Does anyone else feel massively let down by Kommander?

Cruijf wrote:

Thimmy wrote:
You'd defend him to the end of time, wouldn't you  

Pretty much calling me a fanboy

For the people asking about what Messi created in the final however, Argentina essentially had 4 clear cut chances:

Higuain 1v1 (Higuain created/defender mistake)
Otamendi header (Messi freekick)
Aguero shot (Messi pass after Messi dribble)
Aguero header (Messi freekick)

So other than Higuain's chance, Messi created every single clear cut chance. On top of that he got Diaz sent off and had a number of great dribbles that were cut short by fouls. I really don't see how you go from that to "YOLO dribbles with no end product"

I said that because coincidentally, every time I've been seeing your name in any thread, you've been defending Messi's honor. Speaking of fanboys. Looks like there's someone who likes to give your posts a thumbs up

How have I changed my tune?
this is what I mentioned in the Copa thread on the Barca section.
'He doesnt need to win. But he does need a dominant performance in the knockouts. So far, he has underwhelmed in all his knockout performances for Argentina. He has had a decent number of chances too. He needs to dominate atleast 2 knockout games out of the 3(performances like today).
Otherwise the old doubts will resurface again and his GOAT standing will once more be questioned with an increasing level of justification.'

I clearly mentioned before the knockouts that he needed to dominate atleast 2 out of the 3 games.
And Messi delivered. He dominated all 3 games. Including scoring a sublime FK goal in the SF( which gets him extra points as that is something other GOATS havent managed).
So where exactly have I changed my tune doc and futbol? He delivered in 3 games and his standing has gone up imo. I see no contradiction whatsoever.

And the chances argument has already been put to bed. I have already mentioned the GOATS who failed to create jack in NT tournament finals.

Just read some of the posts, Im all for recognizing Messi's great tournament, but its not quite the unique feat. Many other great performances in knockouts are as good and better than this by past greats. He scored 2 goals against Venezuela and USA. His play was outstanding all round, but its been done.

rincon wrote:Just read some of the posts, Im all for recognizing Messi's great tournament, but its not quite the unique feat. Many other great performances in knockouts are as good and better than this by past greats. He scored 2 goals against Venezuela and USA. His play was outstanding all round, but its been done.

This is why actually winning the damn tourney carries so much weight. if you're not first place, you finish last.

Zees wrote:

Cruijf wrote:What exceptions have I made for Messi? The difference between Messi's Copa and Ronaldo/Bale's Euro is very simple - Messi was good

It's actually a ridiculous comparision. Bale who did absolutely nothing other than the two free kicks and who wasn't even the best player on his team is being compared to Messi's Copa?

As for "discrediting the past", the claim that Messi's performance was the best in a NT final since 2002 is actually not very impressive. NT finals are usually very tight and it's rare to see one player dominated them. Like I said I'll give you Xavi and Iniesta but Pepe, Rui Patricio, and Pirlo? At this point you're just picking out random players from teams won. It's like the claim about Casillas who had a grand total of one save to make

Regardless we can agree to disagree about just how good the performance was these are all subjective. My issue is calling it "a bunch of YOLO dribbles with no end product." That's complete nonsense and what I originally disagreed with.

Your original statement about Messi creating every single clear cut chance was false as he was not involved in their biggest chance all game that Higuain blew.

Futbol saying Messi was "dribbling against Chile without much end product" isn't that much of a stretch since out of the 3 chances he created that you listed, only 1 came from open play.

Also emphasis on the fact that he said "without much end product" and not "no end product" as you're trying falsely quote/claim.

Then we have you praising Messi for creating 2 chances from free kick delivery while downplaying Bale scoring two goals from free kicks. You also highlighted Messi's dribbling against Chile while claiming Bale did "absolutely nothing" besides scoring two free kicks despite Bale being the player with 2nd most dribbles at the Euro's with 23 successful take-ons

NT finals are tight contests as I've said before and as I'm pretty certain we can all agree on. Many people would say Xavi or Inesta had great performances in the WC 2010 final or the Euro 2008 final (and I'd agree) but if you look at it strictly in terms of "end product" there were only a handful of chances for either team in those matches and less still that Xavi or Iniesta were directly responsible for.

