Does anyone else feel massively let down by Kommander?

FennecFox7 wrote:
That Italy final he was easily their best player until the red card. And I'm not saying it was right, but the rules at the time would not have gotten him sent off. Also, if someone said that about my mom or sister, we have a problem. I think all of us would've gotten mad at that.

Jesus, the level of Fanboyism needed to justify your favorite player getting Red Card in a F***ing WORLD CUP Final because he couldn't handle the banter.

nasir6371 wrote:

FennecFox7 wrote:
That Italy final he was easily their best player until the red card. And I'm not saying it was right, but the rules at the time would not have gotten him sent off. Also, if someone said that about my mom or sister, we have a problem. I think all of us would've gotten mad at that.

Jesus, the level of Fanboyism needed to justify your favorite player getting Red Card in a F***ing WORLD CUP Final because he couldn't handle the banter.

One of the highest levels of mental gymnastics I've seen on this forum. You couldn't make it up.

oh boy, this thread has taken so many twists and turns. lol, everyone's just used it as an avenue to promote their best players, and used the variable of any team their player didn't score or perform against as some g.o.a.t- like team (even though we all know that's far from the truth), and anyone who they feel is a threat to their man-crush played against scrubs

i'll bring it back on topic. i don't feel let down by cristiano because i never expected some goat performance from him to begin with. didn't expect it because its been a while since he had big tournament performances with them. his performances at euro 04 and world cup 06 imo were better than these euros, and have been the best he's had

the euro title is great for him, as much as fans want to shift the goalpost to justify players' under-achievements, most footballers value winning something with their country more than they do their club. however, this pales in comparison with other performances by players of similar caliber in national competitions

if his team won, and he scored in the final, or had an all around great game, it would be different, regardless of how he played in earlier rounds. i value performances in the latter stages over beating scrub sides in the first round and disappearing late on. but the fact he didn't even play and didn't have the greatest performances, is similar to steph at the nba finals golden state won....cristiano's still a great player, and he has every right to be happy about portugal winning the euros. but we can't act like this was HIS tournament

FennecFox7 wrote:Lol. All the shit talking on zidane. All of a sudden, two goals in a wc final in 98 he dominated and an "overweight" Brazil team, what because Ronaldinho and Ronaldo had a few pounds?

That Italy final he was easily their best player until the red card. And I'm not saying it was right, but the rules at the time would not have gotten him sent off. Also, if someone said that about my mom or sister, we have a problem. I think all of us would've gotten mad at that.

I'm not gonna even go into your Criticism of zidane because it makes you look like a dunce. Iniesta and Xavi are easily just as good but seriously, you have no clue. Gonna wait for sports to tear you a new one

I have not criticized Zidane selectively. If you care to read, I have criticized Xavi and Iniesta too. And it is not criticism. I am just deconstructing their NT careers like Messi's.
And you need to rewatch the 2006 final. This is precisely what I mean by separate standards. Zidane was poor and cost his team the match by getting himself sent off. In no way was he the best player on the pitch.

Zidane in 2006 was what? 34? 35? Way past his prime. It doesn't matter whether he performed at "legendary" levels in 2006. It was still enough to send Puyol on his ass, pull a couple of flicks on Brazil and reach the final after already delivering 2 major titles for France.

You have suddenly completely changed your tune from before the Copa America ("Messi needs to prove himself"). Now performances against Panama and USA (neither is a top 30 team, Panama probably not even top 100) and dribbling against Chile without much end product convinced you. And that is weird as hell.

Did you watch the Copa America final? I can't tell if this is your usual contrarion trolling or if you legitimately consider that performance to be "a bunch of dribbles with no end product"

That was one of the best performances I've seen in an international final, and I'd even go further and say it was Messi's best performance since the first leg against Bayern in 14-15. He created every single one of Argentina's clear cut chances and repeatedly cut through the Chile defence (one of the most disciplined in the world today and probably the best of any NT) single handedly. You either didn't watch it or are trolling to come to the conclusion you did.

Messi's performance against Juve in the final was better than the one in the Copa and mind you I think he played very well in the Copa final.

It's just typical overhyping of every performance of Messi at NT level because apparently it fits the agenda.

-Chile one of the best defensive teams in history
-Underrating of past legends performances at NT level
-Overrating the current level of NT football
-Calling Messi's performance one of the best ever in a cup final because there is nothing left to hype since he lost the final obviously.


None of you fanboys would post trash like this if Messi correctly had taken his spot kick. Seriously stop this overhyping. It's getting embarassing.

