Now that Dishmar has established himself as the 2nd best player in the world, who is the 3rd best player?

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After Messi and Dishmar, who is the 3rd best (attacking) player in the world?

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Post by rwo power Wed Nov 11, 2015 9:25 am

free_cat wrote:So, you would also prefer to have Theo Walcott in your team rather than Leo Messi?
Nope, but that would actually be a lot  due to the fact that I consider him a liability as he is too injury prone. Plus English players usually have a very bad price/performance ratio.

As for Messi - IMO he is to expensive anyway - for most teams it doesn't make sense to consider adding a Messi as that would mean there would be no resources left to build a sensible team. After all it is no use to have one superstar and the rest are scrubs because you can afford no others.

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Post by Harmonica Wed Nov 11, 2015 11:03 am

goal impact, where statpadding against Rayo is better than scoring against Atletico. Proud
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Post by Valkyrja Wed Nov 11, 2015 11:19 am

Harmonica wrote:goal impact, where statpadding against Rayo is better than scoring against Atletico. Proud


Stats are stats anyway
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Post by El Messico Wed Nov 11, 2015 11:49 am

Harmonica wrote:goal impact, where statpadding against Rayo is better than scoring against Atletico. Proud


They might already be adjusting for opponent team quality. If not, that's something they can consider too.

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Post by free_cat Wed Nov 11, 2015 2:44 pm

rwo power wrote:
free_cat wrote:So, you would also prefer to have Theo Walcott in your team rather than Leo Messi?
Nope, but that would actually be a lot  due to the fact that I consider him a liability as he is too injury prone. Plus English players usually have a very bad price/performance ratio.

As for Messi - IMO he is to expensive anyway - for most teams it doesn't make sense to consider adding a Messi as that would mean there would be no resources left to build a sensible team. After all it is no use to have one superstar and the rest are scrubs because you can afford no others.


Don't consider the cost, as Goalimpact doens't consider it. Just imagine RWO is offered both Walcott or Messi for free. You take Walcott because he helps the team more to win, according to goalimpact?
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Post by rwo power Wed Nov 11, 2015 4:19 pm

Well, it also depends on whether I have an opening in my team in the position and whether I have the impression that the chemistry with the player works. (E.g. I would never contract CR7 for a team of mine even if he'd have a higher goal impact than any other player in my team as I can't see him fit in properly.

If I have players that play on the same position and cost the same money and appear as if they would fit in, I would certainly go for the player with the higher GI.
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Post by Bankz Wed Nov 11, 2015 5:05 pm

In this case, walcott is cheaper and has a higher goal impact so, would u take him over messi?
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Post by Harmonica Wed Nov 11, 2015 5:47 pm

Nor does it consider that best players usually rest against easier opponents. It only considers goals, assists, not involvement which could be more crucial. Very low level site.
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Post by Jafo Wed Nov 11, 2015 8:57 pm

What is goalimpact?

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Post by rwo power Wed Nov 11, 2015 10:26 pm

Jafo wrote:What is goalimpact?
http://www.goalimpact.com/

Btw, this article takes a look at Ibra, Walcott, CR7 and Benzema with some explanations:
http://www.goalimpact.com/2015/04/how-to-read-goalimpact-chart.html
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Post by Jafo Thu Nov 12, 2015 8:14 am

How Neymar is not even in top 50? Its surely wrong measurement to rate players

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Post by rwo power Thu Nov 12, 2015 11:45 am

"David Alaba, James Rodríguez and Neymar finally made it into the list. All absolutely deserved."
http://www.goalimpact.com/2015/10/top-50-football-players-october-2015.html
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Post by Curtinho Thu Nov 12, 2015 11:46 am

Yeah, goalimpact is a farce. Whoscored is better.
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Post by free_cat Thu Nov 12, 2015 2:36 pm

It's not a farce, it's just another stat. Unless you find the perfect statistic algorythm to define a player's impact on a game (which so far I don't think it's been found, though whoscored is pretty good), stat's can't tell the whole picture, but can help to notice player's who are under the radar, or spot weaknesses or strengths.

