Explain this paradox

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Post by gnrfan Fri Sep 04, 2015 7:35 pm

We've all heard this tripe rolled out in arguments. "Messi can't be considered the greatest player in history unless he wins a world cup." Now any intelligent person can see the holes in this argument. The WC is a knockout tournament that a player has maybe 2-3 shots at in his career( i would say messi has had one real shot since with cokehead playing his 4-1-5 it was no shot at all). Taking form,fitness,luck, teammates and all the other factors that come into play it's crazy to demand that a player has to win a worldcup to be considered GOAT. Perform well with the national team I could understand, but win a knockout tournament in a team sport? The records of guys like Pep. Mou, and Ferguson should show how tricky these knockouts are. With the greatest team of all time Pep managed a 50% record in champions league(and haters will claim those two were undeserved/because of referees). Fergie won two CLs in 25 years both by the skin of his teeth. The GOAT manager llourinho has 2 in 12 or something like that(one when the draw opened up like never before, extreme luck against united). And also keep in mind argentina were never favorites...considered a topheavy team with serious weaknesses, and it's not like he has flopped Hazard style.

Now let's look at the guy these people are trying to big-up. Maradona never won the European Cup in two attempts. Napoli was eliminated by Real Madrid, and then by Napoli. The arguments his apologists use are the same ones they hold over Messi's head. He only had two attempts!! Same as messi and the world cup. He was leading a shit team! Hold on a second...we give Diego so much credit for 'single-handedly' leading a plebian team to the scudetto in an ultra-competitive serie a. Clearly it wasn't a shit team if it finished above legendary Milan, Inter, Sampdoria sides. How does the champion of the world's best league at the time get the benefit of the doubt of going into the CL as some huge underdog? It makes no sense.

Now here's why I think the world cup gets so much credit. It is the one tournament in which all the casuals and people who don't know shit abt football tune in. I can ask any of my uncles or cousins if they follow football, and they'll say "Not regularly. But i watch the wolrd cup matches." And they base their whole opinion about football as a sport on a tournament that happens every four years. That's fine for casuals, but why do so-called 'aficionados' do the same thing? It boggles the mind. Club football makes up 90% of a player's career so shouldn't that be the main basis for comparison? Now i havent seen Maradona week in week out(though I have seen his wc and cl matches). I can't say conclusively if him or Messi was the better player....he might be, but certainly not on the basis of one or two knockout tourneys.
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Post by Bankz Fri Sep 04, 2015 8:37 pm

The thing is that when u talk about the word 'best' and 'greatest', i tend to believe we're talking about totally different things, as one (best) has to do with mostly facts and the other (greatest) has to do with mostly feelings, emotions, methodology and moments.
So to this regard, i easily consider messi the better player going by what he has done and achieved on the pitch both in terms of quantity for exp, 4 cl, 7 leagues, 3 spanish cups 2 cwc etc and quality for exp talent, football attributes, 4 balon d'ors, league and Cl top scorers and those are facts (that u cant dispute) that simply makes messi better especially when in direct comparision to diego.
While, maradona on the other hand is considered greater by me and most people based on the way (methodology) and circumstance (feelings, emmotions) in which he achieved what he did. For instance, the way (again methodology) he won the titles he won with napoli, the against the odd world cup victory in 86(again emmotions).
To be continued..


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Post by rwo power Fri Sep 04, 2015 8:49 pm

Well, maybe that's why people demand the World Cup as credential: It *is* the tournament where practically half the world tune in, so it is viewed as the most important tournament evar. ^^
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Post by Harmonica Fri Sep 04, 2015 9:02 pm

Nothing to explain, team titles are always result of team of players, team edge, tactics and coaching. Messi would have WC and CA if Higuain finished his 1on1 and tap-in. Pele never was the best player of Brazil, yet he has 3 WC's and so on. Teams win team titles, players are just part of that. Statistically players can be compared, but even then you need logical relations.


Last edited by Harmonica on Fri Sep 04, 2015 9:05 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Post by Bankz Fri Sep 04, 2015 9:03 pm

Continued...
His goal of the century (moments), his more spectacular style of play, his leadership qualities, the pedigree given to the world cup (perception), that he left barca to an average/lower level team and won there, that napoli has won nothing since he left all makes he's journey and efforts magical to us all, thus making his achievement more exciting, memorable, and mythical to most of the fans, and it helped that he played for multiple teams making him worshipped/idolized by boca, napoli and barca fans which in the end makes him all the more relatable to the average joe.
So, its more or less a case of unique scenarios put together for maradona thus given us an extreme nostalgic feeling towards him as opposed to messi where its usually more of thesame every year (except that he does them perfectly).
So, in this vein messi is simply the better player (facts prove so) while maradona wins the bells and whistles game which appeals to most people.
So, as a result, i do consider diego the greater


Last edited by Bankz on Fri Sep 04, 2015 9:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Art Morte Fri Sep 04, 2015 9:42 pm

When I saw the title 'explain this paradox' and that the OP was a long one, I thought this was going to be a thread about some complex issue. Instead it was your run of the mill ' Is Messi the greatest of all time?' thread.

