The Who makes who look better paradox?

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Post by alexjanosik Sun Jul 17, 2011 9:22 am

Frankly I am stumped cules.
So depending on the situation we have fans of other clubs say 'X' player makes 'Y' player look good for Barca.
Sometimes its Iniesta,Messi and the system who make Xavi look good.
A United fan,the same United whom Xavi has so completely dominated in not one but 2 CL finals,thinks Xavi is a joke and its Pep who makes him look good.
Then the same fans would go and say that Iniesta is overrated and its actually Xavi and Messi who make him look good.
And now since its Copa time its Messi's turn to draw the flak.Apparently right now its Xavi and Iniesta who make Messi look good.
Alves to it seems is not all that great.Its the system and the usual suspects who make him look good.

We have also heard how Busquets would struggle outside the system and how the trinity and Barca's system make him look good.
Same with Puyol,Pique and any Barca player.
And last but not least,Pep Guardiola.According to the very same geniuses he is overrated and only made to look good by the SYSTEM and the PLAYERS.

So my fellow cules.I ask the question.What exactly is the truth?Who makes whom look good?

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Post by sagnik92 Sun Jul 17, 2011 9:31 am

they are all individually fantastic players .some of them are legendary but what makes them even bigger is that they can play so well together and understand each other so well.people say barca system is the best they have ever seen .its clearly because the players make the system work and not the system that makes the players great.its the collaborative effort that makes this team one of the greatest of all time .

so i think the players make the system look so good.
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Post by kiranr Sun Jul 17, 2011 9:55 am

Pep Guardiola IS the system!
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Post by billy_gr Sun Jul 17, 2011 11:06 am

Thread title: "Barca's Individual X" vs someone.
Replay: "Barca's Individual Y" makes "Barca's Individual X" look that good.

Thread title: "Barca's Individual Y" vs someone.
Replay: "Barca's Individual X" makes "Barca's Individual Y" look that good.

be it players, coaches, trainers, Camp Nou cleaning ladies etc...
Leave it be, at least some people sleep easier at nights thing this
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Post by Albiceleste Sun Jul 17, 2011 4:20 pm

I think the system in itself plays to everyone's strengths and improves everyone's play

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Post by BarrileteCosmico Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:07 pm

Pep makes them all look good because he managed to create a system in which he can make the most of his squad's skills.
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Post by messixaviesta Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:47 pm

alex, I have read those arguments many times before and they are both humorous and cyclical. Some time back dani had asked so after considering all those arguments who in Barcelona is actually good. Perhaps the answer is all are bad but together they manage to make each other look good making us the ultimate example of team work. Smile

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Post by billionmillion Sun Jul 17, 2011 9:16 pm

Now its messi's time to blame.
Messi was just born in wrong time for Argentina. This team has not defence and goalkeeper, even Uruguay's defence and goalkeeper is better than Argentina. Ton of strikers but not defence and midfield. and people expect messi to do all the job. Imagine Messi in a team with good defence and a decent midfield, then probably there would not be such arguments. In every team first comes defence

Messi can not take the ball dribble everyone and score, its a team game. so of course you need a good team to win titles. now i feel that every team can score against Argentina, i feel that england can score 2-3 goals vs argentina, i think Zaragoza plays better than argentina as a team

Problem is half of Argentina players are technically gifted players who only think about dribbling or making selfish movements. One of main differences between barcelona and argentina. in barcelona team alves dont shoot when he is face to face with goalkeeper, in argentina zabalieta shoots at every chance, tevez forgot about passing, aguero is busy with dribbling, di maria can not live without dribbling, mascerano makes long balls. no passing in this team. this is absolutely not a team.
This team is better than Maradona's team, but Batista can not change their characteristcs, they all love dribbling and making everything by themselves
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Post by billy_gr Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:45 am

yes Alfred but Pep is an average coach who shines because of his players remember???

LOL
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Post by Mr_Puyol Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:39 am


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Post by BarrileteCosmico Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:32 pm

billy_gr wrote:yes Alfred but Pep is an average coach who shines because of his players remember???

LOL
True, besides he's merely adapting Cruyff's work to the 21st century.
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Post by billy_gr Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:57 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:
billy_gr wrote:yes Alfred but Pep is an average coach who shines because of his players remember???

LOL
True, besides he's merely adapting Cruyff's work to the 21st century.

piece of cake...
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Post by James0311 Mon Jul 18, 2011 10:12 pm

Why not post this in the GS ?

