CL R16: Shakhtar Donetsk vs FC Bayern München

Hapless_Hans wrote:
He was more or less the best player on the pitch in the frigging World Cup final, saving Hummels ass.

I have to jump in here because it's not quite fully true, well he did but only because Hummels was covering for Hoewedes who was all over the place due to being a CB at LB.

It started an entire domino effect which led to everyone covering for each other lol, even the RB( can't remember who it was)  was constantly covering for Boateng.

Luckily Argentina for some baffling reason took Lavezzi off because they were getting constant joy with the whole back 4 out of place.

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:No one seems to be mentioning this but Pep basically built this Bayern aside around Thiago. They literally have nobody else who helps link the play between Schweinsteiger and the attacking players and who knows exactly how to transition from midfield to attack.

They looked good last year when he actually played, I still believe they would have won the CL if he stayed fit not so much because he's some grand saviour or anything but they have no one else like him.

It balances the whole team and helps everyone seamlessly into their roles, it simply doesn't work without him because there is no alternative.

While this is true that Thiago is in theory, and has been during the spell he played last year, a very important player for Pep, I don't know man... "it simply doesn't work without him" ?!

He's been injured for a year, and we're doing kind of OKAY, you know

And about winning the CL, one thing that I cannot wrap my head around is this notion that we're this team which is expected to win the CL just like that.
We're not. We're up there, but other teams aren't bad you know.
And then it's so much about intensity.
We won the CL 2013 because we had built up a lot of motivation, you know.

After that, we're suddenly the bestest team and that clown Paul Breitner is publicly like "If Bayern play up to par there's no way they can lose against Real".

Well guess what, with that kind of attitude you will NOT be up to par, against teams with arguably more individual talent.

Okay I rephrase that, it doesn't work against the very best teams.

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:No one seems to be mentioning this but Pep basically built this Bayern aside around Thiago. They literally have nobody else who helps link the play between Schweinsteiger and the attacking players and who knows exactly how to transition from midfield to attack.

They looked good last year when he actually played, I still believe they would have won the CL if he stayed fit not so much because he's some grand saviour or anything but they have no one else like him.

It balances the whole team and helps everyone seamlessly into their roles, it simply doesn't work without him because there is no alternative.

I said this when he got injured last year and Nick said it was BS. Thiago is their only cm that can relive pressure and drive the ball from mf. O well.

Hapless_Hans wrote:Cost Bayern?

Lol, the last 2 seasons were the 2 record defensive years in Bundesliga history. In one of them we won the treble, then a double with, both with record low goals conceded.
Not to mention we're on track to beat the record of 2013.
We went unbeaten in the Bundesliga with 4 goals conceded until Wolfsburg, and he was beasting all the whole first half season.
Until Wolfsburg with Boateng starting we were 50+ games unbeaten.
He was more or less the best player on the pitch in the frigging World Cup final, saving Hummels ass against Messi and cleaning up everything in overtime.
And on top of that his build up play has exploded this season, where he makes these fast vertical passes. Have you seen the Dortmund game in fall?

Lol.

He's like the Benzema of defenders, playing at a consistent high level for a top team over years, winning everything, but every clown on an internet forums for some reason thinks it's casually adequate to call him a scub without any accountability.

TBH, I don't really rate any cbs in Europe bar Smalling. Don't take it personally. The one I don't rate at Bayern is Dante. That defensive record has more to do with Bayerns possession and Neuer sweeping up to be honest but I get your point.

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:No one seems to be mentioning this but Pep basically built this Bayern aside around Thiago. They literally have nobody else who helps link the play between Schweinsteiger and the attacking players and who knows exactly how to transition from midfield to attack.

They looked good last year when he actually played, I still believe they would have won the CL if he stayed fit not so much because he's some grand saviour or anything but they have no one else like him.

It balances the whole team and helps everyone seamlessly into their roles, it simply doesn't work without him because there is no alternative.

100% agreed. As I mentioned in my post. Thiago-Bastian/Alonso-Goetze(free role) is the best midfield combination Pep can play.

stop it with your FIFA informed judgements RG

RealGunner wrote:

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:No one seems to be mentioning this but Pep basically built this Bayern aside around Thiago. They literally have nobody else who helps link the play between Schweinsteiger and the attacking players and who knows exactly how to transition from midfield to attack.

They looked good last year when he actually played, I still believe they would have won the CL if he stayed fit not so much because he's some grand saviour or anything but they have no one else like him.

It balances the whole team and helps everyone seamlessly into their roles, it simply doesn't work without him because there is no alternative.

100% agreed. As I mentioned in my post. Thiago-Bastian/Alonso-Goetze(free role) is the best midfield combination Pep can play.

