Re: Barcelona vs Real Madrid

by sportsczy Sun Apr 03, 2016 3:10 pm

Barca have the same arrogance we had last season... the thing about football is that everything is about now. We won a Madrid-record 20 something games in a row in the middle of last season (no draws). But since it happened from Dec-February, it meant nothing. We lost form in March.

It's about being in top form at the right time while being efficient in the other periods.

And no, Barca aren't more talented than Madrid. They're just not other than the position Busquets plays... that's the only position where they have a clear advantage. The problem is that our pieces don't really fit together. So as a team, we don't function as well. It's not like we have 5-6 guys that don't fit. We have 2-3. We're compensating tactically for it.

Trophies are won in April and May. Let's see how this plays out. La Liga is tough because we dropped too many points under Rafa. Under Zidane, we're actually even. But CL is going to be very interesting.

by The Demon of Carthage Sun Apr 03, 2016 3:14 pm

We actually dropped points under Z as well, and against weak opposition. So while I agree that Rafa is the main reason why we're so far behind in the league, Z is not entirely innocent either. He could've done better.

Anyway, La Liga is done and dusted if you ask me. And the CL is unpredictable. We might have a chance, but everybody should bleed for it.

by sportsczy Sun Apr 03, 2016 3:20 pm

overall... he took over when the team was 7 points behind Barca and we're 7 points behind Barca now. Everyone drops points... but under Zidane, we've kept pace overall.

In all comps, we have 12 wins, 2 draws and 1 defeat under Zizou. With Rafa, we were 17 wins, 5 draws and 3 defeats. In la liga, Zizou is 10/2/1 +31 while Rafa was 11/4/3 +29. The improvement is significant in terms of actual results and our GF/GA ratio so far.

by FennecFox7 Sun Apr 03, 2016 3:43 pm

And sport, those players are Isco and James. Bale at first as well, but he's in top form now. Isco and James are out by the end of the season.. We don't have a use for them right now

by The Demon of Carthage Sun Apr 03, 2016 3:47 pm

If you're going to use Rafa as a reference point, even Moyes would come on top. Z is better than Rafa, who's even debating this? But is it enough? That remains to be seen.

We've dropped points where we shouldn't have and lost against Atlético. We played poorly against Roma. Just a week ago, most people thought Z was a lost cause.

He has redeemed himself with this win. But he still has to go all the way to earn our respect. If he wins against a top side in a two-legged tie in the semi-final of the CL, he'll have made a compelling case for that.

by sportsczy Sun Apr 03, 2016 3:49 pm

Everyone drops points every season... Barca dropped a ton last season and this one too. Usually happens against the lesser teams. That's just football. But you don't want to drop more points than your direct competition... we did under Rafa. We aren't under Zizou.

by The Demon of Carthage Sun Apr 03, 2016 4:22 pm

Forget about Rafa. We established, long ago, that Z is superior to the latter.

What Z needs to do is beat a top side in the semi-final of the CL, not just reach it ( because reaching it after beating the likes of Roma and Wolfsburg isn't that impressive). That's how you earn the respect of everybody. With this clasico win, he's halfway there. Let's hope now he does it against one of Europe's big sides when it matters most.

by alexjanosik Sun Apr 03, 2016 4:34 pm

halamadrid2 wrote:I also thought Messi was the root cause of Barca's problems. It is very predictable when he comes too centrally because place is overcrowded and every attempt at 1-2s will just ricochet between players and out to Busquets again who will start over by passing to Pique and we will regroup. Wash, rinse and repeat. Defensively i dont think Messi should be held accountable for Marcelo venturing forward. He is pretty much on his own on that left side. That blame goes to Rakitic. Because Marcelo kept cutting in which he does alot for us so if Enrique had watched any of our games he should have asked Rakitic to track Marcelo when he cuts in and Alves when he runs the byeline. I dont know where Rakitic was because he did not impose himself in the game enough for me to notice what he was doing. In the first half everytime Benz, Ronaldo or Bale had the ball they were very isolated because they cant dribble past players and thus tried to cut in or beat the barca fullbacks with pace, it looked really embarrassing for us especially when Ronaldo did it because he looked awfully clumsy when he was predictably disposessed.