Would be interesting to see what they would actually say about this matter.

for me, It is Xavi ( The F***ing System ) who makes everybody look so good. lol
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Mon Jul 18, 2011 10:39 pm

James0311 wrote:Why not post this in the GS ?

Would be interesting to see what they would actually say about this matter.

for me, It is Xavi ( The F***ing System ) who makes everybody look so good. lol
Because I think we all know how that thread is going to end.
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Post by The Franchise Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:21 pm

Maybe, all the players are good and nobody makes anybody look better lol

In all seriously, anyone who plays football at any sort of level can surely know, if a player isnt good, there is nothing another can do.

No player makes Xavi pass the ball at a 95% accuracy, no player can make Messi score over 40 goals a season and be able to dribble 3-4 and more defenders at times, no one can make Pique win so many aerial duels, no one can make Busi read passes and intercept, find a player and play a perfect pass all in 2 moves.

All the players are great, there is no mystery here. All of them combined, you get what you see, a great great team.

I find it amazing when people say player X makes another look good, I mean, anyone who had played football surely knows this is impossible.

Players, organisation, structure, a gameplan, all of it is to bring the best out of each individual to make a collective. But any plan, any structure, the players themselves have to have the ability to do it in the first place.




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Post by harhar11 Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:29 pm

It depends who you are talking about, if you are talking about messi, then its xavi and iniesta and the system or if you are talking about xavi, then its iniesta and messi and the system, or iniesta then its xavi and messi and the system or if its guardiola then its the player who makes him look good...

the truth is, everyone in our team is really frakking good at their job..

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Post by larisano Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:10 am

Funny how ONLY possibly the Greatest the club team of All-Time has that dumb paradox attached to it. No other team has that crap attached to it, except probly the Brazil and France NTs of whom people claim Ronaldo and Zizou were Gods and the likes of Dinho,Cafu,RC3,Thuram,Makalele and Vieira etc. were all passengers... But let the haters hate.
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Post by Omniscient Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:43 am

larisano wrote:Funny how ONLY possibly the Greatest the club team of All-Time has that dumb paradox attached to it. No other team has that crap attached to it, except probly the Brazil and France NTs of whom people claim Ronaldo and Zizou were Gods and the likes of Dinho,Cafu,RC3,Thuram,Makalele and Vieira etc. were all passengers... But let the haters hate.

It's because Xavi, Iniesta, Messi aren't complete players like Ronaldo, Zidane, Ronaldinho were.

Xavi's accurate low passes wouldn't be as influential in any other team without several other creative players to exchange quick passes with. He's not quite top level at playing the killer pass in the final third.

Iniesta isn't capable of running the midfield by himself without another creative presence alongside him, and I don't think he will ever be. His finishing and goal instinct leaves much to be desired, which would be a problem if he were to play as the only ACM in a team without Messi.

Messi is completely lost playing as the false 9 in a team that doesn't have 2 very creative midfielders like Xavi and Iniesta behind him, and tends to drop deep/become totally useless.

The biggest problem is that all 3 of them are very easy to mark out of the game if playing by themselves. However, when the three play together, it's impossible to keep a tight man-mark on all of them simultaneously. That's the biggest factor.

I'm not taking anything away from the trio, they're all great players, especially when playing together. It's just they're all incomplete players.

Look at Xavi + Iniesta when playing for Spain. Neither of them can consistently create chances, the penetrating killer pass that top midfielders like Zidane, Kaka, Ronaldinho can make is crucial.

Messi can't do anything at all as the false 9 even with Banega, Cambiasso behind him. The only way Messi can play is with other creative players to do a portion of his job for him, or out on the wing cutting in.

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Post by Khaled Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:57 am

Omniscient wrote:
larisano wrote:Funny how ONLY possibly the Greatest the club team of All-Time has that dumb paradox attached to it. No other team has that crap attached to it, except probly the Brazil and France NTs of whom people claim Ronaldo and Zizou were Gods and the likes of Dinho,Cafu,RC3,Thuram,Makalele and Vieira etc. were all passengers... But let the haters hate.

It's because Xavi, Iniesta, Messi aren't complete players like Ronaldo, Zidane, Ronaldinho were.

Xavi's accurate low passes wouldn't be as influential in any other team without several other creative players to exchange quick passes with. He's not quite top level at playing the killer pass in the final third.

Iniesta isn't capable of running the midfield by himself without another creative presence alongside him, and I don't think he will ever be. His finishing and goal instinct leaves much to be desired, which would be a problem if he were to play as the only ACM in a team without Messi.

