The Who makes who look better paradox?

Ah, and still Barca is a bunch of decent players who rise to WC levels because of chemistry and Pep’s genius (oh wait Pep's average remember)

That’s football all about…

By the way I am positively sure the guy believes that Christiano and Kaka in his current form are way more complete players than our trio

BarcaKizz wrote:There's a line you cross where what you say no longer has any power because its just so ridiculous/blindly stupid/trolling. This crosses that line.

Very well said kizz.

About the other points as kizz said they are indeed well thought out but most are debatable. Here's my take.

1. Xavi - Yes the kind of game Xavi plays is obviously going to be helped if he has players who can pass well and move well off the ball. Also while he can give all kinds of quality passes you need someone to make use of them. So one or more quality strikers and preferably also second strikers are indeed needed.

2. Iniesta - Whether Iniesta is capable of running a midfield alone or not is debatable. There are some like me who believe that he can. There are others who think he can't. As it stands we have no way of proving either way because in all his teams he plays with Xavi. Perhaps the future will tell us more about this. Yes there are AMs who have better goal instinct and finishing than him no question. However he is a CAM - more central than attacking. There are a lot of other things that he does in a game since he plays a more multi-dimensional role rather than a specialized role. I am quite sure he can play a specialized role too but the formation and style of play will have to change for that. As it stands that's open to debate how well he will do in that and we really don't have much of a way to prove either side of the argument.

3. Messi - It's not Messi who needs those players behind him. It's the false number 9 role which will not work without those kinds of players. There are a lot of other systems in which he can play brilliantly. If he plays as an AM in a counter-attacking system as alex explained he is likely to do very well. If he plays on the right wing then his success depends very little on anyone else. He can also play as proper CF but that won't do complete justice to his abilities.

4. Marking - If the team depends on only one player then he is not so difficult to mark out of a game no matter who he is.

5. Complete or incomplete players - Open to definition. There is no player who can do everything. Iniesta was called the most complete midfielder by Del Bosque who said he is equally good when attacking and defending. However there are many other ways to define this and as per the definition who you call complete will change.

6. Spain - The reason they could not create many chances was the defensive setup and players not being used in their best roles. It was needed because we had lost Senna and Del Bosque didn't trust either X.Alonso or Busquets to completely replace him. I agree with that though i feel it should be changed now. Anyway as a result of this the play became conservative. Also it took players time to grasp the new system. They were at their best only in the last two games and there they did create quite a few chances that were missed with David Villa who had then run out of steam being especially of guilty of missing some easy ones. Let's not forget all said and done they won the world cup and they did it without Messi or Zidane playing for them. A game breaking player like Messi as dani says is of course a jewel to have but that doesn't mean players of this quality cannot work without him. Spain was praised a lot for their beautiful play in Euro 2008 and they didn't have Messi or Zidane there either.

Omniscient wrote:


Xavi's accurate low passes wouldn't be as influential in any other team without several other creative players to exchange quick passes with. He's not quite top level at playing the killer pass in the final third.

Xavi 29 assists 08/09


He made like 20+ more the 09/10 but I could only find this.

More than 120 assists for Barça in his career.

i dont see where the confusion comes from

iniesta and xavi make messi look better then CR7 because they bos that midfield and make it much easier for him

and danni alves makes sergio biscuits look like less of a diver becomes theres two face grabbers instead of one

fatman123 wrote:
and danni alves makes sergio biscuits look like less of a diver becomes theres two face grabbers instead of one

This post has been reported to the moderators for trolling and trying to cause trouble with Barcelona fans.

messixaviesta wrote:This post has been reported to the moderators for trolling and trying to cause trouble with Barcelona fans.

Thanks JD.

Jack Daniels wrote:
Thanks JD.

Most welcome. Instead I should thank you for taking prompt action.

One nice answer to this thread topic is there in my signature itself.

"The Barcelona style is the perfect combination of the collective and the individual."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synergy

Pretty cool concept, if you learn it it can really help you out in life

You dont have to thank me

billy_gr wrote:
By the way I am positively sure the guy believes that Christiano and Kaka in his current form are way more complete players than our trio

A realistic point of view on Xavi, Messi, and Iniesta automatically means that I'm a Madrid fanboy? :bball:

I think this is why most (not all!!!) Barca fans are ridiculed and ganged up on so often. I haven't seen many Barcelona fans who can discuss players/tactics without resorting to Youtube links and accusations of someone being a closet Madrid fan.

If you were managing a mediocre team in some top-flight European league, and were given the choice of Ronaldo, Xavi, or Iniesta to come and play for you, I don't think anyone in their right mind can honestly take Xavi or Iniesta.

On the other hand, if Pep Guardiola was given a chance to swap Xavi or Iniesta for Ronaldo, I'm sure he would decline.