However Marcelo was allowed to weave and slalom his way past players all half. Granted he is a good dribbler but the Barca players did bad tracking him. I would put the blame on Messi if Alves was constantly double teamed but he wasnt. Marcelo was like a one man offense on that left side and the Barca players failed to track him on so many levels. I would start by looking at Rakitic then Messi not the other way round

Suarez was very lively but was very isolated inbetween 5/6 Madrid players. He tried to drop back to play a 1-2 but that place was so congested one bad touch and we would have regained posession. It made it impossible for a through ball which meant any balls would had hve to come from the wings which brings me to my next point

What the hell was Neymar doing all game, he reminded me so much of Bale under Carlo i.e. stay by the fullback wait for a midfielder to get the ball so he can run behind our defence. I have always said it about our team if the best player is not having the best game (Messi) then the next guy has to step up and all Neymar did was pass the ball to Iniesta. Granted Carvajal is an excellent RB hard to get past but still take him on, you have a very offensive fullback behind you. Bale would have been overworked by always tracking back, only one lapse in concentration would have pinned Carvajal 2v1 which could have been the difference between a goal and not being able to create any chances on that side. Poor game from Neymar in fact dreadful game by him because he didnt even track back properly. All our chances came from his inability to track back and Bale being 1v1 with Alba (not good for Barca)

Secondly, I have said/asked it before but i will do it again any and every team out there knows against fast pacy players Marcelo will get lost but there was absolutely noone there. At one point Marcelo was chilling up there with Bale and Carvajal and no it was not due to a corner but he was allowed to do as he please and he is our best dribbler and most creative player. Like wtf put a winger on him and he will be forced to stay back and that wing will die a slow death

Lastly, when Arda came on Barca lost that discipline that Rakitic brought to them. We were just running through that midfield like there was noone there when Arda came on. At one point i saw him in our box Ramitic never does that. With Jese's speed that was a bad descision by Enrique to put him on. Another real CM would have been better. It gets on my nerves when a team puts a winger/AM as a CM. The whole shape juat gets so messed up

All in all thats how i would describe all Barca's problems

Regarding us,

I thought the defence bar Ramos had a very disciplined game particularly Carvajal who shut that right side and created our second goal by winning the ball from Neymar and running the length of the pitch through all the static Barca midfielder to their box. Pepe lost Pique for that goal and had some cringeworthy passes in the first half but he did a good job with Suarez and Iniesta. Ramos should have had 2 red cards. The sooner we cut our losses the less games he will cost us. I still remember that game we were playing our best clasico and he just screwed us over by getting a red and gifting a penalty in a game we ended up losing 4-3. Such an overrated indisciplined player. I am truly so sorry to the real good CBs out there who have to watch this guy get called the best CB in the world. I wholeheartedly apologise. Marcelo i have talked about was allowed to do as he pleased which is better for us

In the midfield although Kroos was alittle quite this game i noticed that everytime Barca tried to push our lines further and further back he would run up and pressure forcing Barca to pass backwards allowing our players to push up. And that kept going on all game. Casemiro was excellent in breaking up play, acted like a true DM by staying back and helping the fullback where all of the play was skewed to. Modric was exquisite, always doing the smart thing instead of punting it forward like Ramos wannabe Alonso and Pepe

The front 3 did their job defensively. I expected it from Bale because he has been doing it since Zidane came but Ronaldo man that was unexpected. I am happy he got the goal because i hoping that could give him so hope that even when he defdnds he can still get chances to score. Benzema was alittle lost and timid in the first half but in the second he was very good. Especially on those long balls that Navas usually never gets right, he usually brought the ball down comfortably and allowed everyone to get forward. Capped it off with an excellent goal

Navas kept us in the game in the first half particularly with that Messi shot. Nice save that. He was very assured all game and there was nothing he could do for the goal we conceded. That was a bullet header by Pique