Messi is completely lost playing as the false 9 in a team that doesn't have 2 very creative midfielders like Xavi and Iniesta behind him, and tends to drop deep/become totally useless.

The biggest problem is that all 3 of them are very easy to mark out of the game if playing by themselves. However, when the three play together, it's impossible to keep a tight man-mark on all of them simultaneously. That's the biggest factor.

I'm not taking anything away from the trio, they're all great players, especially when playing together. It's just they're all incomplete players.

Look at Xavi + Iniesta when playing for Spain. Neither of them can consistently create chances, the penetrating killer pass that top midfielders like Zidane, Kaka, Ronaldinho can make is crucial.

Messi can't do anything at all as the false 9 even with Banega, Cambiasso behind him. The only way Messi can play is with other creative players to do a portion of his job for him, or out on the wing cutting in.

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Post by Albiceleste Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:25 am

Omniscient wrote:I see that delusion is rampant amongst plastic Barcelona fans, it's quite a modern phenomenon.
It's not cool for you to come into our section and call people deluded and plastic.

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Post by larisano Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:25 am

Omniscient wrote:
larisano wrote:Funny how ONLY possibly the Greatest the club team of All-Time has that dumb paradox attached to it. No other team has that crap attached to it, except probly the Brazil and France NTs of whom people claim Ronaldo and Zizou were Gods and the likes of Dinho,Cafu,RC3,Thuram,Makalele and Vieira etc. were all passengers... But let the haters hate.

It's because Xavi, Iniesta, Messi aren't complete players like Ronaldo, Zidane, Ronaldinho were.

Xavi's accurate low passes wouldn't be as influential in any other team without several other creative players to exchange quick passes with. He's not quite top level at playing the killer pass in the final third.

Iniesta isn't capable of running the midfield by himself without another creative presence alongside him, and I don't think he will ever be. His finishing and goal instinct leaves much to be desired, which would be a problem if he were to play as the only ACM in a team without Messi.

Messi is completely lost playing as the false 9 in a team that doesn't have 2 very creative midfielders like Xavi and Iniesta behind him, and tends to drop deep/become totally useless.

The biggest problem is that all 3 of them are very easy to mark out of the game if playing by themselves. However, when the three play together, it's impossible to keep a tight man-mark on all of them simultaneously. That's the biggest factor.

I'm not taking anything away from the trio, they're all great players, especially when playing together. It's just they're all incomplete players.

Look at Xavi + Iniesta when playing for Spain. Neither of them can consistently create chances, the penetrating killer pass that top midfielders like Zidane, Kaka, Ronaldinho can make is crucial.

Messi can't do anything at all as the false 9 even with Banega, Cambiasso behind him. The only way Messi can play is with other creative players to do a portion of his job for him, or out on the wing cutting in.

^^ Completely missed my point... What is a complete player,btw?
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Post by messixaviesta Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:30 am

Omniscient wrote:
Xavi's not quite top level at playing the killer pass in the final third.

Has anyone ever heard anyone say this before ???

P.S. - I hope alex reads this very soon and then we will be in for some good fun. Laughing


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Post by Khaled Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:38 am

messixaviesta wrote:
Omniscient wrote:
Xavi's not quite top level at playing the killer pass in the final third.

Has anyone ever heard anyone say this before ???

P.S. - I hope alex reads this very soon and then we will be in for some good fun. Laughing


some stats for u:

@ Omniscient

Xavi created "30" goalscoring chances in WC 2010, Best in Wc 2010!

Note: add to them 693 complete passes ( Xavi was Spain's F**en system, Possession game)!!

Source: Optajoe
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Post by BarcaKizz Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:49 am

messixaviesta wrote:
Omniscient wrote:
Xavi's not quite top level at playing the killer pass in the final third.

Has anyone ever heard anyone say this before ???

P.S. - I hope alex reads this very soon and then we will be in for some good fun. Laughing


Errm.... forget Alex... #1 Xavi fan right here.

Luckily this doesn't really bother me too much. There's a line you cross where what you say no longer has any power because its just so ridiculous/blindly stupid/trolling. This crosses that line.

He actually makes a few interesting points, not sure whether I agree with them but they're quite well thought through.

This one is just kjahdsfkjdhf though.
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Post by billy_gr Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:50 am


Ah, and still Barca is a bunch of decent players who rise to WC levels because of chemistry and Pep’s genius (oh wait Pep's average remember) Smile

That’s football all about…

By the way I am positively sure the guy believes that Christiano and Kaka in his current form are way more complete players than our trio
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