Paris: Charlie Hebdo shooting

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Post by Peccadillo Mon Jan 19, 2015 2:51 am

sportsczy wrote:WILL “moderate Muslims” finally “speak up” against their militant coreligionists? People around the world have asked (but, as in the past, have not all seriously examined) this question since last week’s horrific attacks on the French satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo and on a kosher supermarket in Paris.

In fact, Muslim statesmen, clerics and intellectuals have added their voices to condemnations of terror by leaders around the world. But they must undertake another essential task: Address and reinterpret Islam’s traditional take on “blasphemy,” or insult to the sacred.

The Paris terrorists were apparently fueled by the zeal to punish blasphemy, and fervor for the same cause has bred militancy in the name of Islam in various other incidents, ranging from Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini’s fatwa against the writer Salman Rushdie in 1989 to the threats and protests against the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten for publishing cartoons lampooning the Prophet Muhammad in 2005.

Mockery of Muhammad, actual or perceived, has been at the heart of nearly all of these controversies over blasphemy.

This might seem unremarkable at first, but there is something curious about it, for the Prophet Muhammad is not the only sacred figure in Islam. The Quran praises other prophets — such as Abraham, Moses and Jesus — and even tells Muslims to “make no distinction” between these messengers of God. Yet for some reason, Islamist extremists seem to obsess only about the Prophet Muhammad.

Even more curiously, mockery of God — what one would expect to see as the most outrageous blasphemy — seems to have escaped their attention as well. Satirical magazines such as Charlie Hebdo have run cartoons ridiculing God (in the Jewish, Christian and Muslim contexts), but they were targeted with violence only when they ridiculed the Prophet Muhammad.

Of course, this is not to say extremists should threaten and harm cartoonists for more diverse theological reasons; obviously, they should not target them at all. But the exclusive focus on the Prophet Muhammad is worth pondering. One obvious explanation is that while God and the other prophets are also sacred for Judaism and Christianity, the Prophet Muhammad is sacred only for Muslims. In other words, the zeal comes not from merely respect for the sacred, but from militancy for what’s sacred to us — us being the community of Muslims. So the unique sensitivity around Muhammad seems to be a case of religious nationalism, with its focus on the earthly community — rather than of true faith, whose main focus should be the divine.

Still, this religious nationalism is guided by religious law — Shariah — that includes clauses about punishing blasphemy as a deadly sin. It is thus of vital importance that Muslim scholars courageously, even audaciously, address this issue today. They can begin by acknowledging that, while Shariah is rooted in the divine, the overwhelming majority of its injunctions are man-made, partly reflecting the values and needs of the seventh to 12th centuries — when no part of the world was liberal, and other religions, such as Christianity, also considered blasphemy a capital crime.

The only source in Islamic law that all Muslims accept indisputably is the Quran. And, conspicuously, the Quran decrees no earthly punishment for blasphemy — or for apostasy (abandonment or renunciation of the faith), a related concept. Nor, for that matter, does the Quran command stoning, female circumcision or a ban on fine arts. All these doctrinal innovations, as it were, were brought into the literature of Islam as medieval scholars interpreted it, according to the norms of their time and milieu.

Tellingly, severe punishments for blasphemy and apostasy appeared when increasingly despotic Muslim empires needed to find a religious justification to eliminate political opponents.

One of the earliest “blasphemers” in Islam was the pious scholar Ghaylan al-Dimashqi, who was executed in the 8th century by the Umayyad Empire. His main “heresy” was to insist that rulers did not have the right to regard their power as “a gift of God,” and that they had to be aware of their responsibility to the people.

Before all that politically motivated expansion and toughening of Shariah, though, the Quran told early Muslims, who routinely faced the mockery of their faith by pagans: “God has told you in the Book that when you hear God’s revelations disbelieved in and mocked at, do not sit with them until they enter into some other discourse; surely then you would be like them.”

Just “do not sit with them” — that is the response the Quran suggests for mockery. Not violence. Not even censorship.