You can bring up semantics about Futbol saying "without much" instead of "without any" but at the end of the day everyone here knows exactly what message he is sending - that Messi failed to deliver the required amount of end product.

If you compare his performance to other individual performances in similar finals you find that to be false. If I have time later I can dig up exactly how many chances Xavi for example created in the '10 final but from memory I can tell you it wasn't many, comparable to the amount Messi created in the Copa final.

So really I can just reiterate Alex when he says there are double standards here. The definition of a good performance for Xavi or Iniesta or Zidane seems to be less than for Messi

And this comparison with Bale and set pieces is ridiculous. There is a big difference between two set pieces in an entire tournament and two set pieces in one game. There is also a difference between two set pieces with poor all round play and two set pieces with great round play.

To be honest though I'm still slightly surprised this is being discussed. We all agreed as it was happening that Messi was playing well in the Copa and played well in the final. When did everyone magically decide to reduce his performance to "YOLO dribbles without much* end product"?

*Just for Zees

at the end of the day, winning in the final carries a lot of weight. especially when your team wins, and YOU give a valiant performance. a valiant performance doesn't have to mean you should have 9 shots that hit the bar or 11 shots the goalie saved, its not a video game. it can simply be seeing that a player exudes the confidence he shows in other games, maybe scores, assists or something....but doing that in a win is key.

and even in the loss, i won't say messi shat himself, but come on, what we were watching out there in the copa marketing final wasn't some mind blowing stuff that we should be giving props for. its just the cruel nature of finals, has always been that way, as long as the main player doesn't completely shit himself, if he's reasonably good in a tightly contested win he'll get props from some. in a loss, unless he was sooooo good, the loss just happened to be one of those tragedies, nobody but fans who like said player would care

btw for all the talk of chile being some goat side, how come nobody has brought up that argentina beat them in the first group game (not third group game when everyone has qualified and the games isn't as serious) without messi, and with chile playing almost the same squad in the final

titosantill wrote:at the end of the day, winning in the final carries a lot of weight. especially when your team wins, and YOU give a valiant performance. a valiant performance doesn't have to mean you should have 9 shots that hit the bar or 11 shots the goalie saved, its not a video game. it can simply be seeing that a player exudes the confidence he shows in other games, maybe scores, assists or something....but doing that in a win is key.

and even in the loss, i won't say messi shat himself, but come on, what we were watching out there in the copa marketing final wasn't some mind blowing stuff that we should be giving props for. its just the cruel nature of finals, has always been that way, as long as the main player doesn't completely shit himself, if he's reasonably good in a tightly contested win he'll get props from some. in a loss, unless he was sooooo good, the loss just happened to be one of those tragedies, nobody but fans who like said player would care

btw for all the talk of chile being some goat side, how come nobody has brought up that argentina beat them in the first group game (not third group game when everyone has qualified and the games isn't as serious) without messi, and with chile playing almost the same squad in the final

based on the mark-up sentence, paolo rossi is one of the greatest player in the world cup

paolo rossi wc performance >>> cryuff + puskas + eusebio etc................

& also........mario kempes wc performance >>> cryuff + puskas + eusebio etc................

the funny thing, although both won the wc with A+ performance yet people rarely include them in the list of the greatest player in all time

its simple...the issue brought up was 'goat player vs goat player'. giroud could have scored 5 against portugal. we're not gonna all of a sudden start comparing him to messi or even cristiano (who in such a situation would have been on the losing end). if you hail some player in terms of greatness, then winning goes a long way, i don't think many prior to those world cups were talking up how great kempes was. and when rossi played, all the hype we were talking about was brazil, especially zico and to a lesser extent socrates.

Cruijf wrote:

Zees wrote:

Cruijf wrote:What exceptions have I made for Messi? The difference between Messi's Copa and Ronaldo/Bale's Euro is very simple - Messi was good

It's actually a ridiculous comparision. Bale who did absolutely nothing other than the two free kicks and who wasn't even the best player on his team is being compared to Messi's Copa?

