Paris: Charlie Hebdo shooting

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Post by S Sun Jan 11, 2015 9:01 am

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-01-11/arson-attack-on-german-newspaper-that-published-charlie-hebdo/6011338

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Post by Peccadillo Mon Jan 12, 2015 12:00 am

http://www.vox.com/2015/1/10/7524731/french-muslims-attacks-charlie-hebdo
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Post by Katy Perry Mon Jan 12, 2015 12:21 am

https://cut2thetruth.wordpress.com/2015/01/08/paris-terror-exposed/

Is it too paranoid to think it was all a conspiracy?
A false flag, a covert operations designed to deceive in such a way that the operations appear as though they are being carried out by entities, groups, or nations other than those who actually planned and executed them. A pretext to attack muslim terrorists.
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Post by guest_07 Mon Jan 12, 2015 9:05 am

is this the so-called freedom of speech is "pure freedom"

or just the selective one

the one that the western feel is right

can we do the satire joke with our boss based on freedom of speech?

is wise to make satire joke with person that we don't know much, which maybe consist a group of psycho?

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Post by VivaStPauli Mon Jan 12, 2015 3:20 pm

Just because a group is full of psychos doesn't mean they get a free pass.
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Post by guest_07 Mon Jan 12, 2015 11:23 pm

VivaStPauli wrote:Just because a group is full of psychos doesn't mean they get a free pass.


i think is not worth it to die because of freedom of speech

there are many thing that worth it to die because of it like defend the country, defend the person that we love & freedom of speech is not one of them

is stupid to die because of want to make fun on another human

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Post by Mamad Tue Jan 13, 2015 10:58 am

Freedom of speech? more like freedom of insult.
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Post by guest_07 Tue Jan 13, 2015 11:03 am

Mamad wrote:Freedom of speech? more like freedom of insult.


make sense

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Post by S Tue Jan 13, 2015 11:08 am

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/jan/13/charlie-hebdo-cover-magazine-prophet-muhammad

So if there's one thing Charlie Hebdo are gaining out of this and its that they're becoming rich !
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Post by mr-r34 Tue Jan 13, 2015 11:34 am

Is it me or is the new cover trying to make his head look like a dick, same as his eyes and noise.
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Post by Katy Perry Tue Jan 13, 2015 2:48 pm

Yea honestly #jesuisNICHTCharlieHebdo.
If the whole jesuischarlie thing is for solidarity to the victims and their family then ok, but I'm not on the Charlie Hebdo freedom of speech, or better of insult, of something that milions of people believe in and whoever believes in that for absolutely no reason, there should be some boundaries. I'm not saying that what happened was right, it was not, because you can't get those boundaries with violence and terror but do it with other ways, but if all Charlie Hebdo was about is absolutely unmotivated obloquies and diffamation to other people's beliefs (not necessarily Islam) and all the people who believe in them, then sorry but I'm not Charlie Hebdo.

I wonder if an islamic artist made a drawing with himself urinating on the 4 dead drawers and saying "What's up? You ran out of ink?" anyone would "take it as a joke" or "make satire about it".
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Post by sportsczy Tue Jan 13, 2015 4:31 pm

whatever they'd do... it would be within the confines of the law. You wouldn't have a bunch of satirists from Charlie Hebdo storming the offices of the Islamic artist with machine guns and killing everyone... that's the difference between civilization and wild chimpanzees.

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Post by Dante Tue Jan 13, 2015 4:58 pm

guest_07 wrote:
VivaStPauli wrote:Just because a group is full of psychos doesn't mean they get a free pass.


i think is not worth it to die because of freedom of speech

there are many thing that worth it to die because of it like defend the country, defend the person that we love & freedom of speech is not one of them

is stupid to die because of want to make fun on another human


Not worth it hey.. So what happens when one's country right in freedom of speech is non negotiable?? Going by your words , there's a conflict here.. What happens when the person one loves , thinks it worthy to be willing to even sacrifice their life for freedom of speech?? Again there's a conflict here.. you say freedom of speech is not worth to die for and you say what's worth , well then , would you find it worthy to die for a beloved one and said country who valued freedom of speech above their existance?? If it were your people and your country? Going by your words , you wouldn't . Your entire point is stupid , not the reason people were fearless to speak their minds in a certain way in their own country , only to be murdered by the worst scum of the earth.