Wise Muslim religious leaders from the entire world would do Islam a great favor if they preached and reiterated such a nonviolent and nonoppressive stance in the face of insults against Islam. That sort of instruction could also help their more intolerant coreligionists understand that rage is a sign of nothing but immaturity. The power of any faith comes not from its coercion of critics and dissenters. It comes from the moral integrity and the intellectual strength of its believers.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/14/opinion/islams-problem-with-blasphemy.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=c-column-top-span-region®ion=c-column-top-span-region&WT.nav=c-column-top-span-region

BTW sports.. great post and agree with everything you have said.

One of the quintessential facets of Islam is its monotheism. I have spoken to pretty hard-lined muslims before, who mock Christianity for the contradictory belief in the holy trinity in a  monotheistic religion, yet in the same breath treat the prophet to a similar standard - not to mention trust far too much in iron age peasants accurately documenting his life.

Those who stress the importance of following the "sunah" - do as Muhammad (allegedly) did - seem to throw all common sense out the window. Its impossible to distinguish what was true and also even what Muhammad did in the name of God and what he did purely due to his own idiosyncrasies... Such as something as small like having a beard.

I re-iterate that the biggest internal debate that needs to occur in Islam is to re-evaluate the Hadith. It is man-written, is entirely relative and therefore should be subject to scrutiny.

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Post by Winter is Coming Mon Jan 19, 2015 4:13 am

Peccadillo wrote:I re-iterate that the biggest internal debate that needs to occur in Islam is to re-evaluate the Hadith. It is man-written, is entirely relative and therefore should be subject to scrutiny.

I have responded to your post regrading this not sure if you read it, but I'll post it again

Prophet Muhammad himself warned,

"Whenever a Hadith is presented to you in my name, verify it with the Qur'an. If it agrees with the Qur'an, accept it, and if it is in conflict, discard it." [1]

"There is no doubt that, there will be Hadith coming after me, claiming that I have said things. So you must test those Hadith from the Qur'an. If it is really according to the Qur'an only then accept it, otherwise reject it." [2]

Likewise, Salama relates,

""I heard the Prophet saying, "Whoever (intentionally) ascribes to me what I have not said then (surely) let him occupy his seat in Hell-fire."" [3]

So any hadith that goes against the Qu'ran should be discarded.
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Post by Winter is Coming Mon Jan 19, 2015 4:24 am

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/moroccan-man-in-france-killed-at-home-in-front-of-wife-by-intruder-shouting-about-islam-9985072.html
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Post by Peccadillo Mon Jan 19, 2015 4:33 am

but there are a number of examples from "authentic" hadith that already do conflict with the Qur'an.. as I thought I established in my earlier post that you responded to.

This is my point.. I'll give you another example..

Qur'an states: Make ye no excuses: ye have rejected Faith after ye had accepted it. If We pardon some of you, We will punish others amongst you, for that they are in sin.

Again, punishment for some in afterlife, not in this life.

However, Authentic Hadith states: Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.'

This is from al-Bukhari, sahih (authentic hadith).. so clearly these "authentic hadith" that have apparently been studied by scholars and the distinctions between fact and fiction drawn has failed miserably.

I have a million of these examples, where the Qur'an either does not say anything at all that supports what the hadith states OR is actually contradictory to it. Again, I am only talking about authentic hadith here.

If you yourself do discard certain hadith because you believe they conflict with the Qur'an, that's good for you and well done for doing so. But the fact remains that mainstream sunnis place far too much emphasis on Hadith and fail to have an internal debate to scrutinise the work of scholars - are these scholars infallible? Is the chain of chinese whispers amongst illiterate iron-age peasants infallible?

Anyway I don't really want to turn this into a massive theological discussion, but in my opinion if we talk about the need for Islam to have internal discourse about how to tackle religious extremism. But anyone who does this runs the risk of being called an apostate, many have tried to have these discussions but all have failed and are snubbed off by mainstream Islam. This is where it needs to start for any hope of breaking down dogmatism in Islam, in my opinion.
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Post by Winter is Coming Mon Jan 19, 2015 5:28 am

Peccadillo wrote:but there are a number of examples from "authentic" hadith that already do conflict with the Qur'an.. as I thought I established in my earlier post that you responded to.