It's absurd on goalimpact stat to say you would pick Messi or Walcott "depending on the team". You should always take Messi.
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Post by Curtinho Thu Nov 12, 2015 3:04 pm

Well yes stats should always be supplementary...there is always too much going on in a game to ever quantify (especially mentally). That said Whoscored at least provides a large number of stats independent of bias with which to help form opinions on.
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Post by Hapless_Hans Thu Nov 12, 2015 3:15 pm

The Franchise wrote:Come on Germans, be real here.

Muller cannot create for himself and certainly not for anyone else with the ball. The biggest reason you (Bayern) lost to Barca was exactly that, you didnt have guys who could individually destabilise the defence and cause displacement of defenders, with the ball. You had the guys who could do that WITHOUT the ball, but you need and needed someone who can do it with the ball too.

Muller is a devastating player when you have other players who can do that destabilisation and alot of Mullers biggest assets (off ball movement to, never using more touches than he needs) are underrated, but he is no Neymar.

Muller is not a special player, he like the ultimate "role player".



So what? Why does being 'the ultimate role player' (whatever that's supposed to mean) not make him special too?

Once again, one certain set of attributes (and YOU be real here for a second, basically it boils down to dribbling lol) is highlighted as what makes a player 'good' or 'special' over other attributes.
You seem to think if someone makes a great run and his teammate finds him with a pass, the chance was created by the passer, instead of by both.

But that's not the point, and neither is this about 'Germans'.

The point is that this notion which is now being shoved down everyone's throat by a certain set of fans, that Neymar is the 'established' second best player in the world, is ridiculous.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm not the one coming here saying Müller is 'better' than Neymar. I'm not the one saying Müller is the 'second best player' in the world. That would be uncalled for.

I'm just pointing out that there's no ground whatsoever to claim Neymar is now clearly, 'truthfully', or 'objectively' as Bankz words it, a better player than, say, Robben, Aguero, Müller, Lewandowski, or others.

Obviously you guys watch Barca regularly and thus are enthused about Neymar's performances. I watch Bayern regularly so I highlight my players.
Other clubs are playing too, and their players perform great week in week out too.

The effort to put down and engrave in stone that someone is 'the best' might have been reasonable in Messi's case, it's not in Neymars, yet.
And it's an annoying detour of what football is about in any case.

Again, obviously Neymar is a fantastic player and already among the very best. Better than cr7? Sure, why not, at least in my opinion.
But that's not enough for some people.
He needs to be the 'established best after Messi', as if noone else existed. Laughing

And if the list above is too much Bayern bias for your taste, then let me rephrase:
Why should we consider Neymar as 'clearly', or 'established', a better attacker than Suarez?
That's absolutely unprovable, merely hype and propaganda.

Now futbol jumped on this tongue-in-cheek, or let's say keeping his options open to declare it tongue-in-cheek as he always does.
Pretty sure he'd be ready to throw Neymar under the bus given the occasion just as well.

But I can see monomanic fanboys like Bankz spamming this forum, and probably forums all over the world, with this 'best player' obsession for the foreseeable future, and I'm merely trying to push back early on.
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Post by Kaladin Thu Nov 12, 2015 3:43 pm

chat shit get banged
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Post by futbol Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:23 pm

You are making this harder than it is by trying to be overly objective. It's actually not that hard to tell whether Neymar is superior to Müller or Agüero.

The funy thing is that the "Raumdeuter" ("space interpreter") image of Müller is overblown since moving into space is Müller's (only) major strength. But there are players with even better movement off the ball to get into scoring positions. Neymar being one of them. Laughing Otherwise he wouldn't score so much more. Müller's top scoring season is 27 in all competitions and 13 in Bundesliga. Neymar had 39 goals last season when he was 22. With all the missed clear cut chances he should have actually hit around 50. His potential to get into goalscoring positions with his off the ball movement blows Müller's out of the water by quite some margin. Now factor in that he can also play a different role where he doesn't get at the end of chances but he can also carry the ball from deep, take on defenders and require double marking and there isn't really anything that Müller is superior at. Fairly easy to see.