That's what I mean by complete. Xavi and Iniesta are both great players in Barcelona no doubt, but they aren't the type of players to fit in any team and carry it on their shoulders.

Omniscient wrote:I think this is why most (not all!!!) Barca fans are ridiculed and ganged up on so often. I haven't seen many Barcelona fans who can discuss players/tactics without resorting to Youtube links and accusations of someone being a closet Madrid fan.

Then you have clearly not spent enough time here

Yuri Yukuv wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synergy

Pretty cool concept, if you learn it it can really help you out in life

You dont have to thank me

Excellent. Synergy is one of my favorite words. I have said before that I consider football one of the best examples of synergy.

Omniscient wrote:
A realistic point of view on Xavi, Messi, and Iniesta automatically means that I'm a Madrid fanboy? :bball:

I think this is why most (not all!!!) Barca fans are ridiculed and ganged up on so often. I haven't seen many Barcelona fans who can discuss players/tactics without resorting to Youtube links and accusations of someone being a closet Madrid fan.

If you were managing a mediocre team in some top-flight European league, and were given the choice of Ronaldo, Xavi, or Iniesta to come and play for you, I don't think anyone in their right mind can honestly take Xavi or Iniesta.

On the other hand, if Pep Guardiola was given a chance to swap Xavi or Iniesta for Ronaldo, I'm sure he would decline.

That's what I mean by complete. Xavi and Iniesta are both great players in Barcelona no doubt, but they aren't the type of players to fit in any team and carry it on their shoulders.

Your view is just that - a view. It's not necessarily correct or wrong. It's better to word such comments in a way that it does not seem like you are stating facts.

If you find so many Barcelona fans not worth discussing with then you need not post at the Barcelona forum. If there are a few Barcelona fans who you like then you can discuss with them privately or at other forums. As it stands going by your comments about Barca fans, it seems this forum and you would be better off without each other.

Now as to which player a mediocre coach may pick it's not that straight forward an answer. It all depends on the composition of the team. Firstly you didn't include Messi in your comment. Perhaps you agree that this mediocre coach will choose Messi over C.Ronaldo. If his team is weak in midfield then he will choose Xavi to regulate the passing and get the best out of various individuals in the team. If his team suffers from not having a proper link between the midfield and attack and not having a quality ball carrier, then he will choose Iniesta. If his team has a weak forward line that needs more explosiveness and firepower he will choose C.Ronaldo.

Ah a comment starting with a generalization insulting most (not all) Barca fans and then an argument based on comparing apples with oranges.
What can I say… I’m astounded…

Let me reverse it and say that every coach in his right mind would pick Iniesta over Kaka right now and probably Messi over Ronaldo.

And no, I don’t have any youtube video to support this

Omniscient wrote:

billy_gr wrote:
By the way I am positively sure the guy believes that Christiano and Kaka in his current form are way more complete players than our trio

A realistic point of view on Xavi, Messi, and Iniesta automatically means that I'm a Madrid fanboy? :bball:

I think this is why most (not all!!!) Barca fans are ridiculed and ganged up on so often. I haven't seen many Barcelona fans who can discuss players/tactics without resorting to Youtube links and accusations of someone being a closet Madrid fan.

If you were managing a mediocre team in some top-flight European league, and were given the choice of Ronaldo, Xavi, or Iniesta to come and play for you, I don't think anyone in their right mind can honestly take Xavi or Iniesta.

On the other hand, if Pep Guardiola was given a chance to swap Xavi or Iniesta for Ronaldo, I'm sure he would decline.

That's what I mean by complete. Xavi and Iniesta are both great players in Barcelona no doubt, but they aren't the type of players to fit in any team and carry it on their shoulders.

I prefer people who at least watch youtube videos of the player's they are talking about that people who talk blinded about those same players.

Next time go and watch how Xavi plays, at least on youtube, before saying he is not top giving the final pass.

Omniscient wrote:

larisano wrote:Funny how ONLY possibly the Greatest the club team of All-Time has that dumb paradox attached to it. No other team has that crap attached to it, except probly the Brazil and France NTs of whom people claim Ronaldo and Zizou were Gods and the likes of Dinho,Cafu,RC3,Thuram,Makalele and Vieira etc. were all passengers... But let the haters hate.

It's because Xavi, Iniesta, Messi aren't complete players like Ronaldo, Zidane, Ronaldinho were.

Xavi's accurate low passes wouldn't be as influential in any other team without several other creative players to exchange quick passes with. He's not quite top level at playing the killer pass in the final third.

Iniesta isn't capable of running the midfield by himself without another creative presence alongside him, and I don't think he will ever be. His finishing and goal instinct leaves much to be desired, which would be a problem if he were to play as the only ACM in a team without Messi.

Messi is completely lost playing as the false 9 in a team that doesn't have 2 very creative midfielders like Xavi and Iniesta behind him, and tends to drop deep/become totally useless.

