League styles and competing in European competition

It's Pelle's second season for City. In his first he won the league and league cup double and went out to Barca in the knockouts.

They played some nice football as well.

So, he was doing just pretty *bleep* great, and right now he's certainly not doing worse than 3/4 of the other PL top teams.

Hapless_Hans wrote:It's Pelle's second season for City. In his first he won the league and league cup double and went out to Barca in the knockouts.

They played some nice football as well.

So, he was doing just pretty *bleep* great, and right now he's certainly not doing worse than 3/4 of the other PL top teams.

Mybad forgot his stint at Malaga.

Either way tho, Winning PL (which is plenty difficult) & 2 Cups is one thing, but his record in Europe is terrible. He hasn't adapted his squad to play outside of PL and yet look at all the resources at his disposal. Clearly lackluster, ATM.

Lord Awesome wrote:

Hapless_Hans wrote:It's Pelle's second season for City. In his first he won the league and league cup double and went out to Barca in the knockouts.

They played some nice football as well.

So, he was doing just pretty *bleep* great, and right now he's certainly not doing worse than 3/4 of the other PL top teams.

Mybad forgot his stint at Malaga.

Either way tho, Winning PL (which is plenty difficult) & 2 Cups is one thing, but his record in Europe is terrible. He hasn't adapted his squad to play outside of PL and yet look at all the resources at his disposal. Clearly lackluster, ATM.

City's underperforming in Europe predates Pellegrini though. I know Maldini is notorious for that, but still that seems to be something that is not easy to overcome.
Still think the seeding and draws play a part, if Chelsea or Arsenal had similarly difficult groups you might see them struggling to get out of the groupstages as well, who knows.

Agreed though, this season's CL showing were probably unacceptable.
But I'm not really sure what you mean with'adapt the squad to play outside of PL', exactly?

Hapless_Hans wrote:
But I'm not really sure what you mean with'adapt the squad to play outside of PL', exactly?

Basically being able to play readily against teams that are outside of PL. It's one thing play a domestic team than playing against a foreign team.

Lord Awesome wrote:

Hapless_Hans wrote:It's Pelle's second season for City. In his first he won the league and league cup double and went out to Barca in the knockouts.

They played some nice football as well.

So, he was doing just pretty *bleep* great, and right now he's certainly not doing worse than 3/4 of the other PL top teams.

Mybad forgot his stint at Malaga.

Either way tho, Winning PL (which is plenty difficult) & 2 Cups is one thing, but his record in Europe is terrible. He hasn't adapted his squad to play outside of PL and yet look at all the resources at his disposal. Clearly lackluster, ATM.

at least he got to semi with villarreal, thanks to riquelme

Lord Awesome wrote:

Hapless_Hans wrote:
But I'm not really sure what you mean with'adapt the squad to play outside of PL', exactly?

Basically being able to play readily against teams that are outside of PL. It's one thing play a domestic team than playing against a foreign team.

what would you say is the difference, exactly? Honest question, I've read Mole make a similar argument and I don't quite understand it.

Hapless_Hans wrote:
what would you say is the difference, exactly? Honest question, I've read Mole make a similar argument and I don't quite understand it.

Teams play according to what kind of players they have & according to what manager they have. I can use Bayern Munchen as an example. Bayern are full of players that more or less reflect the German style of footy. That is, they're quite balanced in more or less every line. They are managed by Guardiola who also throws in his touch to the team. The reason this team doesn't play like exactly Barca, however, is because it's a German team through & through and therefore they play like a German team more than anything else. It's the same case in almost every team in every league. Though there are always exceptions. Particularly in teams who have players who aren't influenced by the country's domestic league. Notable examples now are this RM side who, in my opinion, seem to play more of an EPL style than La Liga Style, atm. They certainly have a very physical edge to them which can be said of mostly all English teams, but they also have a good amount of technical qualities though I'd say they are somewhat frail mentally. Another big example can be the 2010 Inter side that only featured Materazzi as their sole Italian player. Again, a very physical side to them but with the right balance of technique & good defensive & mental qualities. Even tho, they lacked starting Italian players (bar the ones who are descended from Italians, if that counts) they did mimic somewhat what an Italian team is like. The classic strong defense good offense idealogy. To me, they had a PL/Serie A style mix. Almost like what how a Ligue 1 side plays only a tad slower but more technical.