Obviously the "2nd best player in the world" tag was a bit in jest as a reference to Gil's thread but it's also not really outlandish in any case. And no, Agüero is clearly not better either. Also easy to see. Robben would be a fair comparison but Robben played what? 10 games in 2015? And is turning 32 soon? Bleh. If he isn't finished he will be in the next 24 months while Dishmar will just upgrade to a full-automatic washing machine.

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Post by rwo power Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:42 pm

You might want to check the number of goals normally scored by single players in the Bundesliga. This is always way lower than in the Spanish Liga. So I would surmise it is a matter of different tactics that spread the goal scoring between far more players in German clubs, while in Spain at least Barca and Real focus a lot on their star players, helping them to rack up goals.

Gladbach for example scored 23 goals so far in this season (3rd most in the BL behind Bayern and Dortmund), but they had 11 (!) different scorers, the top scorer being Raffael with only 5 goals.

Here's the lists of the topscorers of the BL seasons so far- You might notice that several times the top scorer didn't even need 20 goals in a season to win the Torjägerkananone: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_Torsch%C3%BCtzenk%C3%B6nige_der_Fu%C3%9Fball-Bundesliga
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Post by Hapless_Hans Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:52 pm

futbol wrote:You are making this harder than it is by trying to be overly objective. It's actually not that hard to tell whether Neymar is superior to Müller or Agüero.

The funy thing is that the "Raumdeuter" ("space interpreter") image of Müller is overblown since moving into space is Müller's (only) major strength. But there are players with even better movement off the ball to get into scoring positions. Neymar being one of them. Laughing Otherwise he wouldn't score so much more. Müller's top scoring season is 27 in all competitions and 13 in Bundesliga. Neymar had 39 goals last season when he was 22. With all the missed clear cut chances he should have actually hit around 50. His potential to get into goalscoring positions with his off the ball movement blows Müller's out of the water by quite some margin. Now factor in that he can also play a different role where he doesn't get at the end of chances but he can also carry the ball from deep, take on defenders and require double marking and there isn't really anything that Müller is superior at. Fairly easy to see.

Obviously the "2nd best player in the world" tag was a bit in jest as a reference to Gil's thread but it's also not really outlandish in any case. And no, Agüero is clearly not better either. Also easy to see. Robben would be a fair comparison but Robben played what? 10 games in 2015? And is turning 32 soon? Bleh. If he isn't finished he will be in the next 24 months while Dishmar will just upgrade to a full-automatic washing machine.


LMAO Neymar finding 'space' and score 4 goals against Rayo Vallecano Laughing
Lewa scores 4 against Real and 5 against Wolfsburg though.

Neymar has 60 something goals for Brazil :bow:
About 50 of those in friendlies though, while Müller scores his goals in qualifiers and tournaments.

And what about Suarez? He's worse than Neymar in your opinion?
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Post by futbol Thu Nov 12, 2015 5:04 pm

Hadn't we already established that Bundeslol is made up of 16 Rayo Vallecanos? Laughing

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Post by Bankz Thu Nov 12, 2015 5:33 pm

Yes, like jibers said, Neymar is a clearly better player than suarez.

What does suarez have over Neymar aside attitude and work rate?

Without messi, Neymar has been the better player in the team by some margin (btw, let's not even get into some whoscored stats). He's a better creator, is faster, is technically superior, has better off the ball movement, a better dribbler, a better scorer and is a better passer.

The only thing is people have more memories of suarez's good football due to him being in europe as the main man for his teams for a longer time (say 8 years now) as opposed to Neymar who's barely played for 2 seasons. Afterall, he's 28 and 5 years older than Neymar, so, its only normal to think he's as good as Neymar when u factor in the things you've seeing him do as the main man of his team as opposed to Neymar who we've mostly only seeing as a dish washer and passenger and not the main player.