I think he is.

Might have as well titled it 'Poll this paradox, yes or no?'
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Post by LeBéninois Fri Sep 04, 2015 9:49 pm

Let's not forget Messi is still playing . I can assure you that in 20 years from now he'll be hailed more than Maradonna.
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Post by zizzle Fri Sep 04, 2015 10:24 pm

When Messi terminates his contract with Barca and moves to Inter and lead this team of scrubs and nevers beens to a CL title it will be the perfect romantic story Messi needs to seal his legacy as the worlds greatest.

Now on a more serious, Messi will never be considered the greatest for the same reason Lebron James will never surpass Jordon. Lebron might win more rings, score more points, and break more records, but he was never the loyal clutch competitive leader that Jordan was, and he isnt likely to retire then come back even better. Jordan's story is the stuff of fairy tails, Lebron is just insanly gifted.
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Post by Bankz Fri Sep 04, 2015 10:49 pm

My point exactly. El diegos story is the stuff of fairytale, which appeals & connects more to peoples emotions and inner soul while messi is just insanely talented with ruthless efficiency albeit far less exciting. Peharps, his is a case of more of thesame. An excellent bore.
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Post by zigra Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:17 am

Bankz wrote:The thing is that when u talk about the word 'best' and 'greatest', i tend to believe we're talking about totally different things, as one (best) has to do with mostly facts and the other (greatest) has to do with mostly feelings, emmotions, methodology and moments.

^this. Something many people seemingly just can't understand. Of course there's a relation but in sport and thus in football too, one great moment can surpass years of consistency.
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Post by Dnmac4 Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:20 am

zizzle wrote:When Messi terminates his contract with Barca and moves to Inter and lead this team of scrubs and nevers beens to a CL title it will be the perfect romantic story Messi needs to seal his legacy as the worlds greatest.

Now on a more serious, Messi will never be considered the greatest for the same reason Lebron James will never surpass Jordon. Lebron might win more rings, score more points, and break more records, but he was never the loyal clutch competitive leader that Jordan was, and he isnt likely to retire then come back even better. Jordan's story is the stuff of fairy tails, Lebron is just insanly gifted.


Hate to get off topic here, but Lebron will never be considered better than Jordan because he's not.

It has nothing to do with nostalgia or different eras or anything like that.

Lebron has fallen flat on his face in the finals a couple times now one time with a superior team against Dallas and got outplayed by Dirk (who's great and all but not all time worthy).

Lebron will never lead the league in scoring 7 times in a row, will never average 37 points a game in a season and will never win 6 rings.

Jordan wasn't a fairy tail story, his career was interrupted by his father being murdered or he would have won 8 championships in a row (totally mind numbing).  He led the league in scoring 10 times and this was at the zenith of the NBA and also at a time where actual physical contact was allowed and he got the shit beat out of him.

Jordan is simply the best non-center to ever play basketball, the best competitor to have ever played sports and an absolute killer on the floor.

I'm from Miami and in-turn a Heat fan and played basketball in college so I have seen both play there whole careers.  Lebron should try and be as good as Kobe before people start comparing him to Jordan.

Sorry to get off topic. As for Messi, I think people forget the guy is 28 and has shown a penchant to play in Midfield and therefor extend his career to about 35 years old at a world class level. The fact that the argument is already going on and he will probably play 7 more years is a joke.

People have no clue how lucky we are to watch him and CR7 and wont realize it until there done playing and we get back to hailing players scoring 30 goals a year as the best in the world a year Ronaldo and Messi would be killed for.
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Post by Donuts Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:20 am

give it 20 years when we see the new kid on the block scoring 40-60 goals a season and our old asses will be like "lol don't even compare that kid to messi"

almost nothing ever seems better in the present compared to the past.
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Post by Hapless_Hans Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:22 am

This Möbius strip is a strange one. The outside is the inside, and vice versa.
Try to wrap your head around that.
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Post by titosantill Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:37 am

agree with dnmac4 on jordan and lebron...maradona vs messi debates makes more sense, at club level, (great teammate/playing for a greater club aside), messi has surpassed him. on an individual level, you can still debate their skillset and technique and all that. it becomes a case of preference in some cases, old school vs new school, and some add the argument who had more help.

jordan and lebron isn't even close. i'm sorry there are still a bunch of greats who aren't centers that i'd take over lebron; bird, magic, kobe (during that gasol/bynum period) to name a few. skill-set; mj takes it, championships; mj. only thing lebron has is "he's a freak of nature"...people get caught up in the present and feel the need to crown their current guy. lebron's king of this era (if durant can get some chips, i might even lean towards durant over him....i might, not for sure)...but the mj comparisons are ridiculous
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Post by zigra Sat Sep 05, 2015 1:08 am

Dnmac4 wrote:
People have no clue how lucky we are to watch him and CR7 and wont realize it until there done playing and we get back to hailing players scoring 30 goals a year as the best in the world a year Ronaldo and Messi would be killed for.