As I said before, it all comes down to what the team consists from players to manager that defines the style they play. Not every team plays the same why and differences become more obvious when one watches footy outside their borders. Managers & players are all students of the sport and I notice they all are taught in diverse ways. That is not to say every player/manager will have their domestic style. Some will be influenced by foreign styles and will certainly adopt the style and will form their own unique style. Clubs and players are sometimes influenced by these adoptions. Spain's Barca influenced by Dutch style Ajax is perhaps the best exemplification I can give here. Philosophies and such are born and sometimes identities are created. Stereotypes and the like are then given based on nationality of players, clubs, & National sides. Sometimes there's cases when a team, manager, or player have definitive style and yet, though it might sound contradicting, that in itself can be called a style.

I'm aware I went full footy nerd here but I hope I at least even remotely answered your question.

Lord Awesome wrote:

Hapless_Hans wrote:
what would you say is the difference, exactly? Honest question, I've read Mole make a similar argument and I don't quite understand it.

Teams play according to what kind of players they have & according to what manager they have. I can use Bayern Munchen as an example. Bayern are full of players that more or less reflect the German style of footy. That is, they're quite balanced in more or less every line. They are managed by Guardiola who also throws in his touch to the team. The reason this team doesn't play like exactly Barca, however, is because it's a German team through & through and therefore they play like a German team more than anything else. It's the same case in almost every team in every league. Though there are always exceptions. Particularly in teams who have players who aren't influenced by the country's domestic league. Notable examples now are this RM side who, in my opinion, seem to play more of an EPL style than La Liga Style, atm. They certainly have a very physical edge to them which can be said of mostly all English teams, but they also have a good amount of technical qualities though I'd say they are somewhat frail mentally. Another big example can be the 2010 Inter side that only featured Materazzi as their sole Italian player. Again, a very physical side to them but with the right balance of technique & good defensive & mental qualities. Even tho, they lacked starting Italian players (bar the ones who are descended from Italians, if that counts) they did mimic somewhat what an Italian team is like. The classic strong defense good offense idealogy. To me, they had a PL/Serie A style mix. Almost like what how a Ligue 1 side plays only a tad slower but more technical.

As I said before, it all comes down to what the team consists from players to manager that defines the style they play. Not every team plays the same why and differences become more obvious when one watches footy outside their borders. Managers & players are all students of the sport and I notice they all are taught in diverse ways. That is not to say every player/manager will have their domestic style. Some will be influenced by foreign styles and will certainly adopt the style and will form their own unique style. Clubs and players are sometimes influenced by these adoptions. Spain's Barca influenced by Dutch style Ajax is perhaps the best exemplification I can give here. Philosophies and such are born and sometimes identities are created. Stereotypes and the like are then given based on nationality of players, clubs, & National sides. Sometimes there's cases when a team, manager, or player have definitive style and yet, though it might sound contradicting, that in itself can be called a style.

I'm aware I went full footy nerd here but I hope I at least even remotely answered your question.

Thanks for the detailed answer, though I'm still not really sure I get the point.
What you unfold is a general description of how there are different 'styles' in different leagues/countries, but then you gon on to detail how if you look at individual teams, that gets more complicated.
For example, I'm not really sure what about Bayern is "German through and through, and we play "like a German team more than anything else"? I don't know what that means tbh. I don't see what the evidence for that is.
You use the word 'balanced', would you say it's a trait of Bundesliga teams that they are more 'balanced' than other league's teams?

And the Premier League is more 'physical'?
Isn't that definition of 'style' rather an euphemism for a lack of certain qualities?
So if a PL team struggles in Europe, should we say the 'style' in the PL is more 'physical', or wouldn't it be easier, for the general purpose of a discussion of relations between leagues, to say that other teams are tactically or technically better?

Same with the other way round, if, in a hypothetical situation lol, Chelsea manage to win against Barcelona using height superiority, is that really a clash of 'styles', or should we not just say that one weakness of Barca is that they're generally small in height as a team lol.

As for City, looking at the players and manager I don't see why their team is not 'European' enough. So I doon't see why they would have 'cultural' trouble competing in european competitions.
It only makes sense to me to say that in their league they are not challenged in certain areas the way they are challenged in competition with teams from other leagues, midfield play, tactical discipline etc.
I don't know whom it serves to make that out as a question of 'style' or 'identity' rather than just a situation where certain qualities or lack thereof are becoming relevant.

Leagues play mostly based on the style of the managers... there's also fan expectations as to what they want their teams to do.  So in France, the teams tend to play the style that's taught through the french coaching training system.  Same in Spain, Italy and Germany.  UK still has a lot of local coaches although it has a lot of foreign ones too... so it's a mix.

Also, most of the players tend to come through the youth ranks... who almost exclusively use these nationally trained managers... so their skills tend to fit the "national style" naturally.

The foreign coaches tend to adapt their style to the local environment too.  