On level ground and on pure footballing ability, with both being the major players in their teams, suarez doesn't hold a candle to Neymar. I have eyes to see it, a brain to comprehend it and facts to back it up.
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Post by futbol Thu Nov 12, 2015 5:37 pm

rwo power wrote:You might want to check the number of goals normally scored by single players in the Bundesliga. This is always way lower than in the Spanish Liga. So I would surmise it is a matter of different tactics that spread the goal scoring between far more players in German clubs, while in Spain at least Barca and Real focus a lot on their star players, helping them to rack up goals.

Gladbach for example scored 23 goals so far in this season (3rd most in the BL behind Bayern and Dortmund), but they had 11 (!) different scorers, the top scorer being Raffael with only 5 goals.

Here's the lists of the topscorers of the BL seasons so far- You might notice that several times the top scorer didn't even need 20 goals in a season to win the Torjägerkananone: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_Torsch%C3%BCtzenk%C3%B6nige_der_Fu%C3%9Fball-Bundesliga


That's because world class forwards rarely play in Bundesliga and not because Bundesliga teams have fundamentally different tactics than the rest of the world.

Ronaldo, Romario, Rivaldo, van Nistelrooy, Henry, Sheva, Raul, Villa, Eto'o, Suarez, Forlan, Ibra, Drogba, Cristiano, Messi. If you think of the greatest goalscorers of the past 20 years, current Bayern aside, none of them played in Bundesliga.

Robben's record is 76 goals in 133 games (0.57 goals per game) as a winger who has been injured or not fit in half of those appearances: 0.73 goals per 90 minutes. If he actually stayed fit and took penalties he'd score about 1 goal per game.

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Post by rwo power Thu Nov 12, 2015 8:24 pm

Or one could see it that there were no great goal scorers in the BL because the setup of the teams here usually doesn't support a single player as focus?

Let's see, I'll take the list you posted and add some more and one can simply take a view at the numbers. I'm pretty curious myself, I have to admit. I'll use only the Top5 leagues from the CVs of the players.

Ronaldo  (BRA): 67 goals / 104 matches = 0.644
La Liga (Barca, Real): 117/164 = 0.713
Serie A (Inter, Milan): 58/88 = 0.659

Romario (BRA): 55/71 = 0.775
La Liga (Barca, Valencia):  39 / 57 = 0.684

Rivaldo (BRA): 34/74 = 0.459
La Liga (Depor, Barca):  107/198 = 0.540
Serie A (Milan): 5/22 = 0.227

van Nistelrooy (NED): 35/70 = 0.500
La Liga (Real, Málaga): 50/96 = 0.521
Premier League (ManUtd): 95/150 = 0.633
Bundesliga (HSV): 12/36 = 0.333

Henry (FRA): 51/123 = 0.415
La Liga (Barca): 35/80 = 0.438
Premier League (Arsenal): 226/368 = 0.614
Serie A (Juve): 3/16 = 0.188
Ligue 1 (Monaco): 20/105 = 0.190

Shevchenko (UKR): 48/111 = 0.432
Premier League (Chelsea): 9/47 = 0.191
Serie A (Milan): 127/226 = 0.562

Raúl (ESP): 44/102 = 0.431
La Liga (Real): 228/550 = 0.415
Bundesliga (Schalke): 28/66 = 0.424

David Villa (ESP): 61/97 = 0.629
La Liga (Valencia,  Barca, Atléti, …): 222/430 = 0.516

Eto'o (CAM): 56/118 = 0.475
La Liga (Barca): 108/145 = 0.745
Premier League (Chelsea, Everton): 12/35 = 0.343
Serie A (Inter, Sampdoria): 35/85 = 0.412