This is my point.. I'll give you another example..

Qur'an states: Make ye no excuses: ye have rejected Faith after ye had accepted it. If We pardon some of you, We will punish others amongst you, for that they are in sin.

Again, punishment for some in afterlife, not in this life.

However, Authentic Hadith states: Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.'

This is from al-Bukhari, sahih (authentic hadith).. so clearly these "authentic hadith" that have apparently been studied by scholars and the distinctions between fact and fiction drawn has failed miserably.

I have a million of these examples, where the Qur'an either does not say anything at all that supports what the hadith states OR is actually contradictory to it. Again, I am only talking about authentic hadith here.

If you yourself do discard certain hadith because you believe they conflict with the Qur'an, that's good for you and well done for doing so. But the fact remains that mainstream sunnis place far too much emphasis on Hadith and fail to have an internal debate.

Anyway I don't really want to turn this into a massive theological discussion, but in my opinion if we talk about the need for Islam to have internal discourse about how to tackle religious extremism. This is where it needs to start, in my opinion.

I think its a bit unclear and brings a lot of confusion, because it seems someone else is narrating Ibn 'Abbas' reference to something the Prophet said in the past tense in a rather unclear situation.

I also spoke to many scholars about this and I recall my friend also bought it up a few days ago when we were speaking about hadiths that at times you have to remember what circumstance that event in the hadith was written in, for example it could be during the time of war, when someone deserts the religion and joined the enemy what did he take with him? Intel, most importantly forgot about leaving the religion, what was he going to commit? Treason.

This is how the prophet death with apostasy,

A bedouin gave the Pledge of allegiance to Allah's Apostle for Islam. Then the bedouin got fever at Medina, came to Allah's Apostle and said, "O Allah's Apostle! Cancel my Pledge," But Allah's Apostle refused. Then he came to him (again) and said, "O Allah's Apostle! Cancel my Pledge." But the Prophet refused Then he came to him (again) and said, "O Allah's Apostle! Cancel my Pledge." But the Prophet refused. The bedouin finally went out (of Medina) whereupon Allah's Apostle said, "Medina is like a pair of bellows (furnace): It expels its impurities and brightens and clears its good. [Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 9, #318]
Notably, as Dr. M. E. Subhani explained in his book:

This is a scholar take on the above,

This was an open case of apostasy. But the Prophet neither punished the Bedouin nor asked anyone to do it. He allowed him to leave Madina (of his own will). Nobody harmed him.” [Apostasy in Islam (New Delhi, India: Global Media Publications, 2005), pp. 23-24.]

As you can see I've never heard about the prophet ever committing such an act (killing those who left the religion), that hadith is referencing something supposedly the prophet said, but it didn't exactly come out of his mouth, especially when you look at how the prophet allowed that one guy to leave without any harm.

I agree with you on your points don't get me wrong, but i believe its more us muslims who are at fault rather then hadith, we are always told to approach those knowledgable about this and not to act on things we are unsure of, but unfortunately a low of people don't they read something and they automatically assume its true or this si what it wants us to do, sort like the media, or those hidden sublime messages.
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Post by Peccadillo Mon Jan 19, 2015 6:06 am

Winter is Coming wrote:
I think its a bit unclear and brings a lot of confusion, because it seems someone else is narrating Ibn 'Abbas' reference to something the Prophet said in the past tense in a rather unclear situation.

I also spoke to many scholars about this and I recall my friend also bought it up a few days ago when we were speaking about hadiths that at times you have to remember what circumstance that event in the hadith was written in, for example it could be during the time of war, when someone deserts the religion and joined the enemy what did he take with him? Intel, most importantly forgot about leaving the religion, what was he going to commit? Treason.