I liked the sub Zidane chose. He loooked at the game and thought we could hit them with speed through the middle and thats exactly what Jese did. Just ran with speed through their tired midfield. I am happy Zidane had the balls to make that sub. Carlo would probably have brought on James and Isco for Casemiro and Benzema. Also i love how Zidane didnt put a CB on even when a man down and even when winning. No more antifootball Mou tainted our club with

Thing is, it is not possible for Rakitic to track Marcelo when he is out on the right wing. Once the initial Busquets press is broken, Rakitic is already behind the play. There is no way he can catch up with the play.
Normally it works because Busquets is perfect with the timing of the press and either wins the ball or slows down the play till Rakitic can get back in position. Didnt happen last night and Rakitic was tracking back with no chance of catching up on almost every counter.
Rakitic could have tracked Marcelo by not going wide and staying central. But then that would have left the middle even more cluttered. Messi is already there. Rakitic goes wide to stretch the play and provide the passing option.
In such a scenario , it is Messi's job to track the runner and help break the counter.

by sportsczy Sun Apr 03, 2016 4:48 pm

The Demon of Carthage wrote:Forget about Rafa. We established, long ago, that Z is superior to the latter.

What Z needs to do is beat a top side in the semi-final of the CL, not just reach it ( because reaching it after beating the likes of Roma and Wolfsburg isn't that impressive). That's how you earn the respect of everybody. With this clasico win, he's halfway there. Let's hope now he does it against one of Europe's big sides when it matters most.

Well. I'm not sure how you can expect him to do that with the team that we have. Competitive? Sure. That's reasonable. But since we have clear flaws that cannot be fixed until we adjust personnel... you can't put victory as an absolute must.

Mourinho couldn't beat Barca and didn't beat a top side in his first year in the big tournaments (La Liga and CL). Carlo did.. but also lost his first clasico. We were horrific under Carlo until January. You have to remember that Zizou took over in February... a struggling team, unfit and with no training camp. No ability to make transfers either since the mercato was closed.

I personally think he's already proven and won over the job given our progress since he's taken over. We look cohesive and tight for the first time this season. The players are playing as a team. To me, that's more than enough.

Not to mention he put Carvajal and Casemiro in as starters and is playing Vazquez and Jese as the first subs... he isn't playing it safe at all. Heck, he even put Danilo at LB which was a good call.

by Valkyrja Sun Apr 03, 2016 4:51 pm

under carlo we started to play decent football in november, when xabi returned. until then we had been looking clueles.

by futbol_bill Sun Apr 03, 2016 5:41 pm

sportsczy wrote:Barca have the same arrogance we had last season... the thing about football is that everything is about now. We won a Madrid-record 20 something games in a row in the middle of last season (no draws). But since it happened from Dec-February, it meant nothing. We lost form in March.

It's about being in top form at the right time while being efficient in the other periods.

And no, Barca aren't more talented than Madrid. They're just not other than the position Busquets plays... that's the only position where they have a clear advantage. The problem is that our pieces don't really fit together. So as a team, we don't function as well. It's not like we have 5-6 guys that don't fit. We have 2-3. We're compensating tactically for it.

Trophies are won in April and May. Let's see how this plays out. La Liga is tough because we dropped too many points under Rafa. Under Zidane, we're actually even. But CL is going to be very interesting.

SPorts, that's bullshit!

1. we didn't have arrogance lst year nor does Barca now. We had balance, which we haven't for most of this season, but we played with only 12 players. We burnt out, two years in a row, we didn't lose form.

2. Barca are more talented than us starting with their front three. Every one of theirs is superior to ours on an individual basis let alone much superior on a collective effort. I'll agree with you on midfield, but that missing Busquets is the major reason we lack balance. On defense I would say we are superior, but according to you guys three of our defense is shit.

