. Nouri is great technically, can move the ball up the field quickly running, dribbling or passing and his shot is not bad either but he's very slight of frame and still needs to build his strength.
Again, it's a different landscape in the Eredivisie now and it's comparing apples to oranges with the opportunities Robben, Sneijder, VdV etc. were getting compared to the main three I've been talking about in van de Beek, Bergwijn and Nouri. For whatever reason Cocu, de Boer and now it seems Bosz have been extremely rigid and inflexible when it comes to young players. They're not really giving them a chance and instead buying other players (as though there's some kind of pressure for them to do so). Locadia playing the wing with PSV is a perfect example of this -- anyone watching Bergwijn play knows he's already miles better than Locadia but can't get minutes ahead of him? Nouri and van de Beek are better than guys like Gudelj, Bazoer and Younes (I know people have a hard on for Bazoer but I just don't see it, while Nouri can also play wide left). It's just a very weird time in the Eredvisie; lots of infighting in the developmental circles and a lack of push from the youth end. Again, Bergwijn, Nouri and van de Beek should have been starters last year, among others. Sinkgraven should never have left Heerenveen where he was developing really well (same with Ziyech really, but that's another story and infuriating time on the part of the Oranje...Ziyech absolutely should have played with the NT two years ago already but he got tired of waiting, now he's blocking Nouri at club level hahaha).
Sneijder 'way worse' than VdV...I'm not even touching that one. Meanwhile Vilhena has started to turn things around as well and is really coming back into his own after a few weird years where he was fighting with management and such. People act like if a big talent isn't a superstar by 21 years old they're a complete bust these days. No patience. It's why the biggest Dutch talents SHOULD be staying in the Eredivisie until they're like 23 or so to develop.
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Re: Is there any hope for Dutch football?
Of course Sneijder was way worse than van der Vaart at a very young age ffs. Sneijeder was great but van der Vaart was seen as the second coming of Cruijff and for good reasons. Guy become a starter at 17 and scored 14 in 20 league games as an 18 year old just to even top that the next season after coming back from a horrific knee injury
It's easy to forget how good van der Vaart really was as a young player. Sneijder was just not on that level but in the end he became the better player.
Apart from that I completely disagree with the accusation that we don't give our youth a chance. Even de Boer - as much as I criticised him all the time - promoted youngsters all the time. The problem is just that many talents are not as good as people act they are. Now reading some of the stuff.. Nouri on the wing instead of Younes? JFC Younes was one of our 3 best players last season and we should ditch him to play a talent out of position over him? If Nouri is good enough he has to play in midfield. He can play together with Ziyech and Ziyech can play as a right winger so that shouldn't be too much of a problem.
Van de Beek looked average far too often and he still gets his chances anyway. Funny though to mention Bazoer at all for blocking the spot btw as Bazoer is a youth player himself thus the problem wouldn't be not giving the youth a chance but choosing the wrong youth players. And to be frank Bazoer at his best was a level above what van de Beek so far has shown and I don't rate Bazoer as that great super talent.
It's easy to forget how good van der Vaart really was as a young player. Sneijder was just not on that level but in the end he became the better player.
Apart from that I completely disagree with the accusation that we don't give our youth a chance. Even de Boer - as much as I criticised him all the time - promoted youngsters all the time. The problem is just that many talents are not as good as people act they are. Now reading some of the stuff.. Nouri on the wing instead of Younes? JFC Younes was one of our 3 best players last season and we should ditch him to play a talent out of position over him? If Nouri is good enough he has to play in midfield. He can play together with Ziyech and Ziyech can play as a right winger so that shouldn't be too much of a problem.
Van de Beek looked average far too often and he still gets his chances anyway. Funny though to mention Bazoer at all for blocking the spot btw as Bazoer is a youth player himself thus the problem wouldn't be not giving the youth a chance but choosing the wrong youth players. And to be frank Bazoer at his best was a level above what van de Beek so far has shown and I don't rate Bazoer as that great super talent.
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Re: Is there any hope for Dutch football?