This is how the prophet death with apostasy,

A bedouin gave the Pledge of allegiance to Allah's Apostle for Islam. Then the bedouin got fever at Medina, came to Allah's Apostle and said, "O Allah's Apostle! Cancel my Pledge," But Allah's Apostle refused. Then he came to him (again) and said, "O Allah's Apostle! Cancel my Pledge." But the Prophet refused Then he came to him (again) and said, "O Allah's Apostle! Cancel my Pledge." But the Prophet refused. The bedouin finally went out (of Medina) whereupon Allah's Apostle said, "Medina is like a pair of bellows (furnace): It expels its impurities and brightens and clears its good. [Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 9, #318]
Notably, as Dr. M. E. Subhani explained in his book:

This is a scholar take on the above,

This was an open case of apostasy. But the Prophet neither punished the Bedouin nor asked anyone to do it. He allowed him to leave Madina (of his own will). Nobody harmed him.” [Apostasy in Islam (New Delhi, India: Global Media Publications, 2005), pp. 23-24.]

As you can see I've never heard about the prophet ever committing such an act (killing those who left the religion), that hadith is referencing something supposedly the prophet said, but it didn't exactly come out of his mouth, especially when you look at how the prophet allowed that one guy to leave without any harm.

I agree with you on your points don't get me wrong, but i believe its more us muslims who are at fault rather then hadith, we are always told to approach those knowledgable about this and not to act on things we are unsure of, but unfortunately a low of people don't they read something and they automatically assume its true or this si what it wants us to do, sort like the media, or those hidden sublime messages.


But you seem to be accepting in the first two paragraphs that the text is subject to cultural relativism, whereas in other areas it seems cultural relativism need not apply, like with earning or paying interest for example.

It seems like its all when it suits. Surely if you accept one hadith is culturally relevant.. you accept that they are ALL culturally relevant? Therefore all up for both discussion and scrutiny.

I think the problem is that many do seek that clarification from people who are supposed to be more knowledgeable..  but the perception of who is knowledgeable are backyard Imams and Youtube sheikhs, its really open for anyone.

Maybe Islam, institutionally speaking, should become more centralised - why not? Education should certainly be secular, with religious studies only extra-curricular (or at least on the fringes of curricular - ie one religious studies class a week). The problem is that the majority of those within any theological authority have nothing more than mickey mouse degrees. In local community contexts most Sheikhs seem to have does not go beyond doing a 5 year stint on strictly Islamic studies only, in Egypt or some such place.

Then you have a multitude of genuine scholars who specialise in a range of fields from philosophy to sciences who have some genuinely progressive ideas, but are silenced and labelled as "moderates" (which comes with a lot of negative connotation) or even apostates for refusing to view Islam through their same dogmatic lens.

The current system is no good and leaves everything open for the indoctrination of Muslims to highly extreme ideologies, such all these nuts going to join IS, and these gunman that murdered CH employees. It's a dangerously unregulated system, when you have scripture, which you are told to follow as a manual to your faith, that says the prophet said to kill someone for leaving Islam (under ANY context) - that is surely an area of study which requires IMMENSE regulation.
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Post by rwo power Mon Jan 19, 2015 6:48 am

Sounds like Islam needs their own Martin Luther - a scholar to thoroughly reform the religion and even risk a schism for the greater good.
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Post by Winter is Coming Mon Jan 19, 2015 6:52 am

Again true, however as I said in the first hadith the one we are speaking about from what I see someone is saying that some said the prophet said this...Its like me saying that someone told me that Peccadillo said this...Especially considering the hadith after that we are seeing the prophet allowing someone to leave the religion without taking his life. And as I said if the hadith doesn't follow the Qu'ran it should be discarded.

At the end I'm not as knowledgable, from what I've said I've either talk to someone who knows more then me or looked around online to pull some of the information.

I believe the problem with Islam generally is culture. It takes a far too much toll on the religion itself, honour killing, women not being allowed to drive/education, etc are all culture things and the thing is there will be some imam/scholars who will also be cultural on this matter.