Here is the full video of all his touches.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=le1TCG2OLNk

Show me what he created. One sidepass to Higuain around 7:00 and that indirect freekick around 9:00. Other than that: nothing. Please show me. I'm waiting. Where are those "clear cut chances"? Even Harmonica couldn't come up with any gifs in the Messi Appreciation Thread, which says it all.

I only really remember Messi playing Lavezzi in space for him to square a sort of difficult ball for Higuain who hit the side net which was 2015 final. Not sure what other "clear cut" chance Messi created in either final. I wouldn't mind a re-education on these chances.

Mind you, I too find Alex's change of tune rather odd. Like Batman siding with Sups after wanting to kill him all movie odd.

Side note, only thing that I was let down with w.r.t Ronaldo was his finishing. It was the worst I have seen from him. He did the other stuff pretty decent to good but the only thing I really wanted from (finishing) was very poor.

Messi created only 1 clear cut chance (for Aguero iirc) and he had a good free kick delivery or two as well but other than that i don't remember him creating anything worth notice. Argentina's best chance all game that Higuain blew came from a Chilean defenders error and had nothing to do with Messi.

With that being said his overall performance was good, shame he missed the penalty.

Also isn't the past few pages completely off topic? what are the mods doing.

nasir6371 wrote:

FennecFox7 wrote:
That Italy final he was easily their best player until the red card. And I'm not saying it was right, but the rules at the time would not have gotten him sent off. Also, if someone said that about my mom or sister, we have a problem. I think all of us would've gotten mad at that.

Jesus, the level of Fanboyism needed to justify your favorite player getting Red Card in a F***ing WORLD CUP Final because he couldn't handle the banter.

If that is banter for you in anyways you have a weird perception of it.

Messi had an excellent copa, don't get me wrong. I just think Ronaldo also had a very good euros. For the first time in his life, he defended, held up the ball, played centrally, and scored (even though his finishing was a bit poor, he got one assist and three goals, still impressive)

Come on, Ronaldo linking up play and passing the ball excellently? I swear, I was shocked myself. But it did happen. He's changed his game for the better. I'd love it if he could carry it to Madrid tbh, but time will tell.

Just because messi hasn't won anything doesn't make him a failure. Cruyff didn't win anything. So what? At the end of the day they both are easily two of the all time greats. Stop discrediting a player who gave it his all on the field. Messi was easily the best player against chile.

Trash talking always occurs on the pitch, though. Hell, the most heard phrase during a match in La Liga is hijo de puta

Nonetheless, the rules at the time stated if the ref didn't see it, it wasn't a red card. From Nasir's reaction you would've thought I said something else

@FennecFox7
Zidane thought so little of his teammates and Les Bleus that he couldn't wait until after the match? in the tunnel?

No one would have given two shits if he assaulted Materazzi in the tunnel after winning the WC.

S wrote:Messi's performance against Juve in the final was better than the one in the Copa and mind you I think he played very well in the Copa final.

It's just typical overhyping of every performance of Messi at NT level because apparently it fits the agenda.

-Chile one of the best defensive teams in history
-Underrating of past legends performances at NT level
-Overrating the current level of NT football
-Calling Messi's performance one of the best ever in a cup final because there is nothing left to hype since he lost the final obviously.


None of you fanboys would post trash like this if Messi correctly had taken his spot kick. Seriously stop this overhyping. It's getting embarassing.

What does this have anything to do with a penalty?

It seems everything anyone writes on this forum goes through a special Surag only filter before you read it. It's always fanboy this hater that without actually pausing to understand what is being said.

I said Messi's performance against Chile was one of the best I've seen in a NT final, and that it was his best performance since Bayern 14-15. Considering the game you pointed out as better was a few weeks later in the same season you clearly don't disagree too much. We both agree it was better than any of his performances in 15-16.

As for NT performances, I don't think it's an outrageous claim at all. Give me 3 NT final performances post 2002 that were better.

But for some reason any praise of Messi for you is "overhyping" and "fanboying", even if from the rest of the post you don't seem to actually disagree too much.

Cruijf wrote:

But for some reason any praise of Messi for you is "overhyping" and "fanboying", even if from the rest of the post you don't seem to actually disagree too much.

You said the same thing about me, and I don't believe I've ever called you a fanboy There's no shame in being insecure

Cruijf wrote:

S wrote:Messi's performance against Juve in the final was better than the one in the Copa and mind you I think he played very well in the Copa final.

It's just typical overhyping of every performance of Messi at NT level because apparently it fits the agenda.

-Chile one of the best defensive teams in history
-Underrating of past legends performances at NT level
-Overrating the current level of NT football
-Calling Messi's performance one of the best ever in a cup final because there is nothing left to hype since he lost the final obviously.