Why?
You probably just overestimate the length of football history. Guys like di Stefano are considered ancient legends and he left Real Madrid only 50 years ago Laughing It never takes long for the next great to arrive and it's hardly new that we have more than one of them at the same time either.
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Post by Dnmac4 Sat Sep 05, 2015 1:37 am

zigra wrote:
Dnmac4 wrote:
People have no clue how lucky we are to watch him and CR7 and wont realize it until there done playing and we get back to hailin
g players scoring 30 goals a year as the best in the world a year Ronaldo and Messi would be killed for.


Why?
You probably just overestimate the length of football history. Guys like di Stefano are considered ancient legends and he left Real Madrid only 50 years ago Laughing It never takes long for the next great to arrive and it's hardly new that we have more than one of them at the same time either.


I don't overestimate anything.

The numbers being put up by Messi and CR7 are really not comparable especially that they do it on a year in year out basis.

The fact that Messi broke the CL scoring record, has 6 more goals than Raul in 43 less games, Ronaldo in 27 less games is a joke.

The fact that the closest to Raul is RVN at 56 goals and Messi and CR7 at 77 is total insanity.

With Messi basically having another 7 years in the competition to pad the stats we have never seen and never will see anything like this again for generations.

Messi broke the goals in a year not by one or two goals but by 6 and that record had stood for 40 years.

Sure you can never say never for this stuff but he is killing records that have stood for generations and he's not ever 30 yet.

The pace he's on has never been seen and then add onto it he will retire with the assists record as well, as he's not just a goal scorer / poacher makes it even more insane.

I say this to my friends all the time, Messi isn't the best footballer on the planet, he is the best player in team sports.  No one has a bigger effect on games than Messi does, and the fact he can grow his all around game while still scoring at an insane rate makes it just unreal.
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Post by breva Sat Sep 05, 2015 1:46 am

LeBéninois wrote:Let's not forget Messi is still playing . I can assure you that in 20 years from now he'll be hailed more than Maradonna.


I doubt it.
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Post by Dnmac4 Sat Sep 05, 2015 1:47 am

titosantill wrote:agree with dnmac4 on jordan and lebron...maradona vs messi debates makes more sense, at club level, (great teammate/playing for a greater club aside), messi has surpassed him. on an individual level, you can still debate their skillset and technique and all that. it becomes a case of preference in some cases, old school vs new school, and some add the argument who had more help.

jordan and lebron isn't even close. i'm sorry there are still a bunch of greats who aren't centers that i'd take over lebron; bird, magic, kobe (during that gasol/bynum period) to name a few. skill-set; mj takes it, championships; mj. only thing lebron has is "he's a freak of nature"...people get caught up in the present and feel the need to crown their current guy. lebron's king of this era (if durant can get some chips, i might even lean towards durant over him....i might, not for sure)...but the mj comparisons are ridiculous


Agreed. Although I think people confuse Lebron's era a little bit.  He's played 12 seasons in the NBA.

Guys like Durant and Westbrook and Steph Curry are more the new generation.  I mean Lebron is 30 years old.

I would take guys who play in Lebron's era over him where no one would ever even think that when it comes to Jordan's era.

I mean Kobe and Duncan IMO are better than Lebron and it's not mismatching era's as they all played in the league together for a decade.

Now that they have cycled out of there prime you can say Lebon's the best player.

But again people often consider Lebron to be younger than he actually is.
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Post by Dnmac4 Sat Sep 05, 2015 2:03 am

breva wrote:
LeBéninois wrote:Let's not forget Messi is still playing . I can assure you that in 20 years from now he'll be hailed more than Maradonna.


I doubt it.


If this isn't the case than the whole argument holds no water.

I mean anyone in 20 years who thinks Maradonna was the better player is basically saying "I don't care about club football".

Which is silly as it's 90% of the games these guys play.

Not to mention I know people are going to hate to hear this as were all supposed to believe that Messi sucks on the international stage and Maradonna was above reproach but Messi is the more efficient goal scorer and has scored way more goals plus he plays completely out of position because the team basically has no midfield.