3. you are missing the point that last night's game meant nothing to Barca. Barca goes by Messi, Iniesta and Busquets. Messi playing central, gave freedom to Marcelo which was key to out success and Messi was shutdown by the two guys you say are crap. Iniesta was literally taken out of the game by Modric, something you great analysts have yet to observe and Busquets was out of form having just returned.

by sportsczy Sun Apr 03, 2016 5:57 pm

Of course it meant something. They are only 6 points ahead of Atleti and 7 on us... that means they can't afford another mishap or the pressure is really on. It's a classico at the Camp Nou with a record winning streak and after Cruyff's passing... not to mention, they played their top players all the way until the end. Now, they have to play La Liga games all very seriously while still competing in CL and CDR final coming up too. Barca play their starting XI to death and, mark my words, they will drop more points. Atleti tie is going to take a lot out of them too.

They are not better than us individually. Benz is as good as Suarez. Bale in his current form is as good as Neymar. Ronaldo and Messi are both hot and cold this season. Modric is better than Rakitic imo. Iniesta is better than Kroos and Busquets > Casemiro. However, Carvajal-Pepe-Ramos-Marcelo > Alves-Pique-Mascherano-Alba. Our keeper is better too.

Individually, there is no difference except in the midfield.

What separates the two is that Barca's tactics are well honed while we're always a work in progress.

by halamadrid2 Sun Apr 03, 2016 6:02 pm

alexjanosik wrote:

Thing is, it is not possible for Rakitic to track Marcelo when he is out on the right wing. Once the initial Busquets press is broken, Rakitic is already behind the play. There is no way he can catch up with the play.
Normally it works because Busquets is perfect with the timing of the press and either wins the ball or slows down the play till Rakitic can get back in position. Didnt happen last night and Rakitic was tracking back with no chance of catching up on almost every counter.
Rakitic could have tracked Marcelo by not going wide and staying central. But then that would have left the middle even more cluttered. Messi is already there. Rakitic goes wide to stretch the play and provide the passing option.
In such a scenario , it is Messi's job to track the runner and help break the counter.

I dont deny that Messi did the wrong thing by going centrally but disagree that Messi should be held accountable for Marcelo venturing forward with little resistance. Lets take the goal for example, that is just one of many examples of Rakitic' laziness

To start with Marcelo is well within our half. Alba has just made a bad pass Barca press and we get out of it. Up until now it is normal

Spoiler:

Then Marcelo gets the ball look at Rakitic covering shadows instead of blocking Marcelo's path to your goal

Spoiler:

Marcelo keeps running with it but Rakitic is jogging behind him literally

Spoiler:

The he stops tracking him and joins in with the rest of the Barca players by Ronaldo instead of going with Marcelo in order to disrupt his last pass to Kroos. Why he suddenly stops running after him is beyond me

Spoiler:

There isnt a single attacker that will follow a fullback when he cuts in. Thats where the CMs come in and Rakitic was just jogging waiting for someone elser to do his dirty work. None of that would have changed with Messi tracking Marcelo because Messi would have stopped running the moment Marcelo cut in and he did it basically straight away. Thats why i dont blame Messi as much as Rakitic

by alexjanosik Sun Apr 03, 2016 6:40 pm

Thanks for the pics. Yes Rakitic should maybe have tracked Marcelo better on that play. Impossible to tell without looking at the video. I will take a look again. As I mentioned Busquets is nowhere in the pic.
But that was a case of when the play was on the left. I am talking of the times when the play was on the right and we lost it. The times when Rakitic was wide right and Messi central.

by Nedved Sun Apr 03, 2016 6:41 pm

Ramos: If I knew Madrid would win with 10 men, I would've got sent off earlier!

Dude definitely tried to get himself sent off much earlier :facepalm:

For a captain and central defender - he is wayward. You never know which Ramos shows up. I bet RM is looking at the market.

by The Demon of Carthage Sun Apr 03, 2016 7:35 pm

sportsczy: I think your love and admiration for the man are blocking you from seeing things as they truly are. You've raised many valid points as to why expecting him to win something this year is a little bit far-fetched. I totally agree with that.

But nobody is expecting him to win anything. What some of us are expecting, however, is some convincing as to why he should be kept on beyond this season. He defeated Barça at Camp Nou. That's a massive accomplishment and one that truly adds some valuable points to his CV. But he lost to Atlético at home. Looked shaky against a wasteful and lackluster Roma, and pretty much against every single away game we've had ever since he took over bar the clasico. I would say the Barça game outweighs the rest, but he definitely still has some convincing to do.

