The Terrifying Rise of ISIS

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Post by VivaStPauli Fri Aug 15, 2014 2:29 am

@Art Morte wrote:
@BarrileteCosmico wrote:
@Art Morte wrote:Civil wars have happened throughout history and have more or less stabilized nations. Just let them fight out one over there and establish some natural power.
Are you being sarcastic? scratch


A little, but not that much. If this happened a 100 years ago they would fight out a civil war over there and a more stabilized nation would appear. That's how it's gone in so many countries' history. The West have nowadays the means to force peace over there with their military presence, but they don't seem to have a permanent, peaceful solution to the problems in that region.


This article agrees with you:
http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/55210/edward-n-luttwak/give-war-a-chance
I read this in university a while ago, and while I agree with some points it's a bit bleak and cynical for my liking.

Regarding this current conflict, there have been more retarded ideas that have seen their implementation than arming the Kurds, a people in dire need, and well deserving of, their own nation.

This wishful thinking aside, if the Kurds manage to fight off ISIS, Turkey and Iran will be very worried about their borders.

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Post by BarrileteCosmico Fri Aug 15, 2014 10:00 am

@Art Morte wrote:
@BarrileteCosmico wrote:
@Art Morte wrote:Civil wars have happened throughout history and have more or less stabilized nations. Just let them fight out one over there and establish some natural power.
Are you being sarcastic? scratch


A little, but not that much. If this happened a 100 years ago they would fight out a civil war over there and a more stabilized nation would appear. That's how it's gone in so many countries' history. The West have nowadays the means to force peace over there with their military presence, but they don't seem to have a permanent, peaceful solution to the problems in that region.

Sure, but wouldn't you say it's fair to characterize ISIS as a genuine threat to Europe and North America? Do you really think that if they gain power in Iraq (and Syria, and Lebanon... ) they would not also fund attacks against the the Londons, NYCs and Paris' of the world? Would you also not agree that those countries that went to war with Iraq have a responsibility to leave behind a stable and inclusive government that does not mass murder certain religious groups?

I think there are strong moral arguments and self preservation ones for going in.
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Post by iftikhar Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:21 pm

@mr-r34 wrote:
@BarrileteCosmico wrote:This Iraq is such a cluster****. What are the thoughts on splitting it up along ethnic lines here? I used to think it was just the latest grand white man idea but considering how the original borders were drawn up in the aftermath of WWI by imperial France and England I'm more open to the idea. The Kurds on the very least want to be their own country.


Your going to have to split it up in like 4 countries, won't ever work.


Not to mention additional splitting that will necessitate in neighboring countries like Syria, Iran, Jordan etc. And that in turn initiation more splitting in those countries.
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Post by RealGunner Wed Aug 20, 2014 8:13 am

ISIS Reportedly Beheads U.S. Journalist James Wright Foley on Camera.

Absolutely vile and disgusting. Any offence in Iraq is justified after this. People NEED to be rescued over there.
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Post by Soul Wed Aug 20, 2014 10:08 am

They need to be wiped off before they inspire others to follow suit.

It is really creepy to read comments on ISIS articles back in my country (a Muslim one) where people publicly defend their actions. Some people actually believe it is a true caliphate and that it is America who is the actual enemy.

As a Muslim myself I hate some of the shit USA has done in recent years but I support them if they're going to save innocent civilians from these barbarians. The real shame is how silent Islamic leaders are about all of these events.
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Post by RealGunner Wed Aug 20, 2014 10:17 am

Lol Saudi funds them mate(sorry RED). Of course they will be silent.
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Post by Kaladin Wed Aug 20, 2014 10:26 am

@Soul wrote:They need to be wiped off before they inspire others to follow suit.

It is really creepy to read comments on ISIS articles back in my country (a Muslim one) where people publicly defend their actions. Some people actually believe it is a true caliphate and that it is America who is the actual enemy.

As a Muslim myself I hate some of the shit USA has done in recent years but I support them if they're going to save innocent civilians from these barbarians. The real shame is how silent Islamic leaders are about all of these events.


The thing is, how do you neutralize them? Diplomacy is out of the question, while using more aggressive means will cause the deaths of many innocent bystanders. IS their a plausible route in stopping them at the moment?
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Post by Soul Wed Aug 20, 2014 10:39 am

Not sure ES. I would assume that finding and stopping their sponsors would cause a dent but then again, they've already got control of refineries to make money themselves. The longer we take to respond, the harder it would be for the world to stop them IMO
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Post by Soul Wed Aug 20, 2014 10:40 am

@RealGunner wrote:Lol Saudi funds them mate(sorry RED). Of course they will be silent.


I remember reading something like that. Would you have a source I could reference RG?
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Post by RealGunner Wed Aug 20, 2014 10:57 am

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/iraq-crisis-how-saudi-arabia-helped-isis-take-over-the-north-of-the-country-9602312.html
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Post by InterMalia Wed Aug 20, 2014 12:35 pm

@Art Morte wrote:
@BarrileteCosmico wrote:
@Art Morte wrote:Civil wars have happened throughout history and have more or less stabilized nations. Just let them fight out one over there and establish some natural power.
Are you being sarcastic? scratch


A little, but not that much. If this happened a 100 years ago they would fight out a civil war over there and a more stabilized nation would appear. That's how it's gone in so many countries' history. The West have nowadays the means to force peace over there with their military presence, but they don't seem to have a permanent, peaceful solution to the problems in that region.

Although I agree with you then there's the fact that a civil war today is more of a proxy war than between ideologies in a country. An example: Where did ISIS come from? They were funded by other nations to fight in a civil war in Syria.
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Post by Peccadillo Wed Aug 20, 2014 4:25 pm

Yes.. Beyond the Saudi's, I'd be unsurprised if there are a number of Islamist political organisations looking to exploit the political instability in Iraq post-war by backing ISIS.. People were predicting this could happen before the war even started so its beggars belief as to why anyone's surprised.