In some colleges/university there are those classes present and I've heard from some of my friends they are quite interesting and knowledgable.

The younger muslims today running out to join ISIS, are like those kids who grow up wanting to join gangs, mafia, triads etc, Its a phase were they think its cool, gives them power, honour etc.
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Post by Winter is Coming Mon Jan 19, 2015 6:58 am

rwo power wrote:Sounds like Islam needs their own Martin Luther - a scholar to thoroughly reform the religion and even risk a schism for the greater good.


It actually is written in the Qu'ran there will be someone who will come one day, to reunite the Muslims, but no one knows when and some people have falsely claimed to be him in the past.

The prophet himself said, "He will be sent at a time of intense disputes and differences among people and earthquakes..."
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Post by rwo power Mon Jan 19, 2015 7:03 am

That sounds highly intriguing and actually pretty fitting for the current time even.

Dunno how much you know about the Reformation, but it appears to me that something similar might not be the worst idea to tidy up Islam from the extreme flavours - even when it at first lead to major unrest, too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Reformation
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Post by Winter is Coming Mon Jan 19, 2015 7:10 am

rwo power wrote:That sounds highly intriguing and actually pretty fitting for the  current time even.

Dunno how much you know about the Reformation, but it appears to me that something similar might not be the worst idea to tidy up Islam from the extreme flavours - even when it at first lead to major unrest, too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Reformation

It'll definitely tidy it up, but it'll be pretty extreme at the time.

I've heard about it only tbh, but I'll definitely have to read more into it.
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Post by rwo power Mon Jan 19, 2015 7:18 am

Well, the reformation is the reason why Christianity isn't identical with Catholicism anymore and why there are bazillions of flavours of Christian churches/sects, about half of them not even acknowleding the Pope as authority (the Pope is only the big boss of the Catholics).

The reformation forced people to look at the practise of their belief and the structure of the church. The ones who didn't want to go along with the more extreme ways of the Catholics flocked to the several Protestant flavours.

The downside was that there were almost two hundred years of disputes, unrest, sometimes even wars (after all Church and power politics went along nicely in the past until more and more States adopted the separation of Church and State). It was for sure a painful process, but it was necessary.

And looking at the different flavours of Islam, it seems that it is necessary to set up something that is more fitting with modern times and can still be accepted. The extrely strict groups will likely continue to exist for a long time, but there need to be more proper alternatives that propagate the Islam more true to the original scripture.
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Post by sportsczy Mon Jan 19, 2015 7:31 am

Edit: Senior moment.


Last edited by sportsczy on Mon Jan 19, 2015 3:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by RealGunner Mon Jan 19, 2015 3:33 pm

Think you posted it and the linked the article. It has quotes in it lol, ofcourse you wouldn't write that.
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Post by RealGunner Mon Jan 19, 2015 3:42 pm

Winter is Coming wrote:
Peccadillo wrote:I re-iterate that the biggest internal debate that needs to occur in Islam is to re-evaluate the Hadith. It is man-written, is entirely relative and therefore should be subject to scrutiny.

I have responded to your post regrading this not sure if you read it, but I'll post it again

Prophet Muhammad himself warned,

"Whenever a Hadith is presented to you in my name, verify it with the Qur'an. If it agrees with the Qur'an, accept it, and if it is in conflict, discard it." [1]

"There is no doubt that, there will be Hadith coming after me, claiming that I have said things. So you must test those Hadith from the Qur'an. If it is really according to the Qur'an only then accept it, otherwise reject it." [2]

Likewise, Salama relates,

""I heard the Prophet saying, "Whoever (intentionally) ascribes to me what I have not said then (surely) let him occupy his seat in Hell-fire."" [3]

So any hadith that goes against the Qu'ran should be discarded.


Do you really trust hear-say?