Curtinho wrote:van de Beek hasn't been a 6 for years, I was just using that video to illustrate that not to show how good he is (and he is very good). He's an 8, and fits best as an 8 in a midfield 3 because he loves to get forward. Riedewald and Eiting will take up the 6 at Ajax when they're given more time (Riedewald has looked fantastic there when played). I know how they all set up and how they play. Really I actually prefer Aké as a 6 also but based on how he's been used I doubt he ends up there anymore.
Kongolo was always better than van Beek. Sven certainly has had his moments and games, but Kongolo is simply better. More athletic, better in the tackle, better on the ball and reads the game better. The long passes are nice but don't make up for everything else he lacks in.
As far as the post above goes comparing Bergwijn and Robben as well as writing off Adekanye...I mean, Adekanye was head and shoulders above players at his age at PSV when he was playing. Electric pace, dribbling and intuition on the ball. Bergwijn is quite technical, very fast, and has a nose for net as well. Nouri is great technically, can move the ball up the field quickly running, dribbling or passing and his shot is not bad either but he's very slight of frame and still needs to build his strength.
Again, it's a different landscape in the Eredivisie now and it's comparing apples to oranges with the opportunities Robben, Sneijder, VdV etc. were getting compared to the main three I've been talking about in van de Beek, Bergwijn and Nouri. For whatever reason Cocu, de Boer and now it seems Bosz have been extremely rigid and inflexible when it comes to young players. They're not really giving them a chance and instead buying other players (as though there's some kind of pressure for them to do so). Locadia playing the wing with PSV is a perfect example of this -- anyone watching Bergwijn play knows he's already miles better than Locadia but can't get minutes ahead of him? Nouri and van de Beek are better than guys like Gudelj, Bazoer and Younes (I know people have a hard on for Bazoer but I just don't see it, while Nouri can also play wide left). It's just a very weird time in the Eredvisie; lots of infighting in the developmental circles and a lack of push from the youth end. Again, Bergwijn, Nouri and van de Beek should have been starters last year, among others. Sinkgraven should never have left Heerenveen where he was developing really well (same with Ziyech really, but that's another story and infuriating time on the part of the Oranje...Ziyech absolutely should have played with the NT two years ago already but he got tired of waiting, now he's blocking Nouri at club level hahaha).
Sneijder 'way worse' than VdV...I'm not even touching that one. Meanwhile Vilhena has started to turn things around as well and is really coming back into his own after a few weird years where he was fighting with management and such. People act like if a big talent isn't a superstar by 21 years old they're a complete bust these days. No patience. It's why the biggest Dutch talents SHOULD be staying in the Eredivisie until they're like 23 or so to develop.
Eiting could be a good 6 but Donny Beek will struggle to break in as an 8. I don't think he is that good compared to people like Gundogan. He is just not that there vision wise n technically.
Secondly I did rate Kongolo highly when he was 17-18 odd but seeing him come through the ranks with the U-21 n Feyenoord for the last few years I don't see him a better option than Beek. Beek is the one doing the distribution in Feyenoord while Kongolo passes sideways, Beek is taller, moderately quick for a CB, decent turn, okay header. Kongolo has a slight. I hope Kongolo does well & better than Sven Beek. Let us see - He needs to stitch together 2 really good seasons for that.
Adekanye is completely overhyped. And I have seen this pattern with delusional Liverpool fans. The guy was a COMPLETE Flop with junior levels. What is his record for youth teams of the NT? I have seen him play & he did nothing. Oranje has a history with headless chickens who people thing will become great starts like Elia.
Also the idea than Kongolo was ALWAYS better than Sven Beek is absolutely ridiculous. Sven was getting calls into the NT & had a much better rating when both played together by almost everyone. I watched many U-21 games & Sven was better to an extent where Kongolo couldn't start at CB, he was benched player LB too. I remember Rekik also started at CB for a couple of games with Sven.
As for Bergwijn, I have high hopes, he is decent paced, can score n all but he can't break out for 2-3 seasons despite a thin PSV line-up. Also he has got a couple of matches n I didn't see anything special.