Stupid? I have no decent words to answer you . Only decent thing i can say is , read up on history and read up on satire . That wasn't meaningless making fun like you joke with your friend , let alone just for the sake of making fun ; it wasn't 'just a joke' , or 'meant to insult as it's only goal' ; it was SATIRE . Satire understands no thing sacred nor holy , has no boundaries nor restrictions , understands no feelings , holds no remorse , stops at neither gods nor kings , saints or prophets .

You don't like that?? Nobody cares. Go live or stay where none of it is allowed . Describing as stupid something countless people have suffered and lost their lives for , so at least others can be free , in body and mind , is unacceptable. Freedom and democracy have their price. Anyone who's not willing to agree to that price should go live elsewhere more to their liking . In Europe democracy and freedom in all its forms are above any religion , which means , freedom of speech and satire are also above religions too. If anyone feels offended , either look away , or for those who live there and cannot stand it any long , go live elsewhere . Nobody will stop you , that much is certain .

Just because you don't agree or cannot understand freedom of speech , it doesn't make it stupid ; it's a disgrace to the people who died to say that's a stupid reason to go . Absolute disgrace . I only wish my death would mean so much to the sane of human kind , what you describe as stupid is for me one of the greatest ideals . We all going to die eventually , fk yes i would like my death to be in the name of freedom . Sadly and that's the point here , they should be alive in the first place , nobody should die for freedom anymore. The ones who did were more than enough . Let alone if they died for a 'stupid' reason .

The times where people had to die for their right in freedom are long gone , at least should be .. Europe doesn't want to be Middle East ; nor go back to Middle Ages , thank you but it took countless deaths to move on and become what Europe is today. If people in the past thought it stupid to die for freedom and everything that goes with it , guess what , we would still be in the Middle Ages . It goes even further back tbh , if the Greeks surrendered to Persia back then saying it's stupid to die in the name of freedom and got their civilization destroyed some centuries earlier before Christianity brought it down , who the fk knows how the world would be today ?? If Europe and the West didn't have at least that foundation to begin anew and improve and evolve and progress from there ? The only thing stupid is your entire point and your entire post , there's 0% stupid in freedom of speech , or satire . Ideals and rights that stem from democracy and freedom .

You can't have it seperately . You either have freedom of speech and satire , or you're not free and your democracy doesn't work/you don't even have democracy . The French and almost all of Europe clearly know what they want , anybody that doesn't approve look away , nobody cares what you have against that .
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Post by guest_07 Tue Jan 13, 2015 5:04 pm

sportsczy wrote:whatever they'd do... it would be within the confines of the law. You wouldn't have a bunch of satirists from Charlie Hebdo storming the offices of the Islamic artist with machine guns and killing everyone... that's the difference between civilization and wild chimpanzees.



is this the so called "civilization" society can live in peace without insult or provoke other society?

or they have some kind of mental disease that can't see others without doing insulting or provocation?

i'm curious to know the type of this so called "civilization" society

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Post by sportsczy Tue Jan 13, 2015 5:25 pm

civilized society value debate, appreciate self-deprecating humor (some of the employees at Charlie Hebdo are muslim)...  and never take the law into their own hands via violence like a chimpanzee.  

You know a great example of a civilized person?  Martin Luther King.  He and his race faced exponentially more insults and faced injustice daily... but guess what he said:

"Man must evolve for all human conflict a method which rejects revenge, aggression and retaliation. The foundation of such a method is love."

Did he protest what he felt was unjust?  Of course he did and rightfully so.  But he did it peacefully.  

If people feel that this satire is so outrageous, organize a peaceful protest.  There are other ways to express your issues than violence on innocent people.