Luis Suárez (URU): 44/82 = 0.537
La Liga (Barca): 25/37 = 0.676
Premier League (Liverpool): 69/110 = 0.627

Forlán (URU): 36/112 = 0.321
La Liga (Villarreal, Atléti): 128/240 = 0.533
Premier League (ManUtd): 10/63 = 0.159
Serie A (Inter): 2/18 = 0.111

Ibrahimovic (SWE): 59/109 = 0.541
La Liga (Barca): 16/29 = 0.552
Serie A (Juve, Inter, Milan): 122/218 = 0.560
Ligue 1 (PSG): 84/99 = 0.848

Drogba (CIV): 65/104 = 0.625
Premier League (Chelsea): 104/254 = 0.409
Ligue 1 (Guingamp, OM): 36/80 = 0.450

CR7 (POR): 55/123 = 0.447
La Liga (Real): 233/211 = 1.104
Premier League (ManUtd):  84/196 = 0.429

Messi (ARG): 49/105 = 0.467
La Liga (Barca): 289/321 = 0.900

Huntelaar (NED): 41/73 = 0.562
La Liga (Real): 8/20 = 0.400
Serie A (Milan): 7/25 = 0.280
Bundesliga (Schalke): 72/138 = 0.522

Miro Klose (GER) 71/137 = 0.518
Serie A (Lazio): 47/120 = 0.392
Bundesliga (1FCK, Werder, Bayern): 121/307 = 0.394

Thomas Müller (GER) 31/67 = 0.463
Bundesliga (Bayern): 82/209 = 0.392

Gerd Müller (GER) 68/62 = 1.097
Bundesliga (Bayern): 398/453 = 0.879

Robben (NED): 28/87 = 0.322
La Liga (Real): 11/50 = 0.220
Premier League (Chelsea): 15/67 = 0.224
Bundesliga (Bayern): 76/133 = 0.571

Benzema (FRA): 25/78 = 0.321
La Liga (Real): 93/194 = 0.479
Ligue 1 (Lyon): 43/112 = 0.384

Neymar (BRA): 46/67 = 0.687
La Liga (Barca): 32/61 = 0.523

One thing one can see. The German players score less in the BL than in the NT, while neither CR7 nor Messi are really so great in the NT (or CR7 in the PL), so for the latter two their scoring record really does seem to be skewed due to the setup of Real and Barca.

It is interesting, though, that some players (Ronaldo,  Rivaldo, Eto'o, Suárez, Forlán, Benzema, CR7 and Messi) do have a (sometimes very significantly) higher goal to game ration in the Spanish league than elsewhere. Robben and Huntelaar score best in the Bundesliga, though. And Ibra obviously found his utter scoring happiness in Paris.
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Post by futbol Thu Nov 12, 2015 9:09 pm

rwo power wrote:Or one could see it that there were no great goal scorers in the BL because the setup of the teams here usually doesn't support a single player as focus?


Frankly, I don't get it. Are you implying that a plethora of different coaches with different teams in different leagues in different eras (Romario under Cruyff in the early 90s, Ronaldo under Robbson in 98, Eto'o under Rijkaard in the 00s, Drogba under Ancelotti in England, Ibra under Allegri in Italy etc.) all "focus on 1 player" and only all Bundesliga clubs are completely different for some magical reason and that's the reason why no one in Bundesliga scores so many goals?

I'd say the reason is a lot more simple than that. There weren't many great forwards in Bundesliga. Laughing

How would this even make sense at all? So Pep at Barca just focused on Messi which is why Messi scored so much but in Bundesliga he completely changed his tactics and that's why a single player doesn't score so much?

Pls.

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Post by rwo power Thu Nov 12, 2015 9:25 pm

On the other hand, how do you explain that in La Liga the goal quotas seem to be much higher than in other leagues for quite some of the star strikers?

For example, you can't say that Argentina is such a bad team, but still Messi only scores half the goals there, similar with CR7, the latter scoring far more at Real than with both Portugal and ManUtd.
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