If you really compare Hadiths with Quran, 80% of them will be fallacious. They are recorded by people who either have no records of ever existing or collected by people born 100+ years after Prophet Muhammad died(Muhammad al-Bukhari, the pioneer of Sahih Bukhari).

rwo power wrote:Sounds like Islam needs their own Martin Luther - a scholar to thoroughly reform the religion and even risk a schism for the greater good.


More chance of Israel giving Palestine their fair share of land.

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Post by sportsczy Mon Jan 19, 2015 3:52 pm

RealGunner wrote:Think you posted it and the linked the article. It has quotes in it lol, ofcourse you wouldn't write that.
ah.... old age is a biatch Laughing i didn't click.
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Post by Winter is Coming Mon Jan 19, 2015 6:29 pm

RealGunner wrote:Do you really trust hear-say?

If you really compare Hadiths with Quran, 80% of them will be fallacious. They are recorded by people who either have no records of ever existing or collected by people born 100+ years after Prophet Muhammad died(Muhammad al-Bukhari, the pioneer of Sahih Bukhari).

No, tbh I probably only hold very few hadiths for my own reminder.

I agree majority are fabricated and/or have nothing to do with the qu'ran, there is a reason why the prophet himself said any haidth that we hear we must verify with the qu'ran if it doesn't match it discard it.

There are also many books that have authentic hadith that describe how he didn't want people to write hadiths about him other then what he teaches about the qu'ran even at one point he gathered hadiths people written about him and burned them. He said never write anything and never gave some people even permission who asked.

This is why I believe he said the above thing that no matter what he knew people are going to write it even after his death without his consult, so he warned everyone to verify with the Qur'an.
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Post by Pedram Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:54 am

Another terror attack in France, wtf is going on?
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Post by Art Morte Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:03 pm

Yeah, very surprising.
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Post by Arquitecto Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:10 pm

Fundamentalist Islamists method is unironically shooting, decapitating or blowing shit up. How very subtle. Fuck them.
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Post by FennecFox7 Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:47 pm

Disgusting. Again, this is why I said France handles this the wrong way COMPLETELY. The flames of hate fan more hate.
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Post by McLewis Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:02 pm

This doesn't seem to happen anywhere else other than France and there are a lot of other countries with very large Muslim populations.

Why does this continue to happen in France specifically? I'm not particularly well educated on this yet.

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Post by Arquitecto Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:05 pm

Bigger population, more relevant city thus bigger news and coverage and accomplishing the spread of a message. Weigh it by yourself as well (the coverage) if one attacked a city like Toulouse to a city as relevant as Paris.
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Post by The Demon of Carthage Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:14 pm

In short? France did nothing wrong. The animal who killed three people today is a Tunisian aged 21. And this was fueled by a speech Macron gave earlier this month announcing his intention to fight “Islamist separatism”, in which he described the faith as one “that is in crisis all over the world today” and promised that France will keep on making those caricatures, prompting objections from people all over the Muslim world.

Now regardless of whether or not you're religious, why would you kill a helpless woman who did nothing to you over something that Macron said?

He's just a coward who wants to create division between the French people and immigrants of North-African descent and help FN to take over in 2022. The good news is, he didn't die and was taken to hospital. So I hope later he'll get the treatment he truly deserves and reveal the identities of all those involved.
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Post by McLewis Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:00 pm

That sounds like the definition of spreading terror.

From what you say, it doesn't sound like Macron is going about this at all the right way.

What is the stance of France's Muslim politicians and community leaders?
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Post by sportsczy Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:22 pm

McLewis wrote:This doesn't seem to happen anywhere else other than France and there are a lot of other countries with very large Muslim populations.

Why does this continue to happen in France specifically? I'm not particularly well educated on this yet.


No integration whatsoever.  Muslim immigrants have their own neighborhoods mostly.  You want systematic racism...  the US is a paradise compared to what goes on in France.  You can't even get into a good University or get a top job unless you look a certain way and your name is within norms.

Think of what's going on in the inner cities in the US... multiply that by a million... and add religious fundamentalism to spice things up. Replace slavery with colonialist oppression.

That's why the US message this summer resonated in so many places. This isn't only a US problem at all.
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