The technical direction taken by the domestic league in terms of how managers are trained has a MASSIVE impact on the domestic leagues.  That's why i tend to pay a lot of attention to this kind of stuff... in France, for example, the technical direction has changed to mirror the one used in Spain since 2012.  You won't see the impact now... but i expect the changes to show come 2017-2018.

ok.
Then please, talk to me like I'm stupid (because I kind of am), could you detail me the traits and differences of let's say, the English, German, Spanish, Italian and French styles?

Maybe that could be a separate thread though, something like 'league styles and competing in European competition'.

The reason I'm interested in this is:
ok we can posit there are different styles, which are historically informed, but since there's a COMPETITION in CL/EL between these styles, AND there's a lot of fluctuation in personell, ideas and knowledge nowadays, at what point becomes the notion of styles obsolete in face of a competitive situation where everyone could theoretically have the same tools at their disposal?

I don't really feel like writing an educational piece. Use google and you can find plenty of articles and research on national training systems.... surprised you don't know about the revolution that happened in Germany after the 2004 Euro.

Klinsmann describes it here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/world_cup_2010/8789682.stm

Obviously I know about that, that's the point. That's why I ask, are we still 'German' the way we were in the decades before lol.
Or have we gotten over that nonsense and applied knowledge without national markers.

Don't come to me with Klinsmann though lol, Sammer was the guy who actually did this.

Oh. I thought you meant that there is no distinctive style in Germany right now... not that there is this one German style that is only German. The later is ridiculous of course.

My point is that the encompassing style of a league is usually dictated by the technical direction of its federation. They massively influence all the teams save the elite ones because they control the training of the managers.

As far as Klinsmann... he had the vision and Sammer executed it for him. Klinsmann is more a manager and motivational guy; not at all a tactical or technical manager.

RWO you are a life saver!!

Basically Manchester City changed Mancini with Pellegrini because it wanted to get a real upgrade in Europe, and it was a legit choice because we made the same thing in 2008 and signed Mourinho in place of him ... but if Pellegrini got knocked out immediately also this year , where is the upgrade? And it is not just a matter of results, I 've seen City against Roma and CSKA at Eithad and it was a team with no personality and mentality.
Basically if Pellegrini gets knocked badly also this year he deserved to be sacked, as it was for Mancini . I wouldn't see improvement

guest_07 wrote:

Lord Awesome wrote:

Hapless_Hans wrote:It's Pelle's second season for City. In his first he won the league and league cup double and went out to Barca in the knockouts.

They played some nice football as well.

So, he was doing just pretty *bleep* great, and right now he's certainly not doing worse than 3/4 of the other PL top teams.

Mybad forgot his stint at Malaga.

Either way tho, Winning PL (which is plenty difficult) & 2 Cups is one thing, but his record in Europe is terrible. He hasn't adapted his squad to play outside of PL and yet look at all the resources at his disposal. Clearly lackluster, ATM.

at least he got to semi with villarreal, thanks to riquelme

Don't remember me this pls , Villareal 2005 is one of my worst memories as fan

No I think my question would really be, does it make sense to talk of a 'distinctive style' of German football?
Or is it simply we've improved general coaching education to include more qualities, other knowledge and other emphases than before?

Or accordingly, does it make sense to talk of a distinctive 'PL' style? Or is it more helpful and blunt to say deficits have developed compared to the evolution of football elsewhere?

Basically I think it doesn't make much sense to talk about a distinctive style now , globalization has affected also football , and Harry Redknapp with his dogmatic 4-4-2 is an exception in Premier
I think Premier League is changed much during years than First Division
Serie A resists and it is still anchored to past  canons  but this is not necessarily a good thing, nay probably it is one of reasons for our decline .but we have often the presumption to think we are still better than the rest and there is not need to update our football

Robespierre wrote:

Don't remember me this pls  , Villareal 2005 is one of my worst memories as fan

I was talking about his time with Man City. His time in Villareal is another story.

Hapless_Hans wrote:


Thanks for the detailed answer, though I'm still not really sure I get the point.
What you unfold is a general description of how there are different 'styles' in different leagues/countries, but then you gon on to detail how if you look at individual teams, that gets more complicated.
For example, I'm not really sure what about Bayern is "German through and through, and we play "like a German team more than anything else"? I don't know what that means tbh. I don't see what the evidence for that is.
You use the word 'balanced', would you say it's a trait of Bundesliga teams that they are more 'balanced' than other league's teams?

And the Premier League is more 'physical'?
Isn't that definition of 'style' rather an euphemism for a lack of certain qualities?
So if a PL team struggles in Europe, should we say the 'style' in the PL is more 'physical', or wouldn't it be easier, for the general purpose of a discussion of relations between leagues, to say that other teams are tactically or technically better?