As for "discrediting the past", the claim that Messi's performance was the best in a NT final since 2002 is actually not very impressive. NT finals are usually very tight and it's rare to see one player dominated them. Like I said I'll give you Xavi and Iniesta but Pepe, Rui Patricio, and Pirlo? At this point you're just picking out random players from teams won. It's like the claim about Casillas who had a grand total of one save to make

Regardless we can agree to disagree about just how good the performance was these are all subjective. My issue is calling it "a bunch of YOLO dribbles with no end product." That's complete nonsense and what I originally disagreed with.

Your original statement about Messi creating every single clear cut chance was false as he was not involved in their biggest chance all game that Higuain blew.

Futbol saying Messi was "dribbling against Chile without much end product" isn't that much of a stretch since out of the 3 chances he created that you listed, only 1 came from open play.

Also emphasis on the fact that he said "without much end product" and not "no end product" as you're trying falsely quote/claim.

Then we have you praising Messi for creating 2 chances from free kick delivery while downplaying Bale scoring two goals from free kicks. You also highlighted Messi's dribbling against Chile while claiming Bale did "absolutely nothing" besides scoring two free kicks despite Bale being the player with 2nd most dribbles at the Euro's with 23 successful take-ons

NT finals are tight contests as I've said before and as I'm pretty certain we can all agree on. Many people would say Xavi or Inesta had great performances in the WC 2010 final or the Euro 2008 final (and I'd agree) but if you look at it strictly in terms of "end product" there were only a handful of chances for either team in those matches and less still that Xavi or Iniesta were directly responsible for.

You can bring up semantics about Futbol saying "without much" instead of "without any" but at the end of the day everyone here knows exactly what message he is sending - that Messi failed to deliver the required amount of end product.

If you compare his performance to other individual performances in similar finals you find that to be false. If I have time later I can dig up exactly how many chances Xavi for example created in the '10 final but from memory I can tell you it wasn't many, comparable to the amount Messi created in the Copa final.

So really I can just reiterate Alex when he says there are double standards here. The definition of a good performance for Xavi or Iniesta or Zidane seems to be less than for Messi

And this comparison with Bale and set pieces is ridiculous. There is a big difference between two set pieces in an entire tournament and two set pieces in one game. There is also a difference between two set pieces with poor all round play and two set pieces with great round play.

To be honest though I'm still slightly surprised this is being discussed. We all agreed as it was happening that Messi was playing well in the Copa and played well in the final. When did everyone magically decide to reduce his performance to "YOLO dribbles without much* end product"?

*Just for Zees

Honestly i'm a bit lost here, you proclaim your post was just for me yet you end up talking about stuff i never mentioned for the majority of your post?

I never said Messi's performance was bad, nor did i compare it to any other player as i have no interest in discussing that matter. If i did i would've posted about it already and on the contrary, i've praised Messi's performance in my previous post.

From my perspective "without much end product" and "no end product" does have a significant difference, one implies he created a few while the other implies he created none.

And i don't think there's anything wrong with calling you out for fabricating something? you aren't supposed to use quote marks unless you're actually quoting someone as it's very easy to twist and take things out of context.

For example:
*futbol said Messi dribbled into Chile's defence with NO end product but Messi created all of Argentina's chances*

When in reality futbol never said he had no end product, in fact he actually listed 2 out of the 3 chances you brought up in his initial post.

Cruijf wrote:
For the people asking about what Messi created in the final however, Argentina essentially had 4 clear cut chances:

Higuain 1v1 (Higuain created/defender mistake)
Otamendi header (Messi freekick)
Aguero shot (Messi pass after Messi dribble)
Aguero header (Messi freekick)

futbol wrote:Then what did he create? He created about 2 chances in 120 minutes which is poor for a supposed GOAT playmaker: 1 from an indirect freekick and one where he passed the ball sideways to Higuain.

note: bolded he got Higuain and Aguero mixed up


So not only did he not say "with no end product", he also mentioned the chances Messi created except for one which was from a set piece delivery.

Why does it matter if it was one match vs the entire tournament? he still had one of the highest dribbles per game ratio and it doesn't change the fact that you tried to undermine the importance of set pieces and dribbling for Bale while praising Messi's set pieces and dribbling in the same post.

Zees, What was your previous username ?

And who is the 'other' guest7 by the way ?