None of you fanboys would post trash like this if Messi correctly had taken his spot kick. Seriously stop this overhyping. It's getting embarassing.

What does this have anything to do with a penalty?

It seems everything anyone writes on this forum goes through a special Surag only filter before you read it. It's always fanboy this hater that without actually pausing to understand what is being said.

I said Messi's performance against Chile was one of the best I've seen in a NT final, and that it was his best performance since Bayern 14-15. Considering the game you pointed out as better was a few weeks later in the same season you clearly don't disagree too much. We both agree it was better than any of his performances in 15-16.

As for NT performances, I don't think it's an outrageous claim at all. Give me 3 NT final performances post 2002 that were better.

But for some reason any praise of Messi for you is "overhyping" and "fanboying", even if from the rest of the post you don't seem to actually disagree too much.

Xavi in 08, 12, Iniesta 10, Casillas in 10

Thimmy wrote:
You'd defend him to the end of time, wouldn't you  

Pretty much calling me a fanboy

For the people asking about what Messi created in the final however, Argentina essentially had 4 clear cut chances:

Higuain 1v1 (Higuain created/defender mistake)
Otamendi header (Messi freekick)
Aguero shot (Messi pass after Messi dribble)
Aguero header (Messi freekick)

So other than Higuain's chance, Messi created every single clear cut chance. On top of that he got Diaz sent off and had a number of great dribbles that were cut short by fouls. I really don't see how you go from that to "YOLO dribbles with no end product"

Valkyrja wrote:

Cruijf wrote:

S wrote:Messi's performance against Juve in the final was better than the one in the Copa and mind you I think he played very well in the Copa final.

It's just typical overhyping of every performance of Messi at NT level because apparently it fits the agenda.

-Chile one of the best defensive teams in history
-Underrating of past legends performances at NT level
-Overrating the current level of NT football
-Calling Messi's performance one of the best ever in a cup final because there is nothing left to hype since he lost the final obviously.


None of you fanboys would post trash like this if Messi correctly had taken his spot kick. Seriously stop this overhyping. It's getting embarassing.

What does this have anything to do with a penalty?

It seems everything anyone writes on this forum goes through a special Surag only filter before you read it. It's always fanboy this hater that without actually pausing to understand what is being said.

I said Messi's performance against Chile was one of the best I've seen in a NT final, and that it was his best performance since Bayern 14-15. Considering the game you pointed out as better was a few weeks later in the same season you clearly don't disagree too much. We both agree it was better than any of his performances in 15-16.

As for NT performances, I don't think it's an outrageous claim at all. Give me 3 NT final performances post 2002 that were better.

But for some reason any praise of Messi for you is "overhyping" and "fanboying", even if from the rest of the post you don't seem to actually disagree too much.

Xavi in 08, 12,  Iniesta 10,  Casillas in 10

I can give you Xavi and Iniesta but Casillas

His save against Robben which everyone holds up as legendary was 100% down to Puyol rugby tackling him and other than that he had nothing to do

This is just ridiculous, best performance in a NT final since 2002

Pirlo in 06, Xavi in 08, Xavi in 12, Iniesta in 10, Forlan in 2011 CA, Pepe and Patricio in 16 were all better than Messi.

Can we talk about our almighty Kommander please

Cruijf wrote:

S wrote:Messi's performance against Juve in the final was better than the one in the Copa and mind you I think he played very well in the Copa final.

It's just typical overhyping of every performance of Messi at NT level because apparently it fits the agenda.

-Chile one of the best defensive teams in history
-Underrating of past legends performances at NT level
-Overrating the current level of NT football
-Calling Messi's performance one of the best ever in a cup final because there is nothing left to hype since he lost the final obviously.


None of you fanboys would post trash like this if Messi correctly had taken his spot kick. Seriously stop this overhyping. It's getting embarassing.

What does this have anything to do with a penalty?

It seems everything anyone writes on this forum goes through a special Surag only filter before you read it. It's always fanboy this hater that without actually pausing to understand what is being said.

I said Messi's performance against Chile was one of the best I've seen in a NT final, and that it was his best performance since Bayern 14-15. Considering the game you pointed out as better was a few weeks later in the same season you clearly don't disagree too much. We both agree it was better than any of his performances in 15-16.

As for NT performances, I don't think it's an outrageous claim at all. Give me 3 NT final performances post 2002 that were better.

But for some reason any praise of Messi for you is "overhyping" and "fanboying", even if from the rest of the post you don't seem to actually disagree too much.