In Ajax every has got a chance, Donny Beek & now I think Frenkie De Jong is also getting a chance but not Nouri. I think Nouri played a couple of games n was not too good. I also saw some of Nouri's matches with the U-21 n sorry did not see much development in him. I used to like seeing Nouri play earlier not so much now.
Now it is 2 managers - De Boer n now Bosz. De Boer was a little conservative but now 2 managers are not very high on Nouri while playing a clearly more inferior talent in Donny Beek.
I am not saying these are not good talents, I have high hopes - I just think there is some serious exaggeration of young talents.
And VDV vs Sneijder is not even a debate - That is ludicrous. VDV was a Golden Boy winner, Sneijder? VDV broke into the NT at a much younger age. VDV was looked as the most talented player after Johan, this is not even a debate!
I agree with some of your points though - Dutch players should not leave before playing 3-4 years in the Eredivisie as a starter. I am not sure about the 23, I have seen some players regress.
Rekik is a good example. Anyways Fosu Mensah at United & Rodney Kongolo at City (Terence Kongolo's brother) are big examples. These 2 could have been the future of Oranje for a generation.
But it is not staying late only - Wijnaldum, De Vrij, BMI, Depay, Clasie etc stayed late till they were top players in the Eredivisie especially Wijnaldum or Clasie so it is not that simple - There are genuine issues with the coaching method n the league
footyfan01- Starlet
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Re: Is there any hope for Dutch football?
Nouri has yet to make his debut so no, there were no games in which he could've underwhelmed. Also de Jong doesn't get his chance at the moment. Both are in our 2nd team.
Nouri clearly has improved. He's been the best player of our second team this season. He will get his chance. He just never was a player to make a very early debut because of his physique. Playing in a fully professional league has helped him a lot already though and I think he'll soon be ready to play in the first team.
Nouri clearly has improved. He's been the best player of our second team this season. He will get his chance. He just never was a player to make a very early debut because of his physique. Playing in a fully professional league has helped him a lot already though and I think he'll soon be ready to play in the first team.
zigra- First Team
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Re: Is there any hope for Dutch football?
If not for the football, at least the fan are absolutely first class:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALdQQOXCS4s
ADO Den Haag Fans threw down cuddly toys to a group of patients from a local children’s hospital who sat in the lower bough of the stand beneath them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALdQQOXCS4s
ADO Den Haag Fans threw down cuddly toys to a group of patients from a local children’s hospital who sat in the lower bough of the stand beneath them.
Source: https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/sep/11/feyenoord-ado-den-haag-cuddly-toys-eredivisieAway supporters throwing objects at fans seated in the tier below them may not sound too good but ADO Den Haag fans at Feyenoord proved otherwise. The sides met in the Dutch league on Sunday and during the match Den Haag supporters threw hundreds of cuddly toys on to the Feyenoord supporters below them.
In the buildup to the match, visiting supporters were encouraged to bring soft toys to throw at the home fans and they did not disappoint. The Feyenoord fans on the receiving end were children from Rotterdam’s Sophia Children’s Hospital, the oldest children’s hospital in the Netherlands, who walked on to the pitch with the teams before the kick-off.
rwo power- Super Moderator
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Re: Is there any hope for Dutch football?
Funny that you say that because the dutch fans are actually anything but first class and these from Den Haag are usually among the worst. And I'm not talking about a lack of support.. it's really bad to be honest.
It's a nice gesture though. Don't want to take anything away from that, just don't take it as a a meaningful example of dutch football fans
It's a nice gesture though. Don't want to take anything away from that, just don't take it as a a meaningful example of dutch football fans
zigra- First Team
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Re: Is there any hope for Dutch football?
Well, even if they are normally ijits, for this time they were great. ^^
rwo power- Super Moderator
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Re: Is there any hope for Dutch football?
B-Mac wrote:not one mention of Memphis
ffs
It's because he's sh*t
RED- World Class Contributor
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Re: Is there any hope for Dutch football?
Curtinho maybe right on 1 account. Terence Kongolo had a really good game for Feyenoord against United. He seems to have got his mojo back.
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