Two lines I hear from butt hurt fans about Ronaldo and bale everytime they do well in a game

"They did nothing besides score".
Even if both these players showed good passing ability and dribbling, they're always labeled headless chickens with no technique on here. Unbelievable. Ronaldo had a great euros and his finishing was probably his worst attribute this tournament. Bale was busting ass and defending as well as he attacked.

Can we stop talking about messi please? No. It doesn't matter if you win or not, stop with these imaginary guidelines. Would zidane have been any less legendary skill wise if he played for Algeria, where he wouldn't have won shit, I don't think so. Messi is only under cruyff as the GOAT.
Messi will never be better the cruyff because of one reason; he doesn't move. He is lazy and his team suffers because of his Movement, he has absolutely horrendous pressing and off the ball movement. seriously, Messi made Ronaldo look like prime Maldini this season and boy that's saying something.

Now can we talk about Ronaldo, aka Kommander, aka captain, coach and hero at the same time

guest_07 wrote:

titosantill wrote:at the end of the day, winning in the final carries a lot of weight. especially when your team wins, and YOU give a valiant performance. a valiant performance doesn't have to mean you should have 9 shots that hit the bar or 11 shots the goalie saved, its not a video game. it can simply be seeing that a player exudes the confidence he shows in other games, maybe scores, assists or something....but doing that in a win is key.

and even in the loss, i won't say messi shat himself, but come on, what we were watching out there in the copa marketing final wasn't some mind blowing stuff that we should be giving props for. its just the cruel nature of finals, has always been that way, as long as the main player doesn't completely shit himself, if he's reasonably good in a tightly contested win he'll get props from some. in a loss, unless he was sooooo good, the loss just happened to be one of those tragedies, nobody but fans who like said player would care

btw for all the talk of chile being some goat side, how come nobody has brought up that argentina beat them in the first group game (not third group game when everyone has qualified and the games isn't as serious) without messi, and with chile playing almost the same squad in the final

based on the mark-up sentence, paolo rossi is one of the greatest player in the world cup

paolo rossi wc performance >>> cryuff + puskas + eusebio etc................

& also........mario kempes wc performance >>> cryuff + puskas + eusebio etc................

the funny thing, although both won the wc with A+ performance yet people rarely include them in the list of the greatest player in all time

I thought everyone was talking about the level of the performances, not the level of the player itself. Paolo Rossi's WC performance in 82 is certainly head and shoulders above Messi's in any NT tournament. Alex was saying how this Messi performance was the best ever with 3 good knockout games (not Messi's level in itself). Scoring 6 against Brazil, Poland and Germany (final) definitely wins.

futbol wrote:Here is the full video of all his touches.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=le1TCG2OLNk

Show me what he created. One sidepass to Higuain around 7:00 and that indirect freekick around 9:00. Other than that: nothing. Please show me. I'm waiting. Where are those "clear cut chances"? Even Harmonica couldn't come up with any gifs in the Messi Appreciation Thread, which says it all.

His dribbling did these things
1:25 his dribbling builds the attack and opens space
1:40 his dribbling caused first yellow for Marcelo Diaz (if not foul 3 argentina players would be face to face with goalkeeper and messi would be labelled as Goat)
2:38 his dribbling won him a free kick which resulted with dangerous header
3:26 his dribbling sent Marcelo Diaz off
5:15 his dribbling won another free kick
5:51 his dribbling won him a corner out of nothing starting from half line. nobody supporting messi, he is alone in attack against 6 Chile players. Most probably your idol cant do such things without support
6:17 his dribbling won another free kick
6:48 his dribbling opens a huge space out of nothing, almost destroys 5 players, if aguero had brain he would put Otamendi face to face with goalkeeper and messi would get all the credit
7:06 his dribbling creates a chance for Aguero
7:24 his dribbling creates a chance for himself
8:20 his dribbling wins a free kick which resulted with the save of the tournament
If you think his dribbling did nothing then you clearly a hater or triggered by some well known agendas.

This was the match which there was no space and no chances. messi won all the free kicks and created all the half chances. If not his dribbling argentina would not get past half line. Chile was very aggressive and defended like prime Atletico. Any lucky goal would make messi a legend with this performance, and you probably would disappear for next 3 months until messi drops his form

"His dribbling won the corner".