Plus he's gone to to the World Cup and Copa America finals in a row in a massively flawed team with the strength of the team (Forwards) under performing on a pathetic level.

People seem to only want to hold Messi accountable when he under performs but no one else and they have forgotten that Diego Maradonna didn't score a hat trick every game he played in an Argentina shirt.

In 20 years if people still think Maradonna the better player because he got one game further in a knockout tournament while Messi will hold probably every single scoring and assisting record in club football and having been one of the best players Argentina has ever seen then it is just so short sighted.
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Post by zigra Sat Sep 05, 2015 2:24 am

Of course the numbers are comparable.
I'm not talking about players like Raul FFS. I'm talking about players like Eusebio, Puskas, Müller or Pele himself.
You act like those two are the first to regularly score more than 30 goals a season Laughing
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Post by zizzle Sat Sep 05, 2015 2:33 am

Well this is exactly the point. When you do a pen and pad argument it's very easy to say that Messi is better than Maradona, which might be the case for all i care, but people dont remember consistency, they remember greatness when greatness matters the most.

There is a reason why Zidane is considered an all time great despite the fact that his week in week out output suggests otherwise. However people remember Zidane's volley in the CL final, they remember his two goals in a WC final, and they remember how he carried a below average France team to another final where he also scored. Zidane is considered an all time great because he's a big match player, not because he was consistent.

Dont get me wrong, Messi is that guy for Barcelona, and the first Bayern game last year is one of many examples. That however cant be said about his career with Argentina, and although he has a very good scoring record with the national team, he doesn't have these moments of greatness with them.

Now is international football THAT important for someone's legacy? the sentiment of the masses says yes, even when logically it should not be the measuring stick.
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Post by Kaladin Sat Sep 05, 2015 2:45 am

Bankz wrote:My point exactly. El diegos story is the stuff of fairytale, which appeals & connects more to peoples emotions and inner soul while messi is just insanely talented with ruthless efficiency albeit far less exciting. Peharps, his is a case of more of thesame. An excellent bore.


Ain't no fairytale i remember that had coke in it
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Post by LeBéninois Sat Sep 05, 2015 2:59 am

Dnmac4 wrote:
titosantill wrote:agree with dnmac4 on jordan and lebron...maradona vs messi debates makes more sense, at club level, (great teammate/playing for a greater club aside), messi has surpassed him. on an individual level, you can still debate their skillset and technique and all that. it becomes a case of preference in some cases, old school vs new school, and some add the argument who had more help.

jordan and lebron isn't even close. i'm sorry there are still a bunch of greats who aren't centers that i'd take over lebron; bird, magic, kobe (during that gasol/bynum period) to name a few. skill-set; mj takes it, championships; mj. only thing lebron has is "he's a freak of nature"...people get caught up in the present and feel the need to crown their current guy. lebron's king of this era (if durant can get some chips, i might even lean towards durant over him....i might, not for sure)...but the mj comparisons are ridiculous


Agreed. Although I think people confuse Lebron's era a little bit.  He's played 12 seasons in the NBA.

Guys like Durant and Westbrook and Steph Curry are more the new generation.  I mean Lebron is 30 years old.

I would take guys who play in Lebron's era over him where no one would ever even think that when it comes to Jordan's era.

I mean Kobe and Duncan IMO are better than Lebron and it's not mismatching era's as they all played in the league together for a decade.

Now that they have cycled out of there prime you can say Lebon's the best player.

But again people often consider Lebron to be younger than he actually is.


Tim duncan is 39 lol . Durant , Westbrook and Curry to name a few are only 3-4 years younger than Lebron. You can put Lebron in 2 eras because when Lebron will be 39 the Curry, Durant and co will be 35-36 which makes it closer than Lebron and Kobe/Duncan age difference atm.
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Post by Blue Sat Sep 05, 2015 4:18 am

how likely is it that messi and Ronaldo numbers are inflated due to the concept of super teams? Never in the history of the game you ever saw so many of the best players in the world play on very few teams.

I honestly believe it won't be long before we see others duplicate their goal records.
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Post by LeBéninois Sat Sep 05, 2015 4:27 am

Blue wrote:how likely is it that messi and Ronaldo numbers are inflated due to the concept of super teams? Never in the history of the game you ever saw so many of the best players in the world play on very few teams.

I honestly believe it won't be long before we see others duplicate their goal records.


I don't think so. These 2 are truly freak of nature . It won't be long before we see someone score as much as them but I doubt this person will be as consistent as they are. It's been like what 6-7 years a row now ? For now the Aguero , Lewandoski, Suarez , Benzema of this world can't do that.
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