Some of you seem to be thinking that reaching the CL semi-final is enough proof for us to keep him. But nobody took the time to see how the path to the semis is paved: Roma-Wolfsburg. None of them is elite. So if he reaches the semis, it won't be that impressive because I'm pretty sure many managers would reach it if they had those opponents. But if he does well against a tough opposition in the semis, he'll prove his doubters wrong, and I'll be the first to support him.

Honestly, I want Z to succeed as much as you do. I'm tired of firing managers and starting over every year. Z is loved by the players and he's actually doing what none of his predecessors did: benching high profile players and subbing off members of the BBC. Heck, he even got Ronaldo to defend last night. Even Mourinho couldn't do that.

But as far as his claim goes, he still hasn't done enough to earn his keep. Beat a semi-finalist, and you'll get my vote.

by Turok_TTZ Sun Apr 03, 2016 7:54 pm

Marcus Aurelius wrote:
Turok_TTZ wrote:Hopefully now the overration of Barcelona ends.
With sensible heads we triumphed.
Zidane has proven himself... I am pleased we showed barcelona how to win a match.

BBC > MSN.

You showed Barca how to win a match? 0-4 rings a bell? 7 points advantage in the leauge ring a bell? What about 39 games unbeaten run?

Consistency wins you titles not one odd game. Keep your small minds together.

Regardless of your salt, how you feel makes no difference on the facts of the matter that barca was lazy in comparison to madrid.
I thought Real madrid had its own problems with primadonnas not tracking back but look and behold, barca are capable of laziness too.

Yesterday's clasico didn't matter? Right when y'all needed a tribute win for your late Cruyff? Barca players disinterested and cant be bothered to give a decent shift when one of your own passed away? I would be very embarrassed if I was a barca supporter. Madrid showed cruyff more respect in el clasico by working hard and actually trying to win match. God rest his soul that man.

Small minds? Is this bait? Take a gander at yer own post you uncouth troglodyte. Real madrid already surrendered the league before season started when we hired "that man" who is worse than Mourinho. League dont matter anymore, just salvaging a season that has been derailed since july. To lose to a broken team such as ours, I would be mad and salty too.

Bill, stop trying to deflect shitty ramos performance. What is up with countrymen defending their own when one is shit? Ramos red cards at 30 years old is a legitimate concern. And one which needs addressing. Its not a good look on Ramos when pepe, varane, and even nacho are better defenders. As captain, Ramos needs to set an example and these red cards are bad on the armband and bad for the club. He was very fortunate not to have been sent off sooner. At what point will it take for the spanish press to shit on ramos and call him out on his bs? When he eventually costs spain an early exit from the euro 2016? We need to wake up and smell the coffee. Ramos is a liability and has been for too long. If Zidane is wise, he best speak to ramos on either mature up or get out. His attitude on the matter aint helping. He's the captain ffs. You wouldnt see this with Raul.

by halamadrid2 Sun Apr 03, 2016 7:59 pm

I think Zidane has done very well since taking over. Our away form has been rather hit and miss but he has managed the squad well after Rafa did everything in his power to destroy our players. Losing to Atleti is arguably the biggest set back imo even more so than those dropped points away. Atleti only ever get 1 chance against us and they always score while we look clueless. Granted back then Zidane was still trying to raise the self esteem of James and we ended up paying with points. Now that he has become benched Zidane is playing the more effective players like Casemiro, Lucas and Jese and is finally reaping the rewards

He was unlucky not to have a preseason and had to tinker within the season. He doesnt try to fit square pegs in round holes anymore. He knows our most balanced line up and sticks to it.