That's civilization.
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Post by guest_07 Tue Jan 13, 2015 6:02 pm

sportsczy wrote:civilized society value debate, appreciate self-deprecating humor (some of the employees at Charlie Hebdo are muslim)...  and never take the law into their own hands via violence like a chimpanzee.  

You know a great example of a civilized person?  Martin Luther King.  He and his race faced exponentially more insults and faced injustice daily... but guess what he said:

"Man must evolve for all human conflict a method which rejects revenge, aggression and retaliation. The foundation of such a method is love."

Did he protest what he felt was unjust?  Of course he did and rightfully so.  But he did it peacefully.  

If people feel that this satire is so outrageous, organize a peaceful protest.  There are other ways to express your issues than violence on innocent people.

That's civilization.


i have another solution

don't insult or provoke others

i'm sure there are 1001 ways of expressing freedom of speech without insult or provoke others

why choose the way no.1002 that can cause your death, that is what i call stupid

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Post by Pedram Tue Jan 13, 2015 6:11 pm

I have a question, does freedom of speech also gives you the privilege to insult people of other races/religions ?
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Post by guest_07 Tue Jan 13, 2015 6:27 pm

Pedram wrote:I have a question, does freedom of speech also gives you the privilege to insult people of other races/religions ?


based on what the westerner did it, yes, insulting races/religions is part of their freedom of speech, is privilege to them, what an unhealthy lifestyle

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Post by sportsczy Tue Jan 13, 2015 6:47 pm

VivaStPauli wrote:Yeah, because frankly, in Europe, yes there's some limits to free speech.
I'll take sportsczy as an example because he'll understand what I'm getting it:

I cannot, in France, publicly say "sportscy is a huge asshole", because that's just an insult helping nobody. I can however point out his similarities to an asshole, and say "like an asshole, sportsczy has at least one hole and two cheeks. Also, he is more than ten inches tall, which, for assholes, would make him huge."
At which point you are free to refute what I said by pointing out that it doesn't make any sense, but I clearly didn't slander him in any way.

Just like I can't go on TV in Germany and say "all muslims/christians/jews/French/Swedes are assholes", I can however, go on TV in Germany and say "many muslims/christians/jews/French/Swedes exhibited some asshole-like behavior, and here is my evidence [...]"
Free speech means you get to express your opinion. It doesn't mean you get to express your opinion in any way you like. Just like it doesn't protect outright lies. Just like you can't yell "fire!" in a crowded theatre, you can't incite racial hatred in most European countries.
See above.

And if you don't like what France stands for... fine. You don't need to come here or, if you're here, GTFO. I don't care either way. But under no circumstance will i, a citizen of France, allow you or anyone else to undermine the laws, culture and values of the country. If you attack them on our land, then you can expect dire consequences.

I don't judge other cultures and never have personally because i'm in no position to. As long as the basic human rights and international laws are followed, each country can choose its own path. You have absolutely no right to judge mine, let alone ask for violence to be done in my country.


Last edited by sportsczy on Tue Jan 13, 2015 6:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Dante Tue Jan 13, 2015 6:48 pm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/netherlands/11342282/Rotterdams-mayor-tells-Muslims-to-pack-their-bags-and-go-if-they-dont-like-freedom.html

By Telegraph reporter3:51PM GMT 13 Jan 2015

Ahmed Aboutaleb, a Labour politician and former government minister, issued his uncompromising message on the day that Islamist terrorists attacked the French satirical magazine because it published cartoons mocking Islam.
“It is incomprehensible that you can turn against freedom. But if you do not like freedom, in Heaven’s name pack your bag and leave,” he said.
“There may be a place in the world where you can be yourself,” he continued. “Be honest with yourself and do not go and kill innocent journalists. And if you do not like it here because humorists you do not like make a newspaper, may I then say you can ---- off.”
Mr Aboutaleb, who became the Dutch city’s mayor in 2008, has repeatedly hit the headlines for his outspoken views on the integration of immigrants, including praise from Boris Johnson.
“[His] is the voice of the Enlightenment, of Voltaire. We can and will protect this country against these jihadist thugs,” wrote London’s mayor in Monday’s Telegraph.