Pls go and do some stuff that you actually understand, like selling Kebabs or something.

alexjanosik wrote:How have I changed my tune?
this is what I mentioned in the Copa thread on the Barca section.
'He doesnt need to win. But he does need a dominant performance in the knockouts. So far, he has underwhelmed in all his knockout performances for Argentina. He has had a decent number of chances too. He needs to dominate atleast 2 knockout games out of the 3(performances like today).
Otherwise the old doubts will resurface again and his GOAT standing will once more be questioned with an increasing level of justification.'

I clearly mentioned before the knockouts that he needed to dominate atleast 2 out of the 3 games.
And Messi delivered. He dominated all 3 games. Including scoring a sublime FK goal in the SF( which gets him extra points as that is something other GOATS havent managed).
So where exactly have I changed my tune doc and futbol? He delivered in 3 games and his standing has gone up imo. I see no contradiction whatsoever.

And the chances argument has already been put to bed. I have already mentioned the GOATS who failed to create jack in NT tournament finals.

You still don't see how you changed your tune? You went from "so far, he has underwhelmed" and constant criticism to sudden over the top praise like "legendary" and praising his NT career and talking down Maradona or Zidane, all of a sudden, because Messi had very good knockout performances against Venezuela and USA in blowout games where Argentina scored 8 goals. You've also talked down Ronaldo's World Cup in 2002 in the R9 vs. Suarez thread because it was a "poverty tournament" where Turkey and South Korea made the semis but all of a sudden the quality of the opponent doesn't seem to matter to you in this instance.

futbol wrote:"His dribbling won the corner".

Pls go and do some stuff that you actually understand, like selling Kebabs or something.

Read until the end troll. i said his dribbling won corner out of nothing.if there was another player it would end with back pass in half line. i made a long list you just detected one of them which looks like a troll material.learn to detect other things too

I'm all with Kebab on this one. And I will tell my kids that Messi's NT achievements would've been legendary, if it wasn't for the absence of a lucky goal, in a copa final where he not only caused the legendary, Marcelo Diaz all kinds of problems, but also dribbled and created free kicks that resulted in a dangerous header among other things. It was a clash of titans, one that the history books failed to remember, only due to the nature of error in human beings. It was a day when seas suddenly parted through the middle, dark clouds evaporated and disappeared, but didn't cause rain, and animals around the world flocked to high ground.

It was truly a tale of legends. Unfortunately, coincidences and bias from all angles prevented it from having an happy ending. Messi, the saviour of humans and animals alike, did not win the final, despite having a god-like talent combined with blood, sweat and tears. I'll make sure to inform my sons or daughters that Chile defended like prime Atletico; a challenge that wouldn't normally faze Messi, but higher powers clearly influenced the course of the game. Messi, devastated by a loss in the final, in addition to the loss of 8 limbs, 5 family members, and two of his three brains, later announced that he would retire from his national team - or "dem people back home" as he himself liked to call it. It was later found out that his team mate, Judas Higuaín was the cause of their loss; the conspirator who had accepted a deal to sabotage his national team, in exchange for marriage with a foreign princess. Higuaín begged for forgiveness, but it was too late. There was no way Messi would change his mind about the retirement, after all the terrible events and trauma he had gone through. This is the part where my children would interrupt me and say "but fotball players have limbs and internal organs made out of indestructible metal. They don't feel pain, and they don't get tired. This Messi guy doesn't sound impressive at all". I would tell them to stop being fanboys. End of story.

Timmy i didnt read all of your story but i got what you are trying to do. Tell me what was difference between messi vs m.city in 2015 and messi vs Chile in 2016? Why that match considered legendary but this match not?  maybe it lacked one goal right? because everything else was the same.he toyed with M.city with his dribbling. So yes one goal makes a huge difference. One goal from aguero or higuain and messi would be a legend.This is how it works

Cruijf wrote:

NT finals are tight contests as I've said before and as I'm pretty certain we can all agree on. Many people would say Xavi or Inesta had great performances in the WC 2010 final or the Euro 2008 final (and I'd agree) but if you look at it strictly in terms of "end product" there were only a handful of chances for either team in those matches and less still that Xavi or Iniesta were directly responsible for.