Arts comment was criticised, but I don't blame him for feeling this way sometimes.

What the west wants to go in and attempt to impose a secular government? Ala. Baathism? Go in and do what exactly? What form of intervention can the west possibly carry out that would actually have medium-long term solution.

If anyone should intervene it should NOT be the U.S - it should be NATO if anyone who have at least a slightly better track record - but even then it should be an absolute last resort.

This is a by-product of war and any immediate solution looks pretty grim.
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Post by Art Morte Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:38 pm

I just think the only somewhat peaceful solution is Western military presence and such an operation was just ended when the U.S. and others pulled their troops out. So, nobody wants to do that (again) and it's not sustainable anyway. Of course just "letting" the people over there to fight out a civil war sounds gruesome, but it looks like there will be some amount of fighting taking place in any scenario.


@RealGunner wrote:ISIS Reportedly Beheads U.S. Journalist James Wright Foley on Camera.

Absolutely vile and disgusting. Any offence in Iraq is justified after this. People NEED to be rescued over there.

Got too curious and watched the video on Liveleak. Vile and idiotic. They had another U.S. prisoner, too, and ended the video saying they'll kill him next...
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Post by RED Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:40 am

I can't bring myself to watch that James Foley beheading video. Saw what he had to say then switched it off.

Brutal.

The executioner sounded like he had a London accent.

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Post by RED Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:42 am

@RealGunner wrote:Lol Saudi funds them mate(sorry RED). Of course they will be silent.


No offence taken mate, I'm not Saudi. I have a dislike for them , not all of them though..
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Post by RealGunner Thu Aug 21, 2014 4:18 am

VAGI. Thought you were from Saudi lol.
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Post by Peccadillo Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:42 pm

@Art Morte wrote:I just think the only somewhat peaceful solution is Western military presence and such an operation was just ended when the U.S. and others pulled their troops out. So, nobody wants to do that (again) and it's not sustainable anyway. Of course just "letting" the people over there to fight out a civil war sounds gruesome, but it looks like there will be some amount of fighting taking place in any scenario.


@RealGunner wrote:ISIS Reportedly Beheads U.S. Journalist James Wright Foley on Camera.

Absolutely vile and disgusting. Any offence in Iraq is justified after this. People NEED to be rescued over there.

Got too curious and watched the video on Liveleak. Vile and idiotic. They had another U.S. prisoner, too, and ended the video saying they'll kill him next...
 
 
As a last resort it shouldn't really be a military presence. It should be a NATO/U.N joint operation and should be purely targeted attacks to destabilise ISIS and have UN peacekeepers on the ground to help aid civilians. Much like Bosnia.
 
It may not be viable though who knows, you can't really just send thousands of peacekeepers into a country with a mob of barely discriminate murderers parading about. Plus, even if you do destabilise ISIS, where does that leave you.
 
I do agree that they shouldn't have pulled out. Pressure from the US to withdraw though. Like they ever cared about the Iraqi people.
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Post by la bestia negra Fri Sep 12, 2014 12:13 am

i dislike the fact that a few big head's in Saudi Arabia are doing the funding and i dislike the fact that there is support for such a disgusting organization in my home country.

i for one had to tell my mother that if they come i will be joining the army ASAP which is definitely an unpleasant experience
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Post by spanky Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:52 am

they are not being financed by SAUDI government, not bahraini not emarati, i can see qatar supporting them though.
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Post by Kaladin Fri Sep 12, 2014 6:27 pm

Yes, additionally Qatar supported the 3rd Reich as well as the Mongolian Empire
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Post by Peccadillo Mon Dec 15, 2014 12:42 pm

This could be the wrong thread as it is not a confirmed Islamic State related incident whatsoever. Just not sure its worthy of its own thread in these early stages.

Large scale siege in a Lindt café in busiest business district in Sydney, Australia. Allegedly 13 hostages.

Holding a flag which closely resembles the Islamic State flag.

Surrounding areas evacuated, including the Sydney Opera House where a suspicious package was found.

Tensions between the state and local Muslim communities have been intensifying over the past year or so with new anti-terror laws imposed by the Abbott government which permit and have resulted in mass raids, detention for extended periods without trial, phone tapping and even permits certain forms of torture.

Bring on the typical rationalisation by the fundamentalists and sympathisers on the Muslim side and the racist bigoted morons who will tar everyone with the same brush on the other.
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Post by mr-r34 Mon Dec 15, 2014 2:14 pm

I work a few minutes from there, today was a good day to work from home.

It's some sort of terrorism, who the *bleep* knows what it really is. Can't see this guy just giving up.
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Post by McAgger Mon Dec 15, 2014 4:14 pm

Holy shit, stay safe Mr-r and all you other Aussie's living in Sydney.
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Post by fatman123 Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:22 pm

I also work within a few minutes of where this happened, I drove to work this morning, and when I was driving out at around 4.30 the city was like a ghost town
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Post by mr-r34 Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:34 pm

Man i really don't wanna go work, I'm not Muslim myself but i have a beard, like a massive *bleep* beard and i am of middle eastern decent, i really CBF for the dirties I'm going to cop, not going to compromise for some *bleep* though.
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Post by fatman123 Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:04 pm

@mr-r34 wrote:Man i really don't wanna go work, I'm not Muslim myself but i have a beard, like a massive *bleep* beard and i am of middle eastern decent, i really CBF for the dirties I'm going to cop, not going to compromise for some *bleep* though.


Can't you work from home again?
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