Gotze needs to be allowed to play his game. Pep is ruining his career ffs.

Fifa is always right

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:Okay I rephrase that, it doesn't work against the very best teams.

Well I'm not going to argue with you that Thiago offers a special creative quality, that would be very helpful for our play.
Because I'm of course looking forward to him returning, but given his 3 consecutive injuries on the same ligament I guess you can understand my stance at the moment is rather to pretend we do not have a player called Thiago until I see evidence to the contrary

But I cannot see how you could have enough evidence to make an assessment like that, 'without Thiago it doesn't work against top teams'.
All because of the Real game last year? There's so many reasons why it went like that, Thiago missing is but one of them, and I'm not convinced it's the single most crucial one at all. The whole team was in terrible form then, and Pep did his share of mistakes.

This season, Pep has addressed what was so tedious about our last season runout, the horizontal passing around the opponent box and the too slow build up.
Maybe that Thiago (and various other players) wasn't there played a part, as did Kroos leaving (who was the main horizontal passer...)
But as I said, this season we've been playing these hard hit vertical passes into Götze/Robben/Müller, to kind of bridge the central midfield play (in place of a Thiago transitioning from midfield to attack?), and use counterpressing if those passes don't work immediately, as then the opposition defense is still brought into dissaray and we can use this if we win the ball back.
In my opinion somewhat noticeably different from last season, and it's worked great.
Of course, if you're of the opinion that everything is measured by the big games against the 'greatest teams' which are supposed to follow in spring (if we get past Shakhtar lol), then the jury is still out.
But for me, watching every league game, I'm pretty much as happy as I can possibly be with the way Pep has us playing. To categorically critisize his tactics is ridiculous, to say the least.
No other teams play like that and it's just very enjoyable, and if we lose to some team in the CL, so be it.

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:Luckily Argentina for some baffling reason took Lavezzi off because they were getting constant joy with the whole back 4 out of place.

Worse call than taking Riquelme off in 2006...

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:

Hapless_Hans wrote:
He was more or less the best player on the pitch in the frigging World Cup final, saving Hummels ass.

I have to jump in here because it's not quite fully true, well he did but only because Hummels was covering for Hoewedes who was all over the place due to being a CB at LB.

It started an entire domino effect which led to everyone covering for each other lol, even the RB( can't remember who it was)  was constantly covering for Boateng.

Luckily Argentina for some baffling reason took Lavezzi off because they were getting constant joy with the whole back 4 out of place.

ok sure, but I'm not claiming Germany were not endangered in that game (that huge gaping space between defense and midfield in the beginning of the second half LOL, and Argentina running riot on Höwedes/Hummels side in the beginning.
I'm just saying Boateng was outstanding in the final.

RealGunner wrote:I don't know what's going on with Goetze. He either isn't playing in his proper role, or he suffers for inconsistent performances. With his talent, he should be talked about in the same breath as with the likes of Hazard, Wilshere, Neymar etc. But he doesn't seem to have any type of role under Pep.

Not letting you get away with that one ScrubGunner.

Bayern's failure to secure an away goal ensures that Shakhtar are still in this, however the balance of play in the first leg still suggests that they should progress. A team with such quality up front can't keep missing forever and they'll do the business at home. Every year people tend to choose their favourites based on how teams perform in these still early rounds but in the end it's quite irrelevant in knockout football. Real struggled to get past Dortmund in the end in the quarters, Milan barely crept past Celtic when we last one, Chelsea looked to be in constant peril during their triumph. As long as you win, your form from previous rounds means absolutely nothing. I still wouldn't swap Bayern's squad for anyone's if I had the luxury, though I'm dying to see Pep take on Barcelona.

dostoevsky wrote:

RealGunner wrote:I don't know what's going on with Goetze. He either isn't playing in his proper role, or he suffers for inconsistent performances. With his talent, he should be talked about in the same breath as with the likes of Hazard, Wilshere, Neymar etc. But he doesn't seem to have any type of role under Pep.

Not letting you get away with that one ScrubGunner.

Bayern's failure to secure an away goal ensures that Shakhtar are still in this, however the balance of play in the first leg still suggests that they should progress. A team with such quality up front can't keep missing forever and they'll do the business at home. Every year people tend to choose their favourites based on how teams perform in these still early rounds but in the end it's quite irrelevant in knockout football. Real struggled to get past Dortmund in the end in the quarters, Milan barely crept past Celtic when we last one, Chelsea looked to be in constant peril during their triumph. As long as you win, your form from previous rounds means absolutely nothing. I still wouldn't swap Bayern's squad for anyone's if I had the luxury, though I'm dying to see Pep take on Barcelona.