You can bring up semantics about Futbol saying "without much" instead of "without any" but at the end of the day everyone here knows exactly what message he is sending - that Messi failed to deliver the required amount of end product.

If you compare his performance to other individual performances in similar finals you find that to be false. If I have time later I can dig up exactly how many chances Xavi for example created in the '10 final but from memory I can tell you it wasn't many, comparable to the amount Messi created in the Copa final.

So really I can just reiterate Alex when he says there are double standards here. The definition of a good performance for Xavi or Iniesta or Zidane seems to be less than for Messi

And this comparison with Bale and set pieces is ridiculous. There is a big difference between two set pieces in an entire tournament and two set pieces in one game. There is also a difference between two set pieces with poor all round play and two set pieces with great round play.

To be honest though I'm still slightly surprised this is being discussed. We all agreed as it was happening that Messi was playing well in the Copa and played well in the final. When did everyone magically decide to reduce his performance to "YOLO dribbles without much* end product"?

*Just for Zees

Is this a joke? Xavi alone directly assisted 3 goals in the 2 Euro finals with 3 superb throughballs and that's without even counting the countless chances which weren't converted. Euro 2008 specifically, Germany should have conceded like 5 goals. Luckily prime David Villa was injured. On the other hand we have "Messi winning corners with his dribbling". Legendary.

6 hours of finals and not 1 great throughball to his teammates. I thought Messi was the GOAT playmaker and passer, better than Xavi even etc. etc. How does he fail to play 1 decent throughball in 6 hours when it matters most?

futbol wrote:

Is this a joke? Xavi alone directly assisted 3 goals in the 2 Euro finals with 3 superb throughballs and that's without even counting the countless chances which weren't converted.

Chances not converted, do not count. Just ask Whoscored.com. It does count in South America, however. Different culture. Respect it.

Eh futbol now i understand why Harmonica (which defends messi in every chance) doesnt reply to you anymore. because there is no use. You are just programmed for trolling

Thimmy wrote:

futbol wrote:

Is this a joke? Xavi alone directly assisted 3 goals in the 2 Euro finals with 3 superb throughballs and that's without even counting the countless chances which weren't converted.

Chances not converted, do not count. Just ask Whoscored.com. It does count in South America, however. Different culture. Respect it.

Talking about Whoscored, this Copa Marketing was so irrelevant, Whoscored didn't even track any stats about it. No wonder Harmonica couldn't bombard us with "wide dribbling ghost assist importance" stats.

futbol wrote:

Thimmy wrote:

futbol wrote:

Is this a joke? Xavi alone directly assisted 3 goals in the 2 Euro finals with 3 superb throughballs and that's without even counting the countless chances which weren't converted.

Chances not converted, do not count. Just ask Whoscored.com. It does count in South America, however. Different culture. Respect it.

Talking about Whoscored, this Copa Marketing was so irrelevant, Whoscored didn't even track any stats about it. No wonder Harmonica couldn't bombard us with "wide dribbling ghost assist importance" stats.

What are you talking about? Copa happens to be the name of the bad guy in the Super Mario series. And that makes it boss.

Kebab wrote:Eh futbol now i understand why Harmonica (which defends messi in every chance) doesnt reply to you anymore. because there is no use. You are just programmed for trolling

Ofcourse he is. On the discussion though, even as a very ardent Messi fan I think his NT performance is nothing to be proud of on contrary I would say it is quite ordinary considering his stature. If am Argentinian I would be pissed with him as shit. As Futbol mentioned 6hrs of when it most mattered and he doesn't have anything to show besides dribbling and getting corners.(that's gold BTW ).

It all explained in this thread what he did in 6 hours. As i said one goal from a team mate makes you a legend. If you dont believe me ask Ronaldo  

messi was only standout player from his team in those 3 finals. But others mentioned here xavi iniesta r9 even maradona got outshined by their team mates in different finals. it just shows how great their team was. If aguero or higuain outperformed messi in finals then Argentina would win everything.but they did opposite. This is a team game and you need your team mates to perform

R9 scored 2 goals against Germany in the WC 2002 final, Iniesta scored Spain's only goal against Netherlands in 2010, Zidane scored 2 against Brazil in 98 and a panenka against Germany in 06