He basically has a set 11 for the CL now with nobody in the starting line up in bad form apart from Ronaldo maybe. The bad form players are all on the bench struggling for minutes

In that sense Zidane has been exceölent. He put his confidence in the front 3 and stopped playing players based on price and shirt sales. Carlo and Rafa both did not have the balls to do thst

I say so far so good. I did not expect much from the league being 7 points down when he took over. But CL is where he will be judged properly. He reaches a final and he will be an instant hero (finals ate our thing anyways) just gotta get past that Semi-final hurdle

by sportsczy Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:38 pm

Ramos actually cost Spain an early exit in WC 2014 (along with Casillas and, to a lesser extent, Pique)... but he got a pass from the media. It was easier to put all the blame on Casillas' shoulder because he was on his way out both at Madrid and Spain NT anyhow. We'll see how this Euro goes. I think he gets exposed again assuming Alba starts.

by StrugaRock Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:41 pm

@Deamon I think the case with Z is that we cannot find a better man for the job at the moment. As far as suitable replacements go, there is Van Gaal, Mourinho, Pellegrini, Pochettino and Low.

The first three are a no go at any case, Low is a copy cat to whatever Bayern does and Pochettino could be a rather good replacement, other than that I don't see a man suitable to lead us. It will be the same as the time we tried to replace Ancelotti and ended up with a fat potato.

by FennecFox7 Mon Apr 04, 2016 2:38 am

Van Gaal and Mou. Oh come fking on. Now your just throwing names. Pellegrini Laughing

Any of these over a club legend who has turned this team around completely? Wow. Talk about overthinking

by Valkyrja Mon Apr 04, 2016 9:25 am

https://i.imgur.com/XKuLNiR.webm

this was glorious back in the day rofl

by StrugaRock Mon Apr 04, 2016 9:29 am

You didn't get my point.

Deamon says that he is still skeptic about Z earning the right to be our coach, to some extent he is right. But if Perez(I don't think you suspect who gets to choose who continues, him or us) decides to part ways with Z, who is there to replace him?

I am not throwing names around, those are the guys that could be available in the summer.

PS: I still think Z should continue at helm.

by Valkyrja Mon Apr 04, 2016 11:51 am

Marcus Aurelius wrote:
Valkyrja wrote:
Marcus Aurelius wrote:
You showed Barca how to win a match? 0-4 rings a bell? 7 points advantage in the leauge ring a bell? What about 39 games unbeaten run?

Consistency wins you titles not one odd game. Keep your small minds together.

Should give you an avatar and signature right ?

Yeah mate, I am waiting

and here we go

sig :

Barcelona vs Real Madrid - Page 6 Luis_enrique_zidane

avatar:

Barcelona vs Real Madrid - Page 6 467284144-cristiano-ronaldo-of-real-madrid-celebrates-gettyimages

end of the season means 28th of may

by shadexticos Mon Apr 04, 2016 1:34 pm

I agree with Demon of Carthage. Zidane is halfway there and he just needs to beat one top team in the semis to be truly worth the position.

I give Zidane a 9/10 for the tactics he deployed in the clasico; he has shown us that he takes his time to study his opponents. I think it was genius to concede possession to Barca. He knew Barca will want to pay tribute to Cryuff by playing 'total' football.
It was also genius to bring in Jese and play him through the middle. His speed, energy and close control gave barca's tiring midfield some headache.

From midfielder to attack, i think this team is complete.

We just need another top class defender to partner with varane, Sell Ramos off for about 40 million or more, make pepe and nacho the first centre back substitutes.

I dont think we need a left back; Danilo has been impressive there and Nacho can also play that position.

by shadexticos Mon Apr 04, 2016 1:42 pm

I kind of disagree with people faulting the tactics of playing messing centrally.
Messi's position gave Barca more control of the ball in the midfield. Madrid had 4 players in the midfield when they didnt have the ball. If you add Ronaldo and Benzema breathing down on Barca's Midfielders that gives you 6 players.
Messi on the right might have created the odd chance through his shear genius, but madrid would have had more control of the midfield and created more attacks.
With messi on the right, i believe we would have seem a high scoring game with both teams creating chances.

Another possibility is that madrid would have outnumbered the midfielders and prevented them from creating chances for barca'a attackers and at the same time, have more possession of the ball. More possession equals more counters which equals more goals.

Despite the criticism of messi, most of the half chances barca created were through him.

Barca just needs to go back to the drawing board and figure a way around this new problem called Zidane's Madrid.

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