The biggest problem is that all 3 of them are very easy to mark out of the game if playing by themselves. However, when the three play together, it's impossible to keep a tight man-mark on all of them simultaneously. That's the biggest factor.

I'm not taking anything away from the trio, they're all great players, especially when playing together. It's just they're all incomplete players.

Look at Xavi + Iniesta when playing for Spain. Neither of them can consistently create chances, the penetrating killer pass that top midfielders like Zidane, Kaka, Ronaldinho can make is crucial.

Messi can't do anything at all as the false 9 even with Banega, Cambiasso behind him. The only way Messi can play is with other creative players to do a portion of his job for him, or out on the wing cutting in.

They are more complete player than messi? How do you mean? Do you mean that they can play in more position than messi or they can do more than messi? If its the former than ake ronaldo play as a second-striker without a proper midfield and see how complete he is or make zidane do a role that he never does and see how many goal scoring oportunities he makes or how many goals he scored. If its the latter than there isn't that much of a difference, the only thing zidane has over messi is first touch,freekick,long shot, 2 footed, passer and controls a midfielder better while messi is a better dribbler,better finisher,better ball control,faster,better off the ball movement, maybe even balance. Ronaldo was the perfect striker but he was not much more than that, imho ronaldo was a superior cr7, great individual but wasn't that great when it came to team work, ronaldo could take the ball from the middle of the pitch and dribble past 4 player and score just as well as messi, but ronaldo didn't have messi's vision and passing range..

xavi in a season made 30+ assist and the season after had almost 20 assist, zidane never came up close to those kind of number, so how does zidane have a better final third when he has less assist and he plays higher up on the pitch?

Anyone who underrates Xavi only needs to watch the 1st leg match against Arsenal in the 09/10 CL quarter final at the Emirates. On a foreign turf in england, he made the home team look like a bunch of amateurs. Just watch it and keep your eye on Xavi for the first half. The game should have been 4-0 at half time if it wasn't for Ibra's horrendous finishing.

When Xavi is motivated to play (usually against big teams with lots of history) he absolutely bosses the midfield and hardly ever makes a mistake.

I honestly think it doesn't matter which team he plays for. If they play him in a central midfield position, he will make everyone around him better. He will not be as effective in a team like Inter or Chelsea, but that doesn't take anything away from him.

As for Zidane/Kaka/Ronaldinho doing better than Xavi in an objective team - that's all speculation. Those guys are more individual game changers, but that's not always the best way to win trophies and build a solid team. Sound teammwork is better than depending on individuals for brilliant moments. And this is where Xavi shines. You buy Xavi if you want to build a good team for the future. You buy CR7 if you want goals for that 1 season.

lmg, great comments about Xavi. I agree almost completely. Just one point though that Xavi plays with motivation even against small teams. However this season he lacked a little bit of stamina. Therefore he smartly conserved his energy so as to be fully ready for the big teams. Basically Xavi has unbelievable levels of consistency but at the same time he also steps it up even more in a big match.

Agreed. He was definitely pushing his body to the limit this season.

What I've noticed with him is that he always plays extraordinary against teams he respects or hates (Madrid).

In his interviews he praises Arsenal highly. And he performed like a beast against them. In that same interview he said Scholes is his idol (or something to extent) and how he respects Giggs so much. Then look how he played in the final.

I really respect how his level didn't drop after he won the world cup. He's won everything now and he still performs like a hungry youngster. He's always motivated in the big matches, it's great for us barca fans. We have so many big game players that I'm always confident when the big games come.

lmg, very well said. There are four players in our team who have won "everything" but their motivation level has not dropped an iota. That's just one reason why we adore them so much.

They don't decrease motivation because they have a motivated leader: Pep.

Any other captaining this ship, and we would be 1 km under the sea right now.

In Pep I trust.

free_cat wrote:They don't decrease motivation because they have a motivated leader: Pep.

Any other captaining this ship, and we would be 1 km under the sea right now.

In Pep I trust.

Agree to some extent. Pep deserves a lion's share of the credit but I get the feeling that players like Xavi, Iniesta and Puyol to name just three have it intrinsically in their nature to be fully motivated and committed to the cause of the team.

Pedro is the only player that looks better in our system, the rest are that good. Pedro wouldn't make it at other club, he is one trick pony who trives in our system. Last season some users thought that he was world class. He's not, one trick pony, who may be good in the system, but is limited. He can't get pass player to save his life. Good poacher though, and useful guy in our system.

Busquets is world class and is the one of the reasons of our domination. The rest are also this good. Maybe Pique and VV gain from playing in our system but they are very good players. Pedro is the one who benefit the most from Barca system.

Lol, matpol is in a war with Free

Funny how Pedro was able to drible Madrid players several times on wednesday while other players that are so much better than him weren't.