“But if we are going to win the struggle for the minds of these young people, then that is the kind of voice we need to hear – and it needs above all to be a Muslim voice.”
A “secular Muslim”, Mr Aboutaleb grew up the son of an imam in northern Morocco, but moved to the Netherlands aged 15 in 1976.
He has been criticised by Geert Wilders, the popular Dutch anti-immigrant leader, for holding public office while possessing dual Dutch and Moroccan passports.

He's right. Perhaps someone lives in one of these countries and don't want to leave , so maybe you feel like protesting in peace?? Debating freedom in any of its forms isn't something europeans will take seriously , let alone concede , doesn't matter in what you believe in , or what offends you.

Even the right to protest in peace is granted to people in the name of freedom of speech among other rights in a democracy. I mean it's ironicaly hilarious even if people want to protest for such a reason .  


" Dear offended Muslim citizens of France , let us openly and freely exercise our right in freedom of speech in order to unashamedly speak against freedom of speech , because we're offended by the right of certain people to openly and freely exercise freedom of speech by drawing satirical cartoons that happen to offend us. Let us use freedom of speech to stop their right in freedom of speech . Let the offended use freedom of speech against freedom of speech. That makes total sense gentlemen , we will protest in peace under the banner of freedom of speech which is freely granted to us , to protest against it through its exercise , to restrict its reach . Here's to our totally noble and reasonable cause , peace sibling "

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Post by sportsczy Tue Jan 13, 2015 7:20 pm

The expected cover of tomorrow's edition:

Spoiler:


Last edited by sportsczy on Tue Jan 13, 2015 11:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by LeBéninois Tue Jan 13, 2015 7:56 pm

sportsczy wrote:See above.

And if you don't like what France stands for... fine.  You don't need to come here or, if you're here, GTFO.  I don't care either way.  But under no circumstance will i, a citizen of France, allow you or anyone else to undermine the laws, culture and values of the country.  If you attack them on our land, then you can expect dire consequences.

I don't judge other cultures and never have personally because i'm in no position to.    As long as the basic human rights and international laws are followed, each country can choose its own path.  You have absolutely no right to judge mine, let alone ask for violence to be done in my country.
Spot on. I don't agree with many countries' ideas/laws therefore I don't even think about living there. People would live in western countries with the freedom and others advantages and instead of trying to make the society better they are acting like the biggest hypocrits ever. why don't they leave and go back live with their '' brothers '' of Isis, Boko Haram and others rather than killing people.
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Post by RealGunner Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:18 pm

sportsczy wrote:The expected cover of tomorrow's edition:

Spoiler:


That makes sense. Will certainly help resolve the tension in France too.
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Post by RealGunner Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:20 pm

Pedram wrote:I have a question, does freedom of speech also gives you the privilege to insult people of other races/religions ?


As long as it doesn't come within the hate speech category, yea it does give you the privilege.

Hence, there is no such thing as freedom of speech. It's something what people wish they had.

On a related note. The french march was one of the biggest farce related to the incident. Surprised they didn't invite Putin in it too.

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Post by RedOranje Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:45 pm

Freedom of Speech does not JUST apply to speech that you find pleasant or comfortable.
RealGunner wrote:
Pedram wrote:I have a question, does freedom of speech also gives you the privilege to insult people of other races/religions ?


As long as it doesn't come within the hate speech category, yea it does give you the privilege.

Hence, there is no such thing as freedom of speech. It's something what people wish they had.

On a related note. The french march was one of the biggest farce related to the incident. Surprised they didn't invite Putin in it too.



There very much is such a thing as free speech. The ideal concept cannot be enforced in reality simply because an ideal is an abstract concept to work toward, but free speech as a political and social right absolutely is implemented to varying degrees throughout much of the world.
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Post by Onyx Tue Jan 13, 2015 10:08 pm

I don't care what the rules or laws are, you shouldn't be allowed to insult any religion. Constructive criticism is fine, but mocking, seriously? Why provoke in the first place? Just live peacefully.

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