Same with the other way round, if, in a hypothetical situation lol, Chelsea manage to win against Barcelona using height superiority, is that really a clash of 'styles', or should we not just say that one weakness of Barca is that they're generally small in height as a team lol.

As for City, looking at the players and manager I don't see why their team is not 'European' enough. So I doon't see why they would have 'cultural' trouble competing in european competitions.
It only makes sense to me to say that in their league they are not challenged in certain areas the way they are challenged in competition with teams from other leagues, midfield play, tactical discipline etc.
I don't know whom it serves to make that out as a question of 'style' or 'identity' rather than just a situation where certain qualities or lack thereof are becoming relevant.

I would say it's more of a trait that players have as in, When I used Balanced to describe Bayern Munich I meant that their players consist of players who have an all round style of play and never really focusing on a specific trait such as Passing, Dribbling, Speed etc. If you look at this German NT there's no real Xavilike or Pirlolike player. Ozil & Gotze, comes closest to the sort of player that's unorthodox to the German norm. For example, when I think of a German AM what comes more to mind is a player like Kroos, Reus, or even  Ballack.  Players who aren't complete virtuoso's Technically but are well rounded enough by being good in other areas to make up for the lack of Technique. Namely, they also excell in Physical and/or Mental traits. Thomas Muller, who is plenty Technical for a Forward, makes up his lack of Techncal skill through his Mental attributes which is often oveerlooked. In other words the guys smarter/ more clever than he is skilled. Certainly explains why he scores so many goals. Gerd Muller had that trait that took him up there as well. Klose scored so much as well for the same reason. Now that doesn't mean Germany don't have or haven't had players that you'd find in other leagues like lets say Southern Europe or Latin America. Netzer, Scholl, Gotze, Hassler are examples of those. There's always exceptions but from what I've seen players who play in this style are in the minority when it comes to player production in Germany in comparison to the more balanced players that have played/play in the Bundesliga. Therefore that's where I dub the Bundesliga & Germany NT as playing a balanced style due to the majority of players

As for EPL being more Physical than Bundesliga that one's more obvious. PL's main production of players are similar to German players in physique but are even less Technically affiliated and rely on much more emphasis on their Physical traits who often get degraded, here in GL, for it. If you look at the English NT you'll notice most of their players best attributes tend to Physical. Either they run really really fast, had tremendous workrate, or they are powerful shooters. Same laws of exceptions apply here, though. Are there exceptions? Certainly. Downing, Joe Cole, Carrick etc. are all players whose best attributes are Technical which is much rarer to find in England than in the Bundesliga. But as I pointed out before these players are in the minority in player production in England. The majority of English players (who themselves are not or are barely the majority in their league) play their style and thus shape the league in their style.

Now that I got that outta the way, I do want to mention that styles do seem to work on a Rock, Paper, Scissors way on each other. Now, I don't think none is particularly better than the other, since really it's the players overall levels that usually determine who wins or losses. Managers (tactics) and their use of styles can just maybe influence the the result. Barca didn't lose due to their lack of height. I think they lost because they simply didn't score. If Mascherano had Passarella's aerial ability then I don't height would be an issue. So I'll just say lack of aerial ability was a significant factor. Not cause Masch was too short. Still agree tho.

As for City, I'm not saying they are not European enough, either. I think for them it's more lack of proper leadership. Cultural factors was never part of my argument. More in the direction that other leagues styles can challenge them in ways they have no real response to, atm. So they suffer. And yeah it's not that I think Pelle's a bad manager or anything it's just that a team like Man City, like Real Madrid, just isn't his strong suit in terms of handling. He's a guy who's strong points are building teams to the top with more humble players. Man City is star filled and with the sort players at his disposal I can see why his team isn't really jelled.

Dang an hour and a half writing this. I freakin' suck.

at least he got to semi with villarreal, thanks to riquelme[/quote]

Don't remember me this pls , Villareal 2005 is one of my worst memories as fan[/quote]

i'm apologize for my insensitive act

Lord Awesome wrote:

Robespierre wrote:

Don't remember me this pls  , Villareal 2005 is one of my worst memories as fan

I was talking about his time with Man City. His time in Villareal is another story.

i'm apologize for my insensitive act

thank you

I dont think I am writing anything new, but I would still add here.

The style or the system you play can take you only so far to reach some stage; but I think in the end what matters is how managers can adjust their tactics according to players they have. So i would put it this way, that league style is not such a significant factor as tactics and strategy of particular club or country, when you are competing in Europe.

guest_07 wrote:
i'm apologize for my insensitive act

Well, I don't know what you did or said, but hey, it's all good. No harm done.