Paris: Charlie Hebdo shooting

The wishes of minorities are addressed... that's why you have a legal system.  They can express their dissatisfaction within the framework.  It's the same in the US.  For example, you have the right to demonstrate and go on strike peacefully if you have a problem, which many do.  You still get paid while on strike in most cases. There are also countless organizations designed to make every issue heard.

As far as Hara Kiri, they made fun of De Gaulle's death...  the government overreacted and they know it.  They did something to keep face while admitting that they shouldn't have clamped down on Hara Kiri:  the entire Hara Kiri organization became Charlie Hebdo almost instantly and they carried on.  The people spoke up in defense of Hara Kiri and the politicians had to backtrack.  That's how a democracy works.

the bottom line is this: you have poverty that leads to lack of education that leads to hopelessness. These are the people that get preyed on by extremists because they give them money, a purpose to their life and a scapegoat for their situation... a path to become relevant in a way. My favorite is the promise of 1000 virgins if you die in the service of god

You can't reason with these people at a certain point. You just need to kill them off. Those that can be saved are those that are still in the process of being completely radicalized... not those that are active jihadists.

I love France and i love the US. I love our freedoms. Is it perfect? Nothing is. But it allows us to work through our imperfections and evolve because there is always debate. You see, open debate is the key to the whole thing because it forces you to convince people. You don't dictate... you need to convince.

Wouldn't have it any other way.

At least that's how i feel.

But I feel as though its not really about freedom of speech. That's a massive red herring to the real agenda of the west. The west wants the world to live by their political and societal structure, purely on the basis that they "feel", as you do, that its way is the best way. Imposing it upon the "developing world" by force and through sanctions.

Does the west genuinely oppose the oppression of all religious values?
Does it truly oppose the occupation of palestine?
Does it oppose restricting a womans right to wear a Niqab, if she so wishes?
Does it oppose sanctions against governments who intend to increase its military power beyond a point that the west feels comfortable?
Does the west bat an eyelid when the persecution, expulsion and massacre of muslims occurs at Buddhist hands, who by the way still maintain an image of a peaceful religion?..

No.. the west don't really care about freedom of expression, they care about freedom of expression of their own values and beliefs (or non-beliefs).

Your idea of freedom comes at a cost to those that don't adhere to your same values. America and France have spread their colonies (America more subversively) in far more recent history to Islamic theocracies.. Yet the west fears world domination from a Muslim loony minority?

Muslims are the most persecuted and discriminated people in the modern era in my opinion - although probably not per capita. They make up a third of the worlds population yet most live in abject poverty, much of which has been at the hands of the west.

So when you talk about freedoms, have some understanding at least for those who couldn't care less about your desire to protect those freedoms when their freedoms have and still are consistently quashed.

Don't get me wrong. I too hope these guys are killed and die a slow, painful death. I hope the organisation instructing them are crushed and I hope this rise in Islamic extremism would f off already. I know people personally who have been lost to fundamental Islam at a young age from listening to backyard Imams who are poorly educated and whatever education they have stretches no further than washy scripture. It doesn't lead them too violent extremism but it does prevent them from at least a little exposure to some level of enlightenment, which is sad to see.

I just find this "we will stand up for our right to draw pictures of Muhammad shagging a donkey #imcharliehebdo" a bit ridiculous. Mutual respect needs to occur for any constructive path forward otherwise you just fuel the fire.

EDIT:

Anyway I am sorry for detracting from this very tragic event, that is still occurring in Dammartin-en-Goele, I hope it ends with as little damage and loss of life as possible.

if i want to draw a cartoon of Mohammed or anyone else shagging a donkey on a free platform, that's my prerogative.  If you don't like it, you don't need to look at it and you are free to ignore me.  You can also organize a protest and look up the law to see if there's anything there that can stop me from doing it... otherwise, toughen up.  You can also draw a cartoon of my mother shagging a donkey if you want to.

The freedom to do this is very important because it also allows for people like Martin Luther King Jr. to express themselves on civil rights although it wasn't popular to begin with.  Otherwise, the white population could have simply censored his message because "it didn't show respect to the traditions of general society".  It also allowed women to fight for equal rights publicly.

So yeah, it can be abused and that's because nothing is perfect.  But the positive aspects of it far far outweigh the negatives... so that's why we love it and we don't give a damn if you disagree.  You don't have to come to France if you don't like it.

The thread's been that derailed that no ones discussing that a police woman was killed. The killer apparently has 5 people hostage now.

When they helped ISIS to kill civilians in Syria they didn't think it will lead to this did they?

ISIS is killing Muslims left and right yet this is Islam to blame when some terrorists kill people in west.

West wants terrorism gone? first thing they should do is leave middle east alone. stop supporting Saudi Arabia. stop sending weapons to ISIS in Iraq. stop creating terrorist groups in the name of Islam. stop supporting dictators for years and after being done with them invade their countries in the name of freedom and fight against terrorism.

I feel the pain of French people. it's really sad what happened.

but you here are missing the main point....whats the reason behind all of this and who benefits most from it.

The problem is that Obama basically stopped all interference in the Middle East...  and this is what happened.  ISIS gained a hold and looked to expand while committing genocide.  So the US was forced to change course and get actively involved with its military again.

Let me tell you something... as long as terrorists are allowed to train in Iran, Irak, Syria, etc. and are funded by such, the US and the rest of the West is going nowhere.  We're going to be there and we will exert ourselves.

You want to be left alone?   Stop training and financing terrorists.  Stop with the aggressive language and the overt threats against other countries.  AS LONG AS there are threats in the Middle East, nobody will leave you alone. The West will not allow the Middle East to become a training round for extremists who can then stage attacks against the West, which is what is happening in France right now.

That's the reality of it. If anything, the current events will raise the public's appetite for involvement in the Middle East. Things are going to get far more aggressive.

Obama stopped all interference in the middle east? Lacking soldiers on the ground does not negate their involvement. You only need to look towards the patterns of US foreign AID (military aid) to understand this. They are still very much interfering in the region. Its a situation that may well be too far gone.

In fact I would welcome the re-invasion of Iraq in the wake of ISIS more than I would have when Saddam was in power - yet the US are no where to be seen when. Just like they are no where to be seen when numerous other mass genocide occurs across the globe.

Also see link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_military_bases - its a long list, I hope you have time.

ISIS were only able to develop enough power to gain any control in the region due to instability caused by the(french backed) war in the first place. The US had a clear plan for the region and after years of interference it clearly hasn't worked. Now America was "forced to get involved"? No, America effed up - left a country broken for any nut job with a healthy bank balance to run riot.

Who are you referring to when you say "you want to be left alone?". Islamic fundamentalism has increased to boiling point and it is almost exclusively due to western foreign policy.

As for your last concerning post.. I agree things are going to get more aggressive. We are talking about 12 deaths in the past week. That pales in comparison to what is coming. and I'll be bumping your last post of support for this when it does.

The way we're going I wouldn't be surprised if I don't trust the French with nuclear arms any more than Kim Jong Un in 5 years time.

This is the problem with minor hypocrisy, you have anti-slander laws in Western Europe, and now you're told that "all countries aren't allowing every kind of free speech - France is just like Saudi Arabia!" - it's a discussion of false equivalencies on all sides.

VivaStPauli wrote:This is the problem with minor hypocrisy, you have anti-slander laws in Western Europe, and now you're told that "all countries aren't allowing every kind of free speech - France is just like Saudi Arabia!" - it's a discussion of false equivalencies on all sides.

Yep. Slander and libel are foreign concepts apparently...

Yeah, because frankly, in Europe, yes there's some limits to free speech.
I'll take sportsczy as an example because he'll understand what I'm getting it:

I cannot, in France, publicly say "sportscy is a huge asshole", because that's just an insult helping nobody. I can however point out his similarities to an asshole, and say "like an asshole, sportsczy has at least one hole and two cheeks. Also, he is more than ten inches tall, which, for assholes, would make him huge."
At which point you are free to refute what I said by pointing out that it doesn't make any sense, but I clearly didn't slander him in any way.

Just like I can't go on TV in Germany and say "all muslims/christians/jews/French/Swedes are assholes", I can however, go on TV in Germany and say "many muslims/christians/jews/French/Swedes exhibited some asshole-like behavior, and here is my evidence [...]"
Free speech means you get to express your opinion. It doesn't mean you get to express your opinion in any way you like. Just like it doesn't protect outright lies. Just like you can't yell "fire!" in a crowded theatre, you can't incite racial hatred in most European countries.

VivaStPauli wrote:This is the problem with minor hypocrisy, you have anti-slander laws in Western Europe, and now you're told that "all countries aren't allowing every kind of free speech - France is just like Saudi Arabia!" - it's a discussion of false equivalencies on all sides.

fair point.

Wow its insane right now. both hostage situations are ending.

The brothers are dead.

Damn, a proper trial would've made this all easier.

VivaStPauli wrote:Damn, a proper trial would've made this all easier.

Just would have ended with them in Jail radicalizing a new generation. This ended the best for both parties as long as no hostages have been killed.

Key Points(BBC)

-Police storm building containing men suspected of Charlie Hebdo massacre
-Brothers Said and Cherif Kouachi killed, hostage reportedly freed
-Hostage-taker also killed in assault on Paris supermarket, police say
-Hostages seen coming out of supermarket after police operation

I'll give you the french media's summary
-  The 2 terrorists in the industrial building were killed
-  The person in that industrial building was not a hostage.  He hid when he saw these guys come in.  They didn't see him.  He was sending text messages to the police while he was hiding to let them know what the terrorists were doing.
-  The 2 terrorists weren't attacked.  They rushed out of the building looking to shoot at the police and got killed.  Then the police rushed into the building to find the non-hostage and get him out (dude is a hero)
-  In the supermarket:  2 terrorists were involved; one was of african decent and the other was north african.  Identity of the north african terrorist has not been released.  They killed 2-3 people when taking over the supermarket.  When the police rushed the building, they killed the 2 terrorists.  1 hostage may have been killed also but they're not sure whether it happened then or before.  In the end, 5 people were killed here including the terrorists.
-  There are both civilian and police injuries.
-  The girlfriend of the terrorist of African decent is still loose.
-  They are now raiding the neighborhood where all these guys came from.  They all knew each other and attended the same mosque.  That mosque is apparently radical.

Really good operation.  I was impressed.

I'm pretty sure they said the North African in the supermarket was Hayat Boumediene.


She looks kind of like an older version of my daughter

Hope they don't move to france right now.

No... they said two males on BFM TV and kept repeating it to make sure that the viewers were clear.  They have no idea where the girl is and are still searching + the identification of the second terrorist has not been released to the media.

It could be proven wrong.  But they keep repeating this.

sportsczy wrote:No... they said two males on BFM TV and kept repeating it to make sure that the viewers were clear.  They have no idea where the girl is and are still searching + the identification of the second terrorist has not been released to the media.

It could be proven wrong.  But they keep repeating this.

So are they sure right now it was Coulibaly in the store?

They are sure Coulibaly was in the store and one of the one's killed...  but they're not sure who the other person was.  Was there another male terrorist?  There's also news that it may have been the girl and that she escaped when the hostages were being evacuated by pretending like she was a hostage too.

A bit of chaos regarding the 4th terrorist  Do we know where fusbal is right now?

El Gunner wrote:This may be a bit paranoid, but with all the shit that's been going on lately how silly would it be to think about the possibility of a WW3 within the next few years?

5% because North Korea

we've been in WW3 for a while now...  the enemy is not a country though.  It's extremism and not just the Islamic ones.