Loooooooooooooool, you sly dog G

BarrileteCosmico wrote:

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:Luckily Argentina for some baffling reason took Lavezzi off because they were getting constant joy with the whole back 4 out of place.

Worse call than taking Riquelme off in 2006...

are you sure?

take out riquelme in that 2006 qf before full time vs germany is equal to:
1) take out maradona in 1986 wc qf vs england
2) take out kempes in 1978 wc final vs holland
3) take out messi in 2010 cl qf vs arsenal at camp nou

Higuain is the only reason why Messi didn't win the WC.

RealGunner wrote:Higuain is the only reason why Messi didn't win the WC.

Argentina reached the final by accident FFS. They couldn't win Iran legitly...

jibers wrote:That defensive record has more to do with Bayerns possession and Neuer sweeping up to be honest but I get your point.

You know what I really find funny is that people don't rate Manuel Neuer, "because be plays behind the best defense evar". And now people don't rate the best defense evar because they have Manuel Neuer to clean up behind them?

People, please make up your mind! (Although actually I prefer the idea of Manuel Neuer being the bestest evar who bails out Bayern and Germany all the time )

salmano9 wrote:Argentina reached the final by accident FFS. They couldn't win Iran legitly...

They were pretty close to losing out against Switzerland, too.

Meh, Germany almost got done in by Algeria, and only drew Ghana, while Brazil got the ref to carry them through the early matches. Knockouts are hardly ever all that fair.

guest_07 wrote:

BarrileteCosmico wrote:

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:Luckily Argentina for some baffling reason took Lavezzi off because they were getting constant joy with the whole back 4 out of place.

Worse call than taking Riquelme off in 2006...

are you sure?

take out riquelme in that 2006 qf before full time vs germany is equal to:
1) take out maradona in 1986 wc qf vs england
2) take out kempes in 1978 wc final vs holland
3) take out messi in 2010 cl qf vs arsenal at camp nou

Yes I'm sure. Lavezzi was by far our most dangerous player the entire first half in a WC final. Supposedly he asked Sabella to take him off at HT but I don't believe this, because he had 15 minutes of rest. If he was so tired he should have played until the 60th mark or before being subbed out. Meanwhile Aguero came in who was clearly not match fit and unable to run. We were playing with a player less the rest of the match.

While the Riquelme sub was bad, it was in a circumstance where we were already winning and we were trying to park the bus, which while not the correct call at least has some rationale in it (Riquelme's weak point has always been defensive contribution). Not in the highest stage when we were trying to chase the game.

salmano9 wrote:

RealGunner wrote:Higuain is the only reason why Messi didn't win the WC.

Argentina reached the final by accident FFS. They couldn't win Iran legitly...

are you talking about the team that were bus parking and playing for draw the first 2 games in a hope that they would miraculously win the final game and move next round???

BarrileteCosmico wrote:

guest_07 wrote:

BarrileteCosmico wrote:
Worse call than taking Riquelme off in 2006...

are you sure?

take out riquelme in that 2006 qf before full time vs germany is equal to:
1) take out maradona in 1986 wc qf vs england
2) take out kempes in 1978 wc final vs holland
3) take out messi in 2010 cl qf vs arsenal at camp nou

Yes I'm sure. Lavezzi was by far our most dangerous player the entire first half in a WC final. Supposedly he asked Sabella to take him off at HT but I don't believe this, because he had 15 minutes of rest. If he was so tired he should have played until the 60th mark or before being subbed out. Meanwhile Aguero came in who was clearly not match fit and unable to run. We were playing with a player less the rest of the match.

While the Riquelme sub was bad, it was in a circumstance where we were already winning and we were trying to park the bus, which while not the correct call at least has some rationale in it (Riquelme's weak point has always been defensive contribution). Not in the highest stage when we were trying to chase the game.

want to play defensive when had a 1-0 lead vs germany as host & argentina was not italy, i call that as a suicide attempt

I'm not saying it was a good call, only that benching Lavezzi was the worse call.

neuro11 wrote:

salmano9 wrote:

RealGunner wrote:Higuain is the only reason why Messi didn't win the WC.

Argentina reached the final by accident FFS. They couldn't win Iran legitly...

are you talking about the team that were bus parking and playing for draw the first 2 games in a hope that they would miraculously win the final game and move next round???

Chelsea style Thats a tactic, to park the bus... Thats what most asian teams would do tbh. And as rwo said, they almost lost to the swiss... Holland deserved to be in the final, cuz they had the most convincing results and play. Germany were of course, a power horse.

Don't know if it's just one of those days, but all of a sudden I'm firmly convinced that we will go out to Shakhtar next week because my opening post was too long and wannabe witty.

Discuss.

You can't undo the GL jinx that easily Hansen