You are prepared to make exceptions for Messi but proceed to call Bale and Cristiano 'awful' despite both having decisive performances in the EURO. You are not being rational and hence i will call you out for fanboying Messi. And there are multiple NT performances in a final from various players since 2002 and some of them has already been mentioned above in M99's post.


I think most people agree that Messi had an excellent tournament in the Copa and a good performance in the final. My problem here  is when  posters are discrediting everything about the past and overhyping everything about this Copa America and the final just to make Messi look like he's the greatest NT player ever.

What exceptions have I made for Messi? The difference between Messi's Copa and Ronaldo/Bale's Euro is very simple - Messi was good

It's actually a ridiculous comparision. Bale who did absolutely nothing other than the two free kicks and who wasn't even the best player on his team is being compared to Messi's Copa?

As for "discrediting the past", the claim that Messi's performance was the best in a NT final since 2002 is actually not very impressive. NT finals are usually very tight and it's rare to see one player dominated them. Like I said I'll give you Xavi and Iniesta but Pepe, Rui Patricio, and Pirlo? At this point you're just picking out random players from teams won. It's like the claim about Casillas who had a grand total of one save to make

Regardless we can agree to disagree about just how good the performance was these are all subjective. My issue is calling it "a bunch of YOLO dribbles with no end product." That's complete nonsense and what I originally disagreed with.

Cruijf wrote:

Valkyrja wrote:

Cruijf wrote:


What does this have anything to do with a penalty?

It seems everything anyone writes on this forum goes through a special Surag only filter before you read it. It's always fanboy this hater that without actually pausing to understand what is being said.

I said Messi's performance against Chile was one of the best I've seen in a NT final, and that it was his best performance since Bayern 14-15. Considering the game you pointed out as better was a few weeks later in the same season you clearly don't disagree too much. We both agree it was better than any of his performances in 15-16.

As for NT performances, I don't think it's an outrageous claim at all. Give me 3 NT final performances post 2002 that were better.

But for some reason any praise of Messi for you is "overhyping" and "fanboying", even if from the rest of the post you don't seem to actually disagree too much.

Xavi in 08, 12,  Iniesta 10,  Casillas in 10

I can give you Xavi and Iniesta but Casillas

His save against Robben which everyone holds up as legendary was 100% down to Puyol rugby tackling him and other than that he had nothing to do

Casillas' made two game winning saves in the 2010 final. That trumps everything Messi did in his NT career tbh

Cruijf wrote:What exceptions have I made for Messi? The difference between Messi's Copa and Ronaldo/Bale's Euro is very simple - Messi was good

It's actually a ridiculous comparision. Bale who did absolutely nothing other than the two free kicks and who wasn't even the best player on his team is being compared to Messi's Copa?

As for "discrediting the past", the claim that Messi's performance was the best in a NT final since 2002 is actually not very impressive. NT finals are usually very tight and it's rare to see one player dominated them. Like I said I'll give you Xavi and Iniesta but Pepe, Rui Patricio, and Pirlo? At this point you're just picking out random players from teams won. It's like the claim about Casillas who had a grand total of one save to make

Regardless we can agree to disagree about just how good the performance was these are all subjective. My issue is calling it "a bunch of YOLO dribbles with no end product." That's complete nonsense and what I originally disagreed with.

Your original statement about Messi creating every single clear cut chance was false as he was not involved in their biggest chance all game that Higuain blew.

Futbol saying Messi was "dribbling against Chile without much end product" isn't that much of a stretch since out of the 3 chances he created that you listed, only 1 came from open play.

Also emphasis on the fact that he said "without much end product" and not "no end product" as you're trying falsely quote/claim.

Then we have you praising Messi for creating 2 chances from free kick delivery while downplaying Bale scoring two goals from free kicks. You also highlighted Messi's dribbling against Chile while claiming Bale did "absolutely nothing" besides scoring two free kicks despite Bale being the player with 2nd most dribbles at the Euro's with 23 successful take-ons

Cruijf wrote:

Thimmy wrote:
You'd defend him to the end of time, wouldn't you  

Pretty much calling me a fanboy

For the people asking about what Messi created in the final however, Argentina essentially had 4 clear cut chances:

Higuain 1v1 (Higuain created/defender mistake)
Otamendi header (Messi freekick)
Aguero shot (Messi pass after Messi dribble)
Aguero header (Messi freekick)

So other than Higuain's chance, Messi created every single clear cut chance. On top of that he got Diaz sent off and had a number of great dribbles that were cut short by fouls. I really don't see how you go from that to "YOLO dribbles with no end product"

I said that because coincidentally, every time I've been seeing your name in any thread, you've been defending Messi's honor. Speaking of fanboys. Looks like there's someone who likes